Grace

[drich0150]

I feel like we're just getting into semantics here. But I view it as God not demanding us to be morally perfect as in, I do not have to live a morally perfect life because God has this whole atonement/forgiveness thing worked out.

The bible tells us that Righteousness only comes through living a perfect life. We can not obtain righteousness because we are slaves to sin. Therefore God has provided atonement through a blood sacrifice of Christ. That allows for choice/sin so that our hearts maybe free to choose what we really want with God..

God does not demand that we live a perfect life.

Again He does. IF you believe the bible.

I will not live a perfect life.

Indeed

God doesn't expect me too because its impossible, hence forgiveness.

Again no. Forgiveness is not so you can sin more.
Forgiveness/atonement allows you to decide whether to be with God or away from God, apart from sin.

Its just semantics because of our definitions of "demand" and the way we view the causation but I don't think its important.

Then you must disregard the same verses that speak about forgiveness. Because to forgive means the one to be forgiven has fallen short of the standard he is to live by.

Yes, I re-read your post and I understand this. From what I gather you mean to say that "walking in the Spirit" does not equate to "living a sinless life". Rather, "walking in the Spirit" is equated with "having whatever sins you do commit be forgiven." Am I correct in your understanding?

What you have failed to identify is the reason why.. The act of sinning and forgiveness is conditional. you have not identified the condition.

I have yet to see a perfect human, Christian or non-Christian, where I define "perfection" as being morally upright in every thought or deed.

I can understand your statement if you mean that man can be "perfected" via the Spirit in some sort of abstract, ontological sense but I disagree with you that man can be "perfected" in a practical or functional sense.



Let me elaborate a little. If I stub my toe and yell happen to take God's name in vain in my frustration and pain then that means I have sinned, correct? If all sin is equal, then my sin is equal to that of a mass murderer who slaughters several innocent people.

You said earlier that a Christian cannot adequately be labeled a Christian if their "action (like any other habitual/malice sinner) is not consistent with their proclamation of Christianity.
This would be true with any liar, gossip or any other 'minor sinner.'"

So, what I get from this is that, according to you, since me taking God's name in vain is an action that is not consistent with my proclamation of Christianity (or Jesus' moral value system), I therefore cannot adequately be labeled a Christian based on this on "minor" sin and do not "know" Christ fully.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7623201/
post #8

I hold to the fact that by this strange definition, no one is a Christian because everyone screws up.

Screwing up has nothing to do with Christianity. it is not what you do that defines your status as a Christian it is why you are doing it.

And from this there seems to be an inherent inconsistency in that most Christians quickly label the mass murderer as not a "real" Christian but, taking it to its logical conclusion as your definition does, it becomes absurd.

Only if you insist to hold fast to the idea that "your understandings and definitions" are indeed the standards and definitions found in the bible.

But understand you nor the "spirituality" you use to judge the whole of Christianity is the standard you believe it to be.

 

[elopez]

I have heard many Christians say that all sin is equal and we are all lost in this equality of sin and we need only accept Jesus' forgiveness in order to enter into eternal life and become spiritually alive.

I believe there is mortal and venial sins. Meaning that there are sins that separate us from God (mortal) and those that do not (venial). Those sins that do not separate us from God are not as "severe" as those that do, which I suppose you could say would mean such a sin is not "equal" to the other.

So:

All sin is equal.
All sin is forgiven by believing in / accepting Jesus.

Correct?

Well, no. All sin cannot be equal. And, it takes more than just believing in Jesus. We must also follow him, too.

Why is it that so many Christians quickly back up and back peddle when we begin to discuss really heinous crimes committed by Christians? The automatic default is that these people were't "real" Christians.

I'm not sure. I do know that it is possible for such a person to be Christian yet commit this crime, but that would mean the same possibility is valid that such a person is not a Christian and never really was. I guess we couldn't know for sure.

But if all sin is equal, why does it matter? We're all sinners and all sin is equal so why is a Christian mass-murderer accused of not being a "real" Christian? Could he not be a real Christian with a fully committed relationship to Jesus? After all, he just happens to sin but that sin is no better or worse than any other, right?

Again, all sin is not equal. Christianity has a set of certain "prerequisites" to be adhered to in order to be considered a Christian. For example, as you said earlier to believe in Christ. If one does not believe in Christ, they're not really Christian, are they? Since we are at the talk of murder, it is also believed that no one commit such an act. My point is, if someone acts contrary to a belief system that has say a set of "rules," they don't seem to e what they say are. Would you believe a vegetarian claim she is one while mauling down a steak?

 

[ephraimanesti]

I will write the same thing I wrote to drich:

What do you mean by "sinless"? Do you mean it in some abstract, ontological way?

I have yet to see a sinless human in practice, Christian or non-Christian, where I define "sinless" as being morally upright in every thought or deed.

I can understand your statement if you mean that man can be "sinless" via the Spirit in some sort of abstract, ontological sense but I disagree with you that man can be "sinless" in a practical or functional sense.

People still commit acts whether they are forgiven or not. Christians lie, act selfishly, become impatient, cheat, steal, etc. All of them. None of them are perfect in practice. Perhaps they are sinless in some ontological sense, but I can't agree with you that they are perfect in a practical, observable way.

MY FRIEND,

Our God has commanded us, "I AM GOD ALMIGHTY; WALK BEFORE ME AND BE BLAMELESS (sinless)." (Genesis 17:1) It is our task, as Christians, to do battle with, and to overcome, our sinful flesh--under the control and with the Power of God's indwelling Holy Spirit. Many have completed this task; many have progressed wonderfully but run out of time before completing the task--relying on God's grace to finish what they had not time to complete. Sinless existence is possible and this is the task we are given by God when we leave the world and enter His Kingdom as new-born Christians. Sinlessness is the goal we strive for when we follow our Lord's admonition to "WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING" (Philippians 2:12)--our lifetime goal in our Christian walk.

i don't doubt that you have not met any sinless people--you reside in a different world than they do, and it is highly unlikely your paths would cross, especially in your state of judgmentalism and unbelief. Many are "perfect in a practical and observable way" but the plank in your own eye is clouding your vision and blinding you to the reality of what the Holy Spirit, residing in a sincere seekers heart, can accomplish through the exercise of the same Power which created the Universe. But if you would "lean" over a little further towards Christianity, perhaps you would fall in and acquire some viable sinless role models to aid you in escaping out the darkness and coming FULLY into the Light of God's Kingdom as many others whose perceptions have been blinded by satan are doing as we speak. As it is, your "leaning towards Christianity" merely places you in the category of those of whom our Lord said, "I WISH YOU WERE EITHER HOT OR COLD, BUT BECAUSE YOU ARE LUKEWARM--NEITHER HOT NOR COLD--I WILL SPEW YOU OUR OF MY MOUTH." (Revelation 3:15-16) You have been "leaning" for a long time and, from your "questioning," it appears you have been running pretty much in circles for some time. When ya gonna get off the fence and either commit or condemn what you have (hopefully) learned here through all these endless "discussions" and "argument?"

"BUT JUST AS HE WHO CALLED YOU IS HOLY, SO BE HOLY IN ALL YOU DO; FOR IT IS WRITTEN, 'BE HOLY, BECAUSE I AM HOLY." (I Peter 115-16) God does not give us any commands we cannot fulfill by working in conjunction with His Holy Spirit. Perhaps it is time you stop with the false judgments made on the basis of personal assumptions and begin the admittedly arduous--but highly rewarding--task of driving the "sins which so easily beset you" out of your life and see for yourself what sinlessness is REALLY like.

ABBA'S SLAVE,
ephraim

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

It is our task, as Christians, to do battle with, and to overcome, our sinful flesh--under the control and with the Power of God's indwelling Holy Spirit. Many have completed this task; many have progressed wonderfully but run out of time before completing the task--relying on God's grace to finish what they had not time to complete.

Can you name someone who has completed this task?

Sinless existence is possible

I thought the whole purpose of Christianity was that it wasn't possible hence we need Jesus' grace to make us perfect in God's eyes.

i don't doubt that you have not met any sinless people--you reside in a different world than they do, and it is highly unlikely your paths would cross, especially in your state of judgmentalism and unbelief.

So you're saying that the church I've attended for almost 3 years contains no Christians who have accomplished this task of sinlessness? I'll admit I do not know them all personally but from my dealings with many of them they all seem just like me: human. None seem to have achieved some insight that rids them of all sin, temptation and selfishness.

But if you would "lean" over a little further towards Christianity, perhaps you would fall in and acquire some viable sinless role models to aid you

Could you name a few of your sinless role models, besides Jesus?

You have been "leaning" for a long time and, from your "questioning," it appears you have been running pretty much in circles for some time. When ya gonna get off the fence and either commit or condemn what you have (hopefully) learned here through all these endless "discussions" and "argument?"

Your "fence" is another's "God". I am content in my seeking and questioning and philosophizing. I am on no fence. I question because it is only through questioning and reasonable doubting that you come to knowledge of the truth. I question because it is only through questioning that you learn and explore. I have my conclusions and my convictions but that does not mean I am "settling" for some static faith which my mind currently holds. I'm sorry if you don't enjoy my "explorations" in the "Exploring Christianity" sub-forum.

Perhaps it is time you stop with the false judgments made on the basis of personal assumptions and begin the admittedly arduous--but highly rewarding--task of driving the "sins which so easily beset you" out of your life and see for yourself what sinlessness is REALLY like.

I am striving towards that goal, with God's help. If everyone consistently did what you've just said in this quote, the world would be a much better place. Breaking down personal assumptions is key.

 

[aiki]

I have heard many Christians say that all sin is equal and we are all lost in this equality of sin and we need only accept Jesus' forgiveness in order to enter into eternal life and become spiritually alive.

So:

All sin is equal.
All sin is forgiven by believing in / accepting Jesus.

Correct?

I think all sin is equal insofar as it seperates the sinner from God and breaks the chain of His commandments. The temporal consequences of various sins are not necessarily equal, however. Stealing a cookie, for instance, does not result in the sort of consequences temporally that arise out of say, murder, or adultery.

The apostle James makes some very strong declarations about a person's conduct reflecting their faith in Christ. Essentially, as far as one's claim to genuine second birth into God's family was concerned, James' attitude was "put up or shutup."

James 2:17-20
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

It is not enough, then, to claim conversion; one reveals the reality of one's spiritual birth through righteous works.

Why is it that so many Christians quickly back up and back peddle when we begin to discuss really heinous crimes committed by Christians? The automatic default is that these people were't "real" Christians.

There is some biblical ground upon which to say so. Christ himself spoke of knowing a tree by its fruit. At what point does one take into account a person's behaviour in discerning the truth of their claim of adoption into God's family? Christ often spoke very harshly of those whose words and actions were contradictory. He called such people hypocrites, white-washed tombs, vipers, and so on. Clearly, he thought a person's actions did offer a basis upon which to judge the veracity of their claims of allegiance to God.

But if all sin is equal, why does it matter? We're all sinners and all sin is equal so why is a Christian mass-murderer accused of not being a "real" Christian?

Because mass-murder runs utterly contrary to everything Christ urged his followers toward.

Could he not be a real Christian with a fully committed relationship to Jesus? After all, he just happens to sin but that sin is no better or worse than any other, right?

The reality of a fully-committed relationship to Jesus Christ is inevitably reflected in one's behaviour. Any sin that is indulged in habitually and without pang of conscience by a person who claims to be a Christian indicates an absence of the convicting and empowering presence of God's Spirit within. And if the Holy Spirit, who is given to every true believer as a "downpayment" of their spiritual inheritance and sign of their adoption into God's family is not evident in one claiming conversion, then no conversion has truly happened. No one who is indwelt by God's Holy Spirit can ever live comfortably with sin. What's more, God works to discipline any of His children who do yield themselves to sin. The combination of the conviction of God's Spirit and God's careful discipline of His children when they stray into sin makes living easily in sin for a genuine child of God a very difficult prospect. The possibility that someone could do so and be genuinely saved is extremely remote.

Selah.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Can you name someone who has completed this task?

MY BROTHER,

Mother Theresa. Dietrich Bonhoeffer. St. Theophan the Recluse. Father Arseny. Henri Nouwen. John Paul II. Etc.

I thought the whole purpose of Christianity was that it wasn't possible hence we need Jesus' grace to make us perfect in God's eyes.

We do indeed need grace to achieve perfection--that's what Christianity is: an expression of God's Grace. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose." (Philippians 2:12-13) God gives us the tools through His Grace; we do the work through our complete surrender and obedience. God empowers us to overcome the sin within us; we must use His Power and Directions to win the victory. As Jerry Bridges puts it, "God's provision for us consists in delivering us from the reign and power of sin, uniting us with Christ, and giving us the indwelling Holy Spirit to reveal sin, to create a desire for holiness, and to strengthen us in our pursuit of holiness. Through the power of the Holy Spirit and according to the new nature He gives, we are to put to death the misdeeds of the body."--from The Pursuit of Holiness

So you're saying that the church I've attended for almost 3 years contains no Christians who have accomplished this task of sinlessness? I'll admit I do not know them all personally but from my dealings with many of them they all seem just like me: human. None seem to have achieved some insight that rids them of all sin, temptation and selfishness.

Well, firstly i would say that if you have been attending a church for 3 years and are still stuck in the darkness with no experience of higher things, then something is quite possibly wrong--either you are avoiding commitment and surrender to the Truth and Power of the Gospel, you are surrounded by holy people but are blind because of ongoing unrepented of sin, or you are stuck in a dead church with no Spiritual nourishment to offer. Obviously i can't call it or even give an educated guess. Somethin ain't right, though. For whatever reason you are either refusing to eat or not being fed.

Could you name a few of your sinless role models, besides Jesus?

See above. Because i have so far to go yet, i have many sinless role models around me to help me deal with my varied personal areas of sinfullness. You wouldn't know their names and i don't want to compromise their humility. When you finally open your eyes, i think you will find that you, also, are surrounded by role modes whose help you can avail yourself in the process of "working out your salvation with fear and trembling."

Your "fence" is another's "God". I am content in my seeking and questioning and philosophizing. I am on no fence. I question because it is only through questioning and reasonable doubting that you come to knowledge of the truth. I question because it is only through questioning that you learn and explore. I have my conclusions and my convictions but that does not mean I am "settling" for some static faith which my mind currently holds. I'm sorry if you don't enjoy my "explorations" in the "Exploring Christianity" sub-forum.

It is a scary dangerous thing to be content in the darkness. This is the ultimate fence. May God have mercy!

I am striving towards that goal, with God's help. If everyone consistently did what you've just said in this quote, the world would be a much better place. Breaking down personal assumptions is key.

Were you striving, my brother, you would have already arrived. Our Lord states, "Here I am! Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." (Revelations 3:20)

ABBA'S SLAVE,
ephraim

 

[ephraimanesti]

"God has clearly said, throughout His written Word, in a multitude of ways, 'Be holy, because I am holy.' Surely He has not commanded us to be holy without providing the ways and means to actually become holy. . . .

"God has indeed provided all we need for our pursuit of holiness. He has washed us from our past sins by the blood of His Son; He has delivered us from the reign of sin and given us His indwelling Holy Spirit to sanctify us from the inside out; He has revealed His will for holy living in His Word, and He works in us to will and to act according to His good purpose; He has sent pastors and teachers to exhort, guide, and encourage us in the path of holiness; He has provided saintly people to be our role models; and He always answers our prayers when we cry to Him for strength against temptation.

"Truly the choice is ours. What will we choose? Will we accept our responsibility and discipline ourselves to live in habitual obedience to the will of God? Will we persevere in the face of frequent failure, resolving never to give up our struggle against sin? Will we decide that personal holiness is worth the price of saying not to our body's demands to indulge its appetites?

"The privilege of being sinless and holy is yours. If you make that decision, you will experience the fullness of joy which Christ has promised to those who walk in obedience to Him."
-- from The Pursuit of Holiness by Jerry Bridges