Hail, Perfected in grace by God

Mountainmike

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It seems to me that even catholic translations do not do justice to mary.
"hail full of grace" means so more than that in Luke 1:28.

The full meaning of “chaire kecharitomene” is something like.

"Hail, who has been perfectly and completely graced by God"
eg
http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=288358&language=en

Notice it is not "hail Mary (followed by description)
It is Hail (followed by a title)

So for shorter expressions
"Hail , perfected by grace" is better than "hail full of grace"
Even St Paul specifically says, he is long way short of perfected in grace.
So Mary is very special.

And the word "hail" is the word normally used for Royalty in the bible and is no ordinary greeting! Which when made by an angel, on instruction from God is so much more significant!

Which makes some reformationists regarding mary as "A N Other, Sinner, used wineskin!" a long way short of Gods truth and intention!.

Another interesting reflection, is the word "woman" used by Christ at Cana, is the same word used in Genesis for Eve, which several times refers to Eve, then on one occasion to the prophecy of one to come.

Same word is used at the foot of the Cross. When Jesus says "behold your son" in the dialogue with John that said "behold your mother" So heralding the new Eve! of obedience, not disobedience.

A very special lady. No other person is given the titles that Mary has.
 
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rnmomof7

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It seems to me that even catholic translations do not do justice to mary.
"hail full of grace" means so more than that in Luke 1:28.

The full meaning of “chaire kecharitomene” is something like.

"Hail, who has been perfectly and completely graced by God"
eg
http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=288358&language=en

Notice it is not "hail Mary (followed by description)
It is Hail (followed by a title)

So for shorter expressions
"Hail , perfected by grace" is better than "hail full of grace"
Even St Paul specifically says, he is long way short of perfected in grace.
So Mary is very special.

And the word "hail" is the word normally used for Royalty in the bible and is no ordinary greeting! Which when made by an angel, on instruction from God is so much more significant!

Which makes some reformationists regarding mary as "A N Other, Sinner, used wineskin!" a long way short of Gods truth and intention!.

Another interesting reflection, is the word "woman" used by Christ at Cana, is the same word used in Genesis for Eve, which several times refers to Eve, then on one occasion to the prophecy of one to come.

Same word is used at the foot of the Cross. When Jesus says "behold your son" in the dialogue with John that said "behold your mother" So heralding the new Eve! of obedience, not disobedience.

A very special lady. No other person is given the titles that Mary has.
actually the angel said "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

Grace is not a liquid that one can "fill" anything with" .. it is the unmerited favor of God.. she did not deserve the honor because she was "filled with grace" rather it was the grace of God that made her" favored " ....
 
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Mountainmike

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actually the angel said "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

Grace is not a liquid that one can "fill" anything with" .. it is the unmerited favor of God.. she did not deserve the honor because she was "filled with grace" rather it was the grace of God that made her" favored " ....

And that is exactly the normal translation which does not do justice to what was actually said.
And it was a title the angel gave her, not a description.

There are many learned texts on this.
Simple is this.. but there is more to it than that.
EWTN.com - "chaire kecharitomene"
 
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kepha31

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actually the angel said "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

Luke 1:28 [RSV]: “And he came to her and said, ‘Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!'”
[The RSVCE translates x (“favored one” above) as “full of grace”]

Catholics believe that this verse is an indication of the sinlessness of Mary – itself the kernel of the more developed doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. But that is not apparent at first glance (especially if the verse is translated “highly favored” – which does not bring to mind sinlessness in present-day language).

Protestants are hostile to the notions of Mary’s freedom from actual sin and her Immaculate Conception (in which God freed her from original sin from the moment of her conception) because they feel that this makes her a sort of goddess and improperly set apart from the rest of humanity. They do not believe that it was fitting for God to set her apart in such a manner, even for the purpose of being the Mother of Jesus Christ, and don’t see that this is “fitting” or “appropriate” (as Catholics do).

The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:
“Highly favoured” (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena “is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received‘; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow‘” (Plummer).
Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, “grace”). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated “grace” 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as “full of grace” and that the literal meaning was “endued with grace” (Vincent, I, 259).
Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as “to endue with Divine favour or grace” (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to “divine favor, that is, God’s grace” (White, 201)

Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary’s personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).

The Catholic argument hinges upon the meaning of kecharitomene. For Mary this signifies a state granted to her, in which she enjoys an extraordinary fullness of grace. Charis often refers to a power or ability which God grants in order to overcome sin (and this is how we interpret Luke 1:28). This sense is a biblical one, as Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel points out:

Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it ([Rom.] 5:20-21). Hence grace is in some sense a state (5:2), although one is always called into it (Gal. 1:6), and it is always a gift on which one has no claim. Grace is sufficient (1 Cor. 1:29) . . . The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom. 5:20-21) . . .

Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean “a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18” (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary’s sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and “conqueror” of sin (emphases added in the following verses):
Romans 6:14
Ephesians 2:8-10

Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:

1. Grace saves us.
2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.

Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It’s a “zero-sum game”: the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7, 9; 3:6, 9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:

1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.
2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God’s grace.
2. To be “full of” God’s grace, then, is to be saved.
3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).
4. The Bible teaches that we need God’s grace to live a holy life, free from sin.
5. To be “full of” God’s grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.
6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.
7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.
8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture.

The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.

Grace is not a liquid that one can "fill" anything with" .. it is the unmerited favor of God.. she did not deserve the honor because she was "filled with grace" rather it was the grace of God that made her" favored " ....
Agreed. But the question is WHEN did this happen? Did the angel say, "POOF! You are now full of grace??? Did Mary go to the Temple and accept Jesus as her personal savior??
God can forgive King David for his sin by the merits of the cross retrospectively, but can't do that for His own mother back in time to her conception? Does "Full of Grace" mean 99.9% full with .1% sin? BTW, it's a TITLE, not just a description.

"favored one" does no justice to the Greek kecharitomene. This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.
Again, when was Mary Full of Grace??
 
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PanDeVida

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actually the angel said "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

Grace is not a liquid that one can "fill" anything with" .. it is the unmerited favor of God.. she did not deserve the honor because she was "filled with grace" rather it was the grace of God that made her" favored " ....

Perhaps in your king James bible where translation are always changing.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Luke 1:28And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.


In fact Mary's name was changed to Full Of Grace. Mary being Full of God's Grace, dispense Grace to those who ask of God' Grace. Mary Carried in her womb and Carries in Her Heart, Grace Itself who is Jesus Christ, and Mary takes All to the foot of the Cross as Mary did for John She will take to the foot of Her Son Jesus in his Kingdom.

By the Angel Gabriel stating: "Full of Grace" contradicts your statement of: "Grace is not a liquid that one can "fill" anything with"...
 
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