Hard Determinism, Soft Determinism, or “Pot Luck”

[Marvin Knox]

Hard Determinism, Soft Determinism, or “Pot Luck”

OK! Right off the bat the “Pot Luck” category was meant to get everyone’s attention – although I really don’t know what else to call it in all seriousness.

Regarding predestination – we have two basic view points.

The first is what many call hard determinism and is held by many very staunch Calvinists. This view, it might be said, believes that God “wrote the script” for everything that happens including how sin and evil play out.

The second is what many call soft determinism and is held by many generally Reformed theologians both Calvinist and otherwise. This view is that predestination and free will are completely compatible with each other. It is possible to predestine an act without making the creature a “robot” or a “puppet”. This happens to be my view. It may also be seen as a form of what is sometimes called “Molinism” although not necessarily lined up exactly in all case one with the other in that camp.

The third position is what I’m calling pot luck for want of another term. This view discounts the predestination of all things completely (including very heartfelt feelings against sinful acts being predetermined). They believe that men are free to choose what they do on their own and that their choices are not predestined to happen.

It may be hard to believe – but I would like this to not turn into the usual food fight. I would honestly like to know how each person views these things.

I would like to have everyone go beyond just stating their view and letting it go at that. I’d like to know how you view God operating in His providential control of the world.

To that end – let’s start from what I believe is clear from scripture (although apparently not in the eyes of all). That is that the death of Christ was predestined to happen. After all He was slain in the plan of God before the foundation of the world. He did tell us that for the very reason of His sacrificial death He came into the world.

This death involved such obviously sinful acts of men that it is a very clear cut and good starting and stopping point in our discussion. It will hopefully keep us from drifting off into other sins like the holocaust and robbery - and end up in a food fight.

I’d like to hear from all positions.

For my part – I understand the hard determinism position. I disagree. But I understand it.

I obviously understand the soft determinism position of course. At least I do my take on it.

But the other position is the one that I just can’t understand. It’s also the majority position here and in the Christian world apparently – which really makes it difficult not knowing how people think in this group.

Again – just using the crucifixion as a focal point – how does this work for those who do not hold one of the first two positions.

Be specific please. Did God see what men would do and then come up with a way to make it work for Him? Did He design the sacrificial system around what He saw was going to happen? Did He commit to the incarnation after He saw what would happen if He was incarnated?

You get the idea I suppose. But obviously this is not coming out exactly right because I really don’t know how you think if you are of that position. But you tell me in clear words how the pieces fit together please.

Please try to zero in on the crucifixion because it poses some interesting problems and will keep us on track IMO.

Be specific because I really don’t understand the third position in particular at all.

But let’s try to articulate how these things work from every position – mine included.

 

[EmSw]

Hard Determinism, Soft Determinism, or “Pot Luck”

OK! Right off the bat the “Pot Luck” category was meant to get everyone’s attention – although I really don’t know what else to call it in all seriousness.

Regarding predestination – we have two basic view points.

The first is what many call hard determinism and is held by many very staunch Calvinists. This view, it might be said, believes that God “wrote the script” for everything that happens including how sin and evil play out.

The second is what many call soft determinism and is held by many generally Reformed theologians both Calvinist and otherwise. This view is that predestination and free will are completely compatible with each other. It is possible to predestine an act without making the creature a “robot” or a “puppet”. This happens to be my view. It may also be seen as a form of what is sometimes called “Molinism” although not necessarily lined up exactly in all case one with the other in that camp.

The third position is what I’m calling pot luck for want of another term. This view discounts the predestination of all things completely (including very heartfelt feelings against sinful acts being predetermined). They believe that men are free to choose what they do on their own and that their choices are not predestined to happen.

It may be hard to believe – but I would like this to not turn into the usual food fight. I would honestly like to know how each person views these things.

I would like to have everyone go beyond just stating their view and letting it go at that. I’d like to know how you view God operating in His providential control of the world.

To that end – let’s start from what I believe is clear from scripture (although apparently not in the eyes of all). That is that the death of Christ was predestined to happen. After all He was slain in the plan of God before the foundation of the world. He did tell us that for the very reason of His sacrificial death He came into the world.

This death involved such obviously sinful acts of men that it is a very clear cut and good starting and stopping point in our discussion. It will hopefully keep us from drifting off into other sins like the holocaust and robbery - and end up in a food fight.

I’d like to hear from all positions.

For my part – I understand the hard determinism position. I disagree. But I understand it.

I obviously understand the soft determinism position of course. At least I do my take on it.

But the other position is the one that I just can’t understand. It’s also the majority position here and in the Christian world apparently – which really makes it difficult not knowing how people think in this group.

Again – just using the crucifixion as a focal point – how does this work for those who do not hold one of the first two positions.

Be specific please. Did God see what men would do and then come up with a way to make it work for Him? Did He design the sacrificial system around what He saw was going to happen? Did He commit to the incarnation after He saw what would happen if He was incarnated?

You get the idea I suppose. But obviously this is not coming out exactly right because I really don’t know how you think if you are of that position. But you tell me in clear words how the pieces fit together please.

Please try to zero in on the crucifixion because it poses some interesting problems and will keep us on track IMO.

Be specific because I really don’t understand the third position in particular at all.

But let’s try to articulate how these things work from every position – mine included.

I've said this before, but I think it got lost in the shuffle.

Was there ever a time God did NOT know what would happen, anywhere, anytime, any place? Was there a time His omniscience was lacking?

It is my belief He has ALWAYS known ALL things for ALL times. Nothing escapes His eternal knowledge.

Now, if He has ALWAYS known ALL things for ALL times, why does He have to predestine things to occur? Is His knowledge insufficient in that He has to predestine things in order to make things occur according to His knowledge? If He DID NOT predestine things to occur, would they occur any differently than His eternal knowledge?

Take the crucifixion. If He DID NOT predestine for it to occur, would it occur any differently than His eternal knowledge of it? Things will occur according to His knowledge, WITHOUT PREDESTINATION! Therefore, I say, predestination is unnecessary, even, useless, if His eternal knowledge is true, complete, and divine.

There's your pot luck. Does anyone believe things would occur any differently than His eternal knowledge of them, if He didn't predestine it?

 

[Butch5]

Hard Determinism, Soft Determinism, or “Pot Luck”

OK! Right off the bat the “Pot Luck” category was meant to get everyone’s attention – although I really don’t know what else to call it in all seriousness.

Regarding predestination – we have two basic view points.

The first is what many call hard determinism and is held by many very staunch Calvinists. This view, it might be said, believes that God “wrote the script” for everything that happens including how sin and evil play out.

The second is what many call soft determinism and is held by many generally Reformed theologians both Calvinist and otherwise. This view is that predestination and free will are completely compatible with each other. It is possible to predestine an act without making the creature a “robot” or a “puppet”. This happens to be my view. It may also be seen as a form of what is sometimes called “Molinism” although not necessarily lined up exactly in all case one with the other in that camp.

The third position is what I’m calling pot luck for want of another term. This view discounts the predestination of all things completely (including very heartfelt feelings against sinful acts being predetermined). They believe that men are free to choose what they do on their own and that their choices are not predestined to happen.

It may be hard to believe – but I would like this to not turn into the usual food fight. I would honestly like to know how each person views these things.

I would like to have everyone go beyond just stating their view and letting it go at that. I’d like to know how you view God operating in His providential control of the world.

To that end – let’s start from what I believe is clear from scripture (although apparently not in the eyes of all). That is that the death of Christ was predestined to happen. After all He was slain in the plan of God before the foundation of the world. He did tell us that for the very reason of His sacrificial death He came into the world.

This death involved such obviously sinful acts of men that it is a very clear cut and good starting and stopping point in our discussion. It will hopefully keep us from drifting off into other sins like the holocaust and robbery - and end up in a food fight.

I’d like to hear from all positions.

For my part – I understand the hard determinism position. I disagree. But I understand it.

I obviously understand the soft determinism position of course. At least I do my take on it.

But the other position is the one that I just can’t understand. It’s also the majority position here and in the Christian world apparently – which really makes it difficult not knowing how people think in this group.

Again – just using the crucifixion as a focal point – how does this work for those who do not hold one of the first two positions.

Be specific please. Did God see what men would do and then come up with a way to make it work for Him? Did He design the sacrificial system around what He saw was going to happen? Did He commit to the incarnation after He saw what would happen if He was incarnated?

You get the idea I suppose. But obviously this is not coming out exactly right because I really don’t know how you think if you are of that position. But you tell me in clear words how the pieces fit together please.

Please try to zero in on the crucifixion because it poses some interesting problems and will keep us on track IMO.

Be specific because I really don’t understand the third position in particular at all.

But let’s try to articulate how these things work from every position – mine included.

Well, you may have to create a fourth category for me. I believe that what you've stated in points 1 and 2 has nothing to do with the doctrine of Predestination in the Bible. Does God predestine some things? Sure. Does He predestine all things? No. The fact that we are told that some things in Scriptures were predestined shows that not everything was predestined. If everything was predestined then there would be no need for the writers to tell us some things were predestined.

The doctrine of Predestination in the Scriptures, as I see it, is God laying out His plan. God has predestined some things to make certain that His overall plan will be brought to fruition.

 

[Aijalon]

The first is what many call hard determinism and is held by many very staunch Calvinists. This view, it might be said, believes that God “wrote the script” for everything that happens including how sin and evil play out.

This cannot be true because this would make God the source of evil, it simply fails the basic sense test. It violates God's holiness. It is against all appropriate hermeneutic principle. Secondarily, if all things in the universe are scripted by God, God would not have any influence over the future from here onward, it is a program. never the less, God DOES take responsibility for sin on our behalf, and resolved it based on his plan for the future. The future, in my estimate, is not a "thing" and does not "exist" in so far as scientists view the issue of "future" as a continuum that can be controlled. In my estimation the future can only be influenced within the present, and God is very present. He doesn't alter future events before they happen, nor does he operate "outside time". He simply has such a firm grasp on the present, that all things future are ultimately plotted out by him unhindered.

The second is what many call soft determinism and is held by many generally Reformed theologians both Calvinist and otherwise. This view is that predestination and free will are completely compatible with each other. It is possible to predestine an act without making the creature a “robot” or a “puppet”. This happens to be my view. It may also be seen as a form of what is sometimes called “Molinism” although not necessarily lined up exactly in all case one with the other in that camp.

The free will of man the thing which the Beast Image is depicting. God will kill that beast, and subject man's collective will to his own. It might be worth resolving "free will" as related to the difference between free choice, and desires. The will of a being is what I define as the desire of that being, and God's will are his desires, or, "wants". The ability to make independent choices, only comes after the influence of the inner will.

So, I disagree that free will and predestination are "compatible" per se. Free will is ultimately understood as a completely independent will, and as we aught to know, all independent will is lost without God's influence (all stray sheep). In other words the "free will of man" is one to one with the rebellion of man, it is void of God's mind. God must implant his mind and desires into us, in order that we are able to change direct, repent, and follow Christ. His will implanted in us, is not necessarily the same as faith, because faith requires a certail level of belief in particular information. The will of God in us, does, I suppose, work compatibly with our own will. But.... I think God's will also becomes - ours.

"You who make it out, that the human will is something placed in a free medium, and left to itself, certainly make it out, at the same time, that there is an endeavor which can exert itself either way; because you make both God and the devil to be at a distance, spectators only, as it were, of this mutable and "Free Will"; though you do not believe, that they are impellers and agitators of that bondage will, the most hostility opposed to each other. Admitting, therefore, this part of your faith only, my sentiment stands firmly established, and "Free Will" lies prostate. For, it must either be, that the kingdom of satan in man is nothing at all, and thus Christ will be made to lie; or, if his kingdom is as Christ describes, "Free Will" must be nothing but a beast of burden, the captive of satan, which cannot be liberated, unless the devil first be cast out by the finger of God"
Martin Luther​

The third position is what I’m calling pot luck for want of another term. This view discounts the predestination of all things completely (including very heartfelt feelings against sinful acts being predetermined). They believe that men are free to choose what they do on their own and that their choices are not predestined to happen.

In my mind this is not all that far off from a possibility. There is to me this trouble of parables. Parables have a nasty habit of being over analyzed, or, underappreciated. If man is a vine, and some of the braches are "wild", how then does this NOT give credit to the pot luck idea? I think it does.

In essence, God created a living and active system by which new life is created that has a certain random influence - sexual reproduction. If we suppose that the seed of faith (children of God) were tied to a certain combination of DNA, and that likewise the seeds of the devil (tares - children of the devil) are defects in that spiritual DNA (most of DNA code is unknown what it does) we may conclude, naturally, that God is on overwatch to see how any particular human being will be turn out

I would like to have everyone go beyond just stating their view and letting it go at that. I’d like to know how you view God operating in His providential control of the world.

To that end – let’s start from what I believe is clear from scripture (although apparently not in the eyes of all). That is that the death of Christ was predestined to happen. After all He was slain in the plan of God before the foundation of the world. He did tell us that for the very reason of His sacrificial death He came into the world.

This death involved such obviously sinful acts of men that it is a very clear cut and good starting and stopping point in our discussion. It will hopefully keep us from drifting off into other sins like the holocaust and robbery - and end up in a food fight.

Providentially speaking, his control over things in the scheme of the world, to me, is the issue of God influencing world affairs through his interaction directly with physical man.
- Dreams
- Miracles
- Teachings
- Laws/Moses
- Jesus/Wisdom

Those men who he can see have the spirit of God (a living growing collective organism of spiritual energy controlled centrally by the mind of God and symbolically called "the body of Christ") are the men who God interacts with to enact change in world events. The control of world affairs then, is done by mankind, as man has dominion, and God's role to play is to CONVINCE men to follow his plan. In throughout this effort of God to reign in free will and subject man to his will, he does this not by puppeteering, but through relational love and Fatherly discipline. All we evern learned of good parenting comes from this Holy God. The sheep Jesus describs are the human beings that have the desire of God planted in them. The desire of God cannot take root in unfertile soil... the soil of the earth is the fundamental nature, and basic structure of what is good about creation. (the clay and iron of Daniel's ten toes is the image of man's wild mind and the mind of the body of Christ not mixing)

The collective consciousness

As weird as this sounds, the world we have before us is demonizing the concept of the collective mind, rather, it suggests that self determination and reason are to be worshipped. God's governance of the universe is an organic process that synergistically works with the spirit of mankind but in the end times God's mind will be rejected and the world will fall into the sin of following the wild mind of man (man's own reason). Because God operates in two dimensions, spiritual, and physical, God can interact with us in spirit, yet influence our physical environment in a way that reinforces exactly what he wants. As we learn to see the results of God's plan and will over us and the world, we begin to operate more and more efficiently with his mind and will - we put on the mind of Christ.

Again – just using the crucifixion as a focal point – how does this work for those who do not hold one of the first two positions.

To answer your main question, I would say that in Soteriology speak, God has always been forgiving the sin of man, and, in terms of his plan for creation, the Son of man, Jesus Christ was not the initiation of the first forgiven sins, but that he was the demonstration of that forgiveness in physical form for the first time. As He is One to One with the Father, he was the manifestation of the will of God. The forgiveness of sin took place at the behest of Jesus, in Gathesemane, even BEFORE the cross. Bear in mind he shed his blood over the garden! His death was a separate act that ended the sacrificial system (fulfilled and perfected, actually) of Levitical Law for Israel. The death made him the Lamb, but before he was Lamb (actually John called him the Lamb as his identity even before his Baptism) he was already Mediator between God and man (by forgiving sins).

Be specific please. Did God see what men would do and then come up with a way to make it work for Him? Did He design the sacrificial system around what He saw was going to happen? Did He commit to the incarnation after He saw what would happen if He was incarnated?

I think you are making a cardinal mistake of human reason - which is not your fault. Greek thinking reasons that the future is something God sees "into", this makes the future EXTERNAL to God, and as such, the future becomes this entity that holds power that apparently opposes God.

What if I told you that the future DOES NOT EXIST. There is no past, there is no future, there is only the present. If we project God's supposed thought process to events that happened in our past, but in the future to God, how are we to say God even looked into the future? If there is no future to look into, why would he look there. Why would he create a "future" as a thing he can go forward to? Simply because he speaks about the surety of some future events in the here and now, why does this give the future a scientific existence. What if God is just so sure of the outcome, he simply says it, and that's that!

Be specific because I really don’t understand the third position in particular at all.

But let’s try to articulate how these things work from every position – mine included.

Well, I suppose I may be a pot luck person but I find it likely that my ideas here are going to be unique, I may be the only dude that holds such views of science and the future, but hey, maybe you'll have something to chew on.

 

[Aijalon]

I've said this before, but I think it got lost in the shuffle.

Was there ever a time God did NOT know what would happen, anywhere, anytime, any place? Was there a time His omniscience was lacking?

It is my belief He has ALWAYS known ALL things for ALL times. Nothing escapes His eternal knowledge.

Now, if He has ALWAYS known ALL things for ALL times, why does He have to predestine things to occur? Is His knowledge insufficient in that He has to predestine things in order to make things occur according to His knowledge? If He DID NOT predestine things to occur, would they occur any differently than His eternal knowledge?

Take the crucifixion. If He DID NOT predestine for it to occur, would it occur any differently than His eternal knowledge of it? Things will occur according to His knowledge, WITHOUT PREDESTINATION! Therefore, I say, predestination is unnecessary, even, useless, if His eternal knowledge is true, complete, and divine.

There's your pot luck. Does anyone believe things would occur any differently than His eternal knowledge of them, if He didn't predestine it?

I do like how you make the issue of predestination more or less irrelevant, it's thinking outside the box. But as much as like the question, in tandem with the last post I made, my answer is, Yes. Yes, things would occur differently if God did not predestine them.

One of the reasons is that if God were not to predestine things to occur, the enemy that works against God, would ruin creation. The summary effect of sin entering the world is that it is a destructive force that runs against God's will. God must actively work (or, tend) his creation, in order that it turn out the way he wants.

Why he did not choose to create a world just the way he wants, or, how God was able to also design within his creation an agent of evil, the devil, to try to thwart his plan, is a bit beyond me - but I will endeavor an answer. The answer to why, is that God seeks an opponent, or, in other words, challenges himself. Take for instance Jacob's wrestling match, with God. God set in motion certain free and wild agents of free will, that, without maintenance on his part, will decay, and die. Creation is dependent on God's abiding love and Grace to save it from inevitable death. God did, in essence, create the world, and strap a bomb to it. He alone has the code to disarm it. His predestined plan is to disarm each part of the bomb, one piece at a time, until the Creature - man, is free from the bomb.

 

[bling]

You might have to have a fourth alternative which may not fall under your third alternative:


God “predestined” what all He and Christ would do before man came on the scene, so it was fully determined Christ would go to the cross, given the obvious messy situation humans would get into.

God has “predestined” the salvation of those that will accept His invitation and show up at the banquet (like Jesus’ parables on the subject). All those saved were invited.

At the same moment God decides He will make a particular human in God’s time frame that human has been born, lived, and died, so God knows all the free will choices every person made prior to the person being made (God’s foreknowledge), but God did not control these free will choices.

All mature adults have very limited autonomous free will and they may only have the free will choice of humbly accepting or rejecting God’s charity (Love/grace/mercy/forgiveness). If a person continues to the point they will never accept God’s Charity, that person could loss all their free will (since it has no value for them) and take on a lesser purpose for their life.

It would not be hard for any of us with our very limited knowledge of humans to know powerful people would want Jesus killed if He came to earth (you see how they treated the prophets). God knows people much better then we could ever know them, before the earth began.

 

[elopez]

OK! Right off the bat the “Pot Luck” category was meant to get everyone’s attention – although I really don’t know what else to call it in all seriousness.

Ultimately this is an indeterminist position. Usually known as libertarianism. According to this view, determinism in any sense does not exist, and man's free will has more independence in regards specifically to Salvation as well as himself.

The first is what many call hard determinism and is held by many very staunch Calvinists. This view, it might be said, believes that God “wrote the script” for everything that happens including how sin and evil play out.

Hard determinism concludes free will does not exist. I believe scripture points to moral responsibility of man, and that moral responsibility amd free will are correlated. So that if we are morally accountable for something, we have free will, no matter what free will may mean or may not mean. I think to get a more clear understanding of free will we should look at what it is that makes man morally liable for his actions. Either way, I believe hard determinism is false.

The second is what many call soft determinism and is held by many generally Reformed theologians both Calvinist and otherwise. This view is that predestination and free will are completely compatible with each other. It is possible to predestine an act without making the creature a “robot” or a “puppet”. This happens to be my view. It may also be seen as a form of what is sometimes called “Molinism” although not necessarily lined up exactly in all case one with the other in that camp.

I align with this view as well. Predestination is true. Free will exists. The two complement each other. Molinism gets into all sorts of unnecessary assumptions about God's divine knowkedge, which I think result in misunderstanding.

The third position is what I’m calling pot luck for want of another term. This view discounts the predestination of all things completely (including very heartfelt feelings against sinful acts being predetermined). They believe that men are free to choose what they do on their own and that their choices are not predestined to happen.

Scripture is clear on predestination and it's occurrence. To deny it is plain dishonesty. God's omniscient nature also implies determinism in the logical sense. God as Creator implies determinism in the causal sense.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Ultimately this is an indeterminist position. Usually known as libertarianism. According to this view, determinism in any sense does not exist, and man's free will has more independence in regards specifically to Salvation as well as himself.

Hard determinism concludes free will does not exist. I believe scripture points to moral responsibility of man, and that moral responsibility amd free will are correlated. So that if we are morally accountable for something, we have free will, no matter what free will may mean or may not mean. I think to get a more clear understanding of free will we should look at what it is that makes man morally liable for his actions. Either way, I believe hard determinism is false.

I align with this view as well. Predestination is true. Free will exists. The two complement each other. Molinism gets into all sorts of unnecessary assumptions about God's divine knowkedge, which I think result in misunderstanding.

Scripture is clear on predestination and it's occurrence. To deny it is plain dishonesty. God's omniscient nature also implies determinism in the logical sense. God as Creator implies determinism in the causal sense.

I agree with you right down the line.

And you're right. Libertarian-ism would have been a very good term for the 3rd position. But then there wouldn't have been as many responses as seem to be coming down the pike.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Was there ever a time God did NOT know what would happen, anywhere, anytime, any place? Was there a time His omniscience was lacking?

It is my belief He has ALWAYS known ALL things for ALL times. Nothing escapes His eternal knowledge.

I don't know anyone from any group who would disagree with you and say otherwise.

Now, if He has ALWAYS known ALL things for ALL times, why does He have to predestine things to occur? Is His knowledge insufficient in that He has to predestine things in order to make things occur according to His knowledge? If He DID NOT predestine things to occur, would they occur any differently than His eternal knowledge?

That's not a pressing "need to know" question for me.

But if it is for you - you will likely ask Him when the time is right to do so in the future when you see Him face to face.

Things will occur according to His knowledge, WITHOUT PREDESTINATION! Therefore, I say, predestination is unnecessary, even, useless, if His eternal knowledge is true, complete, and divine.

Since God says very clearly in His Word that He predestines at least some things -- it seems a little bold of you to tell Him it was “unnecessary and even useless” for Him to do so.

There's your pot luck. Does anyone believe things would occur any differently than His eternal knowledge of them, if He didn't predestine it?

Certainly not me!

They were predestined to happen exactly as they happen from the split second God put the ball in play.

Since belief in God’s omniscience absolutely requires that you also believe that everything that happens is predestined to happen according to that omniscience -- the question is, “Who or what predestines it to happen”

Since God’s the only one around except those He creates and sustains for His own pleasure – I believe it is God who predestines all things that happen in His creation.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I’m going to assume that anyone with a modicum of knowledge of scripture believes that God predestines at least some things (even if EmSw has a bone to pick with God over it''s "unnecessary uselessness").

Of course - some don’t believe that He predestines “all thing” that happen – because (they reason) that would include sin and God would then be the author of sin.

The crucifixion of Jesus was obviously a sinful act. So it was not (according to this group) predestined to happen. (THIS IN SPITE OF GOD’S TELLING US OTHERWISE.)

But let’s go ahead and say that there is an argument to be made for God’s not saying that He predestined it and that He was saying something else.

Men must have free will to choose to crucify or not to crucify or it would not really be free will (they reason).

I agree by the way. It's just that I believe that predestination and free will are completely compatible.

So – I’ve worked through my beliefs backward and forward and I assume that this crowd has done the same with theirs before they opened their mouths to teach on the internet.

So- please tell me how this all works.

If men could choose to not crucify the Lord – how would this work in regards to God’s choice to be incarnated, the system of sacrifice that He set up to foreshadow it and all the rest of the questions you have thought through?

Wouldn’t God have had to provide a parallel set of prophecies along with the ones about shed blood – that included, say, a redemption by Christ based on Him simply managing to live to, say,, 40 years of age without sinning?

I’m being a little silly you say? Well then – please tell me how these and other things work in your view. There are so many variables that I’d like to know your thoughts on at least a few of them.

I’ve been through these kinds of things many times trying to understand your mind set - and I’m not even listing all of the problems involved. You must know them all if you are teaching this position to others.

I don’t get it. But I’m willing to listen.

Surely those of you who teach here in the forum have been through the problems involved with at least the crucifixion if not all other sins many times.

Please help me out here.

 

[EmSw]

I do like how you make the issue of predestination more or less irrelevant, it's thinking outside the box. But as much as like the question, in tandem with the last post I made, my answer is, Yes. Yes, things would occur differently if God did not predestine them.

I guess my question is...does it take 'predestination' to make His omniscience come to pass? Is His omniscience lacking without 'predestination'? Will things He absolutely, eternally knew would occur, not occur unless He predestines them?

One of the reasons is that if God were not to predestine things to occur, the enemy that works against God, would ruin creation. The summary effect of sin entering the world is that it is a destructive force that runs against God's will. God must actively work (or, tend) his creation, in order that it turn out the way he wants.

But, doesn't omniscience already know how the enemy would work? When did God NOT know what the enemy would do? If so, how would 'predestination' change His omniscience?

Why he did not choose to create a world just the way he wants, or, how God was able to also design within his creation an agent of evil, the devil, to try to thwart his plan, is a bit beyond me - but I will endeavor an answer. The answer to why, is that God seeks an opponent, or, in other words, challenges himself. Take for instance Jacob's wrestling match, with God. God set in motion certain free and wild agents of free will, that, without maintenance on his part, will decay, and die. Creation is dependent on God's abiding love and Grace to save it from inevitable death. God did, in essence, create the world, and strap a bomb to it. He alone has the code to disarm it. His predestined plan is to disarm each part of the bomb, one piece at a time, until the Creature - man, is free from the bomb.

I've never heard of the 'bomb theory' before. So, it is God's predestined plan to 'disarm' His predestined plan for man.

Hey, if that's what you desire to believe, I won't argue with it.

 

[AndOne]

I've said this before, but I think it got lost in the shuffle.

Was there ever a time God did NOT know what would happen, anywhere, anytime, any place? Was there a time His omniscience was lacking?

It is my belief He has ALWAYS known ALL things for ALL times. Nothing escapes His eternal knowledge.

Now, if He has ALWAYS known ALL things for ALL times, why does He have to predestine things to occur? Is His knowledge insufficient in that He has to predestine things in order to make things occur according to His knowledge? If He DID NOT predestine things to occur, would they occur any differently than His eternal knowledge?

Take the crucifixion. If He DID NOT predestine for it to occur, would it occur any differently than His eternal knowledge of it? Things will occur according to His knowledge, WITHOUT PREDESTINATION! Therefore, I say, predestination is unnecessary, even, useless, if His eternal knowledge is true, complete, and divine.

There's your pot luck. Does anyone believe things would occur any differently than His eternal knowledge of them, if He didn't predestine it?

Except the Bible specifically uses the words predestine and election....

 

[EmSw]

I don't know anyone from any group who would disagree with you and say otherwise.

Excellent. Since God has always known all things, it is your belief, He must predestine those things to happen or they won't occur according to His omniscience?

If He doesn't predestine all things, will they occur differently from His eternal knowledge? If so, then it seems omniscience is lacking without predestination.

That's not a pressing "need to know" question for me.

But if it is for you - you will likely ask Him when the time is right to do so in the future when you see Him face to face.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to know His truth now, I would surely hope. It is my contention that all things will occur exactly according to His omniscience, even without predestination. Therefore, it is my belief, predestination is unnecessary. That like buying a new white car, then having it painted white to make sure it is white.

Since God says very clearly in His Word that He predestines at least some things -- it seems a little bold of you to tell Him it was “unnecessary and even useless” for Him to do so.

As I've said, if He did not predestine anything to occur, would it occur any differently than His eternal omniscience of it?

Here is my challenge to you. Jesus said, 'that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established'. If we are to establish, fix, or uphold Paul's words, we need another witness or two who will stand with Paul's words. Please find them, and then we can establish, or uphold them. I am not saying they are not truth, but in order to establish them, we need another witness or two, so as to make it a firm doctrine.

Certainly not me!

They were predestined to happen exactly as they happen from the split second God put the ball in play.

However, I have yet to find any supporting scripture which would make your statement true. How would man know what exactly happened in eternity past, unless he makes conjectures?

Since belief in God’s omniscience absolutely requires that you also believe that everything that happens is predestined to happen according to that omniscience -- the question is, “Who or what predestines it to happen”

Nothing has to be predestined in order to happen according to omniscience. IT WILL HAPPEN ACCORDING TO HIS OMNISCIENCE...period!

Since God’s the only one around except those He creates and sustains for His own pleasure – I believe it is God who predestines all things that happen in His creation.

I have no problem with you believing this. I just take a different course than you Marvin. However, I do wish you well.

 

[elopez]

if He did not predestine anything to occur, would it occur any differently than His eternal omniscience of it?

I would say predestination differs from omniscience in that the former requires more than God just having foreknowledge yet the power and will to make an event transpire. Foreknowledge does not cause what is foreknown to happen to happen.

So far an example of what is said to be predestined is the crucifixion. So God not only foreknew of it, but acted as to make it happen. Under that assumption, if God does not predestine something, it will not happen as He is not causing it to happen.

 

[Marvin Knox]

EmSw said: ↑"Was there ever a time God did NOT know what would happen, anywhere, anytime, any place? Was there a time His omniscience was lacking? It is my belief He has ALWAYS known ALL things for ALL times. Nothing escapes His eternal knowledge."

To which Marvin Knox said: ↑"I don't know anyone from any group who would disagree with you and say otherwise."

Excellent. Since God has always known all things, it is your belief, He must predestine those things to happen or they won't occur according to His omniscience?

If He doesn't predestine all things, will they occur differently from His eternal knowledge? If so, then it seems omniscience is lacking without predestination.

I don’t want to get into insults with you as I have in the past. But where do you get off telling me what my beliefs are?

No one said that anything would happen different than He knew.

When God knows all things possible – then He acts in His creation in such a way to make one of those possible things an assured reality – that action is the act of predestining that all that He knew was possible would actually become reality.

Predestination is not an official document that declares that something must happen.

However the sending forth of His Word is His "decree" that it must happen. His Word will not return to Him without accomplishing it all. His Word is active in multiplied trillions of ways in every square inch of His creation including you. He holds all thing together and indeed in Him all things consist.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to know His truth now, I would surely hope. It is my contention that all things will occur exactly according to His omniscience, even without predestination. Therefore, it is my belief, predestination is unnecessary. That like buying a new white car, then having it painted white to make sure it is white.

What exactly do you think predestination is? Do you think it's a printed document that one can lay his hands on?

Predestination - just like decree - are theological terms to express certain realities.

They are not --- well --- I don't know where you are coming from.

Your thoughts seem to be rather shallow to me.

Here is my challenge to you. Jesus said, 'that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established'. If we are to establish, fix, or uphold Paul's words, we need another witness or two who will stand with Paul's words. Please find them, and then we can establish, or uphold them. I am not saying they are not truth, but in order to establish them, we need another witness or two, so as to make it a firm doctrine.

You don’t make sense sometimes. This will likely be my last direct post to you.

However, I have yet to find any supporting scripture which would make your statement true. How would man know what exactly happened in eternity past, unless he makes conjectures?

I have no idea what you are talking about. You seem to be just arguing to be arguing.

Nothing has to be predestined in order to happen according to omniscience. IT WILL HAPPEN ACCORDING TO HIS OMNISCIENCE...period!

Again – what on earth do you think predestination is – an official document with His stamp on it?

I had hoped that if I responded to you you would reason clearly and we could even bury the hatchet at least on this one thread.

But you seem to have the idea that your thoughts are weighty and make sense. They are anything but.

This is my last direct post to you.

 

[EmSw]

I would say predestination differs from omniscience in that the former requires more than God just having foreknowledge yet the power and will to make an event transpire. Foreknowledge does not cause what is foreknown to happen to happen.

So far an example of what is said to be predestined is the crucifixion. So God not only foreknew of it, but acted as to make it happen. Under that assumption, if God does not predestine something, it will not happen as He is not causing it to happen.

Do you believe God lives in the past, present, and future? Or, does He live outside of time? Do you believe all things are present before Him?

Predestination means to determine, decide, ordain, or appoint beforehand. With God, there is no 'beforehand'. To put God within the confines of time, is to constrain Him.

When does God determine how He deals with man? Is it in eternity past, or is it during man's lifetime?

We are given insight to this from His word of truth.

Zechariah 1:6
Yet surely My words and My statutes, Which I commanded My servants the prophets, Did they not overtake your fathers? “So they returned and said: ‘Just as the Lord of hosts determined to do to us, according to our ways and according to our deeds, So He has dealt with us.’”

Beautiful words of truth! Here we are given insight to God determining how He deals with man. He doesn't 'predetermine' in time past; but rather, He determines during man's life on this earth. I choose to believe these eternal words of truth. However, man may freely believe any way he chooses.

 

[EmSw]

EmSw said: ↑"Was there ever a time God did NOT know what would happen, anywhere, anytime, any place? Was there a time His omniscience was lacking? It is my belief He has ALWAYS known ALL things for ALL times. Nothing escapes His eternal knowledge."

To which Marvin Knox said: ↑"I don't know anyone from any group who would disagree with you and say otherwise."

I don’t want to get into insults with you as I have in the past. But where do you get off telling me what my beliefs are?

No one said that anything would happen different than He knew.

When God knows all things possible – then He acts in His creation in such a way to make one of those possible things an assured reality – that action is the act of predestining that all that He knew was possible would actually become reality.

Predestination is not an official document that declares that something must happen.

However the sending forth of His Word is His "decree" that it must happen. His Word will not return to Him without accomplishing it all. His Word is active in multiplied trillions of ways in every square inch of His creation including you. He holds all thing together and indeed in Him all things consist.

What exactly do you think predestination is? Do you think it's a printed document that one can lay his hands on?

Predestination - just like decree - are theological terms to express certain realities.

They are not --- well --- I don't know where you are coming from.

Your thoughts seem to be rather shallow to me.

You don’t make sense sometimes. This will likely be my last direct post to you.

I have no idea what you are talking about. You seem to be just arguing to be arguing.

Again – what on earth do you think predestination is – an official document with His stamp on it?

I had hoped that if I responded to you you would reason clearly and we could even bury the hatchet at least on this one thread.

But you seem to have the idea that your thoughts are weighty and make sense. They are anything but.

This is my last direct post to you.

Marvin, why such a mean spirit? If any man disagrees with you, just let it be.

If I am wrong, God will deal with it. If I am right, God will still deal with it.

 

[Job8]

But let’s try to articulate how these things work from every position – mine included

Christians have a duty and a moral obligation to stay within the limits set by Scripture without speculating or resorting to terms which are found in philosophy rather than Scripture. Christians also have an obligation to understand that God's ways are not man's ways and vice versa. So what can we gather from Scripture to understand what is pre-determined and what is not? To claim that everything is pre-determined is nonsensical, since even Scripture reveals that this is not the case.

1. Certain key events have been pre-determined, the most prominent one being the perfect sacrifice of the Lamb of God (1 Pet 1:18-20).

2. Certain key individuals have been selected to fulfil certain ministries, e.g. the apostle Paul (Gal 1:15).

3. Since God has given men and angels free wills, they are allowed to exercise their free wills and suffer the consequences (Ezekiel 18:1-32). This applies to salvation also (Jn 3:36)

4. Since God is omniscient He knows all things regardless of when and how they happen (Isa 48:3)

5. Since God is sovereign, His plans and purposes are fulfilled according to His will (Eph 1:1-14).

 

[Marvin Knox]

Marvin, why such a mean spirit? If any man disagrees with you, just let it be.

If I am wrong, God will deal with it. If I am right, God will still deal with it.

I wouldn't call it a mean spirit at all.

More along the lines of being as wise as a serpent and as harmless as a dove.

I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me.

But you seem to be being purposefully obtuse.

This isn't rocket science. It's really quite simple.

If you have a problem with Calvinism as having to do with regeneration of some in order that they can believe or any such thing -- that's another subject.

But this is rather straight forward.

God knows all things possible. God knows also all things that will be reality as we know it also.

To take something from the possible into reality requires not only an action by God but multiplied trillions of actions over a period of time.

He's God - nothing is happening unless He says so. All things are created by His Word, for His Word, and all things exist in His Word. This is extremely basic stuff.

When God actually acts and continues to act the way that He did and does - those actions make what was a potential destiny a real destiny.

The things (as you yourself said) that He knows will happen cannot help but happen.

If He knows man will sin - man will most assuredly sin.

If, on the other hand, He knows that man will sin if God Himself does certain things - that in itself does not mean that man will sin.

When God acts to do the things that that reality was predicated on however - then those things that He knows will indeed happen (including sin) will happen and they cannot not happen.

His actions to make these things a reality instead of just a possibility are what make them predestined to happen from the instant that He acted.

I know that you can follow these ideas. I know that they are inescapable both from logic and scripture.

You are arguing against them for one reason and one reason only. Because you won't allow anything you admit to to show forth any single concept held by the dreaded Calvinists.

You are disingenuous to say the least in acting in those ways. That is why I am breaking it off again with you. (I HOPE).

 

[Marvin Knox]

To claim that everything is pre-determined is nonsensical, since even Scripture reveals that this is not the case.

If by your chosen term "pre-determined" you mean that God actually scripted what will happen before it happens (as per the hard determinism position) - then I agree with you.

If you are using your term "pre-determined" in such a way that it is identical to pre-destined then I strongly disagree.

The scriptures are very clear that God knows all that will happen before it happens. If the destiny of a person is known by God beyond shadow of doubt prior to the existence of that person - all that that person does is predestined to happen.

If God knows what a person will do if and when He finds himself in a certain circumstance- that doesn't, in itself, mean that those actions are predestined to happen.

If, however, God acts in such a way that the person will assuredly find himself in said circumstance - that means that, from the time that God so acted, the actions of the person in question were predestined to happen. They could never be other than what God knew beyond doubt would happen.

But we can agree to disagree about such wording.

You affirm that, "1. Certain key events have been pre-determined, the most prominent one being the perfect sacrifice of the Lamb of God (1 Pet 1:18-20)."

You do believe then that the sinful acts of those men who killed Him were predestined to happen?

Could you expand on that a little for us?

Are these sins just the exception to the rule? Or are other sins predestined as well?