Has God forgiven a person their sins before they are saved?

[Greg J.]

I'm reposting @ToBeLoved's (excellent) question since there were 159 posts in between it and the original comment I made.

This is basically the case, except that it should be explained more like: because of God's grace, he sent his son to die for us, and as a result he has has forgiven everyone their sins. That's the Good News. Those who believe that and as a result yield to God's lordship are those that end up receiving the benefit of God's grace.

I'm not sure this is correct. I think Jesus paid the penalty for all sin, overcame sin, but only those who accept God's free unmerited gift of salvation are forgiven.

Has God forgiven a person their sins before they are saved?

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (John 3:16-18, 1984 NIV)

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. (James 2:19, 1984 NIV)

1. What is different between these two kinds of belief?

2. What is the event (or events) that are required for a human to be saved? (A change of heart would be an event.)
3. Do the event(s) affect our legal standing with God or his heart for us (or both)?

4. What is it exactly that happens (at the point one accepts God's unmerited gift of salvation) that makes a person change from unsaved to saved?

5. Would it be true for a Christian to tell a non-Christian that his or her sins have been forgiven?

 

[Radrook]

I'm reposting @ToBeLoved's (excellent) question since there were 159 posts in between it and the original comment I made.


Has God forgiven a person their sins before they are saved?

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (John 3:16-18, 1984 NIV)

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

(James 2:19, 1984 NIV)

1. What is different between these two kinds of belief?

He was saying that such a declaration of merely believing in the existence of God, although it is inherently good, as opposed to denying his existence isn't enough. That the person needed to go beyond just that declaration and demonstrate a Christian behavior otherwise his declaration is mere lip service. In short, the demon's declaration that there is a God is inherently good. But that doesn't nullify the fact that it is a demon. In the same manner a person's declaration that there is a God is good, but that won't nullify any lack of activity which is required to show respect for believing in God.

1. What is different between these two kinds of belief?

The only difference is that one is a demon saying it and the other is not.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

Has God forgiven a person their sins before they are saved?

Not only are their sins forgiven before they are "saved", but the forgiveness of sins precedes Christ's death as well; it is, in fact, the primary impetus for the Incarnation. We often cast the problem of sin as an issue in the mind of God; e.g., God refuses to forgive *until* some recompense is made for the sin (most often associated with Christ's blood being used as a pacifying agent). However, this is backward. The problem of sin lies not in God, but in us. God is ready, willing and able to reconcile us to Godself, but we are dead in our sins, slaves to the power of sin and death. Therefore, it is not for the purpose of "enabling" God to forgive us that Christ came, but rather to set us free from the power of sin and the fear of death. Because of Christ's incarnation, death, and resurrection, we are now enabled to live into the forgiveness and desire for reconciliation that God reveals in the person and work of Christ.

3. Do the event(s) affect our legal standing with God or his heart for us (or both)?

There is no "legal" standing with God. God exists in relationship to creation as "person", not through an external mediator (e.g., the "law").

5. Would it be true for a Christian to tell a non-Christian that his or her sins have been forgiven?

Yes. This, after all, IS the gospel!

 

[Ken Behrens]

God forgives every sin. The problem with not being saved is that you do not have Jesus leading you and interceding for you to overcome the sins. Without that, you die in sin and end up in hell.

 

[sdowney717]

No not everyone has had their sins forgiven.
Christ says this.
John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

Acts 26:15-18New King James Version (NKJV)
15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from theJewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

If you do not receive forgiveness of your sins, then you still abide in your sins.

 

[sdowney717]

Colossians 1:13-15New King James Version (NKJV)
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

You can not say this is what has happened to all people, that they are out of darkness and conveyed into the kingdom of Christ, this is only for those He has saved to be a part of His kingdom as His child. Only those have the forgiveness of sins.

Colossians 1:13-15New International Version (NIV)

13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

The Supremacy of the Son of God
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Colossians 1:13-15Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
13 [The Father] has delivered and drawn us to Himself out of the control and the dominion of darkness and has transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,

14 In Whom we have our redemption through His blood, [which means] the forgiveness of our sins.

15 [Now] He is the exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; He is the Firstborn of all creation.

 

[Ken Behrens]

If you do not receive forgiveness of your sins, then you still abide in your sins.

The operative word is not "forgiveness", but "receive". God's forgiveness is always there, because Jesus earned it. Before Jesus, even the OT had animal sacrifices for forgiveness of sins, so God was always offering forgiveness. But just because God offers this, does not mean that everyone "receives" it.

 

[sdowney717]

The operative word is not "forgiveness", but "receive". God's forgiveness is always there, because Jesus earned it. Before Jesus, even the OT had animal sacrifices for forgiveness of sins, so God was always offering forgiveness. But just because God offers this, does not mean that everyone "receives" it.

This does not mean everyone's sins are forgiven before they believe in Christ.

when Paul wrote to the Colossian saints, Paul saying 'we' is not all people but only the saints who were in Christ had their sins forgiven.

.
Colossians 1Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
1 Paul, an apostle (special messenger) of Christ Jesus (the Messiah), by the will of God, and Timothy [our] brother,

2 To the saints (the consecrated people of God) and believing and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace (spiritual favor and blessing) to you and [heart] peace from God our Father

 

[sdowney717]

The concept maybe can be understood here.
Mark 1:4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

If sins are not remitted, then the sins are retained by the individual.

 

[sdowney717]

Romans 4New King James Version (NKJV)
Abraham Justified by Faith
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Notice, for those God has justified by faith in Christ, believing Christ's message of the gospel, their sins, the LORD shall not impute to them their sin.
However the reverse is true, for those who are not justified, God will impute to them their sins.

 

[Ken Behrens]

This does not mean everyone's sins are forgiven before they believe in Christ.

when Paul wrote to the Colossian saints, Paul saying 'we' is not all people but only the saints who were in Christ had their sins forgiven.

.
Colossians 1Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
1 Paul, an apostle (special messenger) of Christ Jesus (the Messiah), by the will of God, and Timothy [our] brother,

2 To the saints (the consecrated people of God) and believing and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace (spiritual favor and blessing) to you and [heart] peace from God our Father

As many times, this is largely a question of how we understand English words. Because we expect to have an apology before we forgive, we think God does as well. The Greek word for forgive (aphiemi) is better translated in the sense of "Sent away". The Hebrew nasa' is similar. The basic idea is that God has always forgiven any sin. To do otherwise would imply that He changes in His regard for us when we repent, and God cannot change. The reason for repentance is that we wish to get rid of our sins from ourselves, like from our past. This is what the word means.

 

[DingDing]

..
Has God forgiven a person their sins before they are saved?
...

No.

 

[Greg J.]

Here's my take on the questions in the original post. I think about the main question in terms of events. That is, what is it that happens, and when.

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, (Hebrews 10:11-13, 1984 NIV)

Fundamentally, Jesus died once for all sins. He doesn't die each time a person turns to God. Jesus' death 2000 years ago was all of the price God needed to pay for all of our sins for all time. It's as if God's forgiveness is a stream of living water. He never again needs to create a new stream. The only question is, is a person willing to receive the benefit of the stream or not. If he genuinely does, he is saved.

While this passage doesn't define the theology, it is a picture of what I mean:

“But blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in him. He will be like a tree planted by the water that sends out its roots by the stream. ... (Jeremiah 17:7-8a, 1984 NIV)

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (John 3:16-18, 1984 NIV)

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. (James 2:19, 1984 NIV)

1. What is different between these two kinds of belief?

Salvation is sometimes described as a "free gift," but it is not. It costs us our (perceived) right to do as we please (aka, be our own god). The kind of belief that saves is a different kind than belief that does not. James calls the latter "dead faith." Fundamentally, saving faith in God includes the fact that we acknowledge that God is GOD, and has the right to define right and wrong for us and hold us accountable. The way I usually describe this is to say that part of saving faith/belief is accepting Jesus as Lord.

Accepting God as GOD means being in agreement that one should be obedient to him. This is the element missing from demons' kind of belief. It is a dead kind of believing in God; it does not acknowledge God as their GOD. A person's (or demon's) deeds show whether they've genuinely accepted God as their GOD or not. Genuinely accepting God this way always causes a reaction in us (works follow genuine faith).

2. What is the event (or events) that are required for a human to be saved? (A change of heart would be an event.)
3. Do the event(s) affect our legal standing with God or his heart for us (or both)?

One must genuinely believe the God is real and accept him as our Lord (as described above). But one must believe in the right God—the one who gave up the life of his son (Jesus) to pay for our sins. Otherwise the person has not accepted the God who has forgiven them in the only way that is possible. On Judgment Day they will be judged by what "god" was in their hearts (one who didn't forgive them their sins).

Humans often think of having both a legal standing with God (whether they're saved or not) as well as what state their relationship with God is in (e.g., thriving or languishing). In practice it is useful for making reference to different parts of our connection to God (such as when God is angry with a saved person or when a saved person doesn't feel like God has saved them).

4. What is it exactly that happens (at the point one accepts God's unmerited gift of salvation) that makes a person change from unsaved to saved?

It's as described in #2, but the events can, but don't need to, happen simultaneously. When they're both true, the person will be found to be in the stream of life (God). Letting the stream be in charge means nothing can snatch the person away.

5. Would it be true for a Christian to tell a non-Christian that his or her sins have been forgiven?

As stated at the top, everyone's sins have been forgiven, but some have not believed as described above. Yielding to God (specifically your right to life) frees God morally to do as he pleases with a person. Without having done that, God will not override a person's free will decision to stay out of the stream and thus cannot (morally) save them. One cannot be saved without yielding one's heart, will, and life to the Lord.

As alexandriaisburning pointed out, this is the Good News! It is not necessarily good news to find out that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. A listener's first reaction may very well be that those who believe are "other people." People need to believe that God has forgiven their sins through the sacrifice of his Son, Jesus Christ, so that's what they need to be told!

 

[EmSw]

Here's my take on the questions in the original post. I think about the main question in terms of events. That is, what is it that happens, and when.

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, (Hebrews 10:11-13, 1984 NIV)

Fundamentally, Jesus died once for all sins. He doesn't die each time a person turns to God. Jesus' death 2000 years ago was all of the price God needed to pay for all of our sins for all time. It's as if God's forgiveness is a stream of living water. He never again needs to create a new stream. The only question is, is a person willing to receive the benefit of the stream or not. If he genuinely does, he is saved.

So, the wages of sin is the death of Jesus?

Maybe Jesus was wrong in telling the churches in Revelation to repent.

 

[Greg J.]

Being unwilling to repent or forgive means we are not willing to reject a stumbling block between us and God. We are holding onto something that is evidence we still want to be our own god. When we do repent or forgive, something in us changes. God doesn't have to change anything about himself (such as now considering us forgiven instead of unforgiven) or do anything (like Jesus dying) for us to be forgiven. He already did what he needed to do for that to happen.

God will judge us according to our hearts. It is what is genuinely in our heart that we need to be concerned with (but we can't change our own hearts directly).

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. (bold mine, Romans 2:5, 1984 NIV)

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. (bold mine, Romans 10:10, 1984 NIV)

See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. (bold mine, Hebrews 3:12, 1984 NIV)

Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. (bold mine, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 1984 NIV)

 

[EmSw]

Being unwilling to repent or forgive means we are not willing to reject a stumbling block between us and God. We are holding onto something that is evidence we still want to be our own god. When we do repent or forgive, something in us changes. God doesn't have to change anything about himself (such as now considering us forgiven instead of unforgiven) or do anything (like Jesus dying) for us to be forgiven. He already did what he needed to do for that to happen.

God will judge us according to our hearts. It is what is genuinely in our heart that we need to be concerned with (but we can't change our own hearts directly).

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?

Why will anyone die because of the transgressions of his heart?

Oh, you didn't answer, is the wages of sin the death of Jesus?

 

[Greg J.]

I don't see the connection to the verse you quote. The only way people die the second death is from their sinful nature and the transgressions of their heart.

Death is separation from God. All sin separates us from God. In this life we have a sinful nature and furthermore, commit sins. After we shed our bodies we will be found in Christ without sin.

When a person sins then asks God to forgive the sin, when does that sin get paid for? Do our words of confession have the power to pay for our sins? If it is God who reacts to our confession by forgiving us our sins, then why wasn't confession sufficient for salvation under the old covenant?

 

[EmSw]

I don't see the connection to the verse you quote. The only way people die the second death is from their sinful nature and the transgressions of their heart.

Death is separation from God. All sin separates us from God. In this life we have a sinful nature and furthermore, commit sins. After we shed our bodies we will be found in Christ without sin.

When a person sins then asks God to forgive the sin, when does that sin get paid for? Do our words of confession have the power to pay for our sins? If it is God who reacts to our confession by forgiving us our sins, then why wasn't confession sufficient for salvation under the old covenant?

Do I need to show you what forgiveness is? Let's see what Strong's says about forgiveness, shall we?

1. release from bondage or imprisonment
   
   
2. forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

Let me ask you, if a person is pardoned, are his debts paid? Or, does he still have to pay for them?
If a person is remitted of the penalty, does he still have to pay the penalty?

It's not the words that bring remission, it's the change of mind along with change of lifestyle. A change of lifestyle includes ridding your heart of evil.

 

[pat34lee]

1. What is different between these two kinds of belief?

Hebrew is a physical language. There is always a component of
either something tangible or something physically being done.
Faith, or belief, is not what you think. It's what you do.

 

[Geralt]

Of course no. However if the main question is changed to simply 'has God forgiven the sins of His elect ?' Of course yes.

By the process of imputation presented by Paul in romans 5:12 ff, Adams sin and downfall represented the entire human race even before they came to existence and so are subject to fallen nature, so by the same rule of corporate identity, christ suffering and paying the penalty for the sins of his elect secures their salvation before the many of them has not been born yet or hasn't yet accepted the gospel until God 's due time. Such is the marvelous gospel.

I'm reposting @ToBeLoved's (excellent) question since there were 159 posts in between it and the original comment I made.


Has God forgiven a person their sins before they are saved?

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (John 3:16-18, 1984 NIV)

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. (James 2:19, 1984 NIV)

1. What is different between these two kinds of belief?

2. What is the event (or events) that are required for a human to be saved? (A change of heart would be an event.)
3. Do the event(s) affect our legal standing with God or his heart for us (or both)?

4. What is it exactly that happens (at the point one accepts God's unmerited gift of salvation) that makes a person change from unsaved to saved?

5. Would it be true for a Christian to tell a non-Christian that his or her sins have been forgiven?