Good News: No Hell

[Shempster]

Maybe its a widely held belief because it is very useful to scare people into joining your religion. The church uses this all the time to manipulate others. Its wrong.
If so, it goes against the whole point of repentance. One repents because they got caught is radically different from those who repent because of a heart that rejects evil and believes.

 

[Sapiens]

EDIT: BTW, check my last post, I updated it (#65 I think)

I personally think that the final judgment with be to deal with the first sentence for sin. And what was the 'first punishment'? Was it not 'death'? Or did Genesis somewhere say; In the day you eat you'll go to hell forever."???

So the last judgment will be to destroy the last enemy of mankind.

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

I'm curious, what do you think the 'final punishment' is for?

When you say "death, are you thinking about physical death? Because I think it was both physical and spiritual. In any case, I agree that, along with sin, the suffering it brings, and evil will be done away with since it was not originally intended in the creation of God, I believe.

What I was trying to know, is if you believe all people will ultimately go to heaven, in your previous (to the one i am quoting here) post, you mentionned a "purgative fire". Are you thinking about something similar to that of Catholiscism? That that's a temporary punishment and then you get to go to Heaven? Do you think that would apply to all people or just some? I am trying to understand your view.

As for my perspecetive, I think there is an eternal place for those who refused to believe and in their folly, were stubborn in walking in evil and deceit, and refused the salvation God proposes. For God will not turn His back on those who seek Him and desire to be saved and ask for His forgiveness. But for those who don't want, what can He do? Is it His fault? Of course He bears the moral responsibility over us, His creation, and that is why He didn't give up on us and I am sure He does all He can to save everyone, for He is a just and loving God, but at some point, people are responsible for themselves as well, no?

This "final judgment/punishment" is the definitive end of evil and all that is wrong including lies, sin, death and suffering and those who willingly and stubbornly partake in it.

As far as my knowledge and understanding go today, that's my view.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Maybe its a widely held belief because it is very useful to scare people into joining your religion. The church uses this all the time to manipulate others. Its wrong.
If so, it goes against the whole point of repentance. One repents because they got caught is radically different from those who repent because of a heart that rejects evil and believes.

You're entitled to that opinion even if It's wrong. But, if you believe in the bible and if you believe in Jesus. There is an eternal hell.

 

[Der Alte]

My previous post

Are you sure about that? The lake of fire passages, in context.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “he lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.

We also know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.

Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere but there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.

Obviously I am speaking of the souls of the unsaved and anyone cast into the lake of fire is destroyed and dead forever.

You ignored my post and repeated the same thing. There is not one single verse in the Bible which says that anyone/anything is thrown into the Lake of Fire then they die. Being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Hillsage]

The other issue, Hillsage, is whether or not Jesus is truly talking specifically about the afterlife when he speaks about Hell, or is he talking about this life.

1 Peter 1:7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Hillsage]

That's actually wrong.

Mat_18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Mat_25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I disagree. Neither verse says 'eternal hell'. You say everlasting fire is hell and I say

YLT Matthew 18:8 'And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble, cut them off and cast from thee; it is good for thee to enter into the life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire the age-during.
YLT Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

And if God prepared this fire for the devil and his angels, how does man end up there? Did God's omniscience slip...or is it man's understanding which is fallen? I believe I'm trusting in God's plan, purpose and understanding over the traditions and commandments of men.

Guess where the devil goes? The lake of fire, also called hell.

I agree with scripture, but not you then. Unless there is an everlasting hell in your theology...AND a really bigger hell called the lake of fire.

REV 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[Job8]

REV 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Why is this verse deliberately misunderstood and misinterpreted by the naysayers? Because they have already made up their minds that no matter what the Bible says, they will find a way to distort it or change its meaning, and go on to deny the existence of Hell. We should always bear in mind that they are influenced by Satan to attack the doctrine of Hell, since it pertains to the Devil himself. The Devil does not want human beings to believe the Gospel, therefore he attacks the Gospel, which includes the doctrine of Hell.

1. "Death and Hades" [NOT eternal Hell] are personified here, just as they are in Revelation 6:8. It is unfortunate that the Greek word Hades was translated as "Hell" because that is quite misleading.

2. The Great White Throne Judgement corresponds to the "resurrection of damnation", where those who are unsaved are resurrected, in order to be judged out of the books, and then to be cast into the Lake of Fire. After this resurrection, there is no more death on earth, hence "death" is metaphorically cast into the Lake of Fire. At the same time since Hades is the holding place (or subterranean region) of the souls of those who died without Christ, and since all those in Hades are now standing before God in their resurrected bodies, "Hades" is also terminated, hence cast in to the Lake of Fire.

3. Then we come to "the second death", and when we understand that death is essentially separation, there is no problem in understanding the second death. The first death is the SEPARATION of the soul and spirit from the body, whereas the second death is the ETERNAL SEPARATION of the damned from God.

4. There are multiple Scriptures which tell us that Gehenna (the Lake of Fire) is eternal and everlasting punishment and torment which is primarily for Satan, the Beast, the False Prophet, and all the evil angels, and secondarily for all those who are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life (the unsaved).

 

[Hillsage]

You're lost and confused and ignorant of bible scripture.

And I think you are 'thinking more highly of yourself than you ought'. It seemed so, so much to me that I looked at your profile which confirmed my suspicion. Did love your 'Fav verse' in your profile though;

1 John 4:20 "If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen."

Oh, and by the way, when you get a little more mature in the Lord, you too may find that the 'love' in the verse above, doesn't leave teeth marks.

The bible clearly states what I said and it is a widely held belief in Christianity. In fact, It's what Christianity is ABOUT. You can't be Christian if you don't believe in Jesus or that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and that he is our savior from an eternal hell.

Well now I don't know what is worst, 'your judgment of me' or 'your judgment'...period. Just kidding, I really do know.

Ewq138 already stated all of the reasons you're wrong, so I don't have to repeat it. But, wow.

You're right, we really don't have anything to 'maturely talk about' anyway...because, as I've seen, you know the 'fighting words of immaturity' too well still.

 

[Der Alte]

* * * G622
a?p?´???µ?
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

The same litany of out-of-context proof texts. ἀπόλλυμι/Appolumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.

(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).

1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.

a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28 ; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26, 3 ( cf. Sir 20:22 ).

b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .

b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).

2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.

a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).

b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12

. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son [who has returned]Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.

BAG Greek Lexicon online​

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

The standard out-of-context verse. Psalm 37 does not refer to man's eternal fate but what happened to Israel's enemies in this world.

Psa 37:1 A Psalm of David. Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
Psa 37:2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb. Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. ​

The wicked will be cut down like grass and wither like the green herb, that is not eternal destructioon.

Psa 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. ​

The psalmist could not see into eternity he looked for the place of the wicked in this world and he was not there.

Psa 37:14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
Psa 37:15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be brokenPsa 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous​

The wicked drew their swords and bent their bows to attack Israel but were pierced by their own sword and their bow was broken. That is not eternal destruction.

Psa 37:36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.​

The psalmist cannot see into eternity he looked for the enemy in this world but he could not be found.

Those judged to death on judgment day, which is called the second death, will not have eternal life in hell or torment. Their punishment is death and that punishment will last for all eternity. They shall not live eternally in agony because they shall not have eternal life of any kind.

There is no second death. See my Link: post #74 this thread.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Don't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal:

How convenient, scripture is literal when it supports your assumptions/presuppositions but when it doesn't then you arbitrarily decide that it is not literal.

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Isaiah uses similar language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.

This is a logical fallacy, Illegitimate totality transfer, "assumes that all the uses that occur at a given time apply in any given instance;" That words are sometimes used figuratively does not change the primary meaning.

And look at how many scriptures refute the idea of eternal life in hell fire:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

This does not say it shall die twice!

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11[/q

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.

There is no second death! How can death and hell which are not alive, did not/cannot die a first death, die a second death?

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

These are prayers of the Psalmist, what he wants God to do. Not statements of what literally happens.

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

What happens to the wicked in this world on one specific day. The righteous will not be walking on the ashes of the wicked throughout eternity

Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. ​

 

[Hillsage]

So, I re-read the OP, and it really seems like he's challenging the doctrine of Hell as being wrong. I also took a look at the website he links to and it seems to go in the same direction, however, adding that Eternal Hell is, and I quote, "unscriptural". Now though, it appears to me that that may be exactly what you mean (English is not my first language). Then I would like to hear what is your non-traditional view of Hell.

I hope you 'found' this post again, and did not have to 'start over'...I too hate it when losses like that happen.

I'm pretty familiar with the website, and I agree they don't accept the 'traditional opinion' of the words 'eternal' or the word 'hell'.

Well, God didn't create the devil. he created a free angel, Lucifer, that chose to turn his back on Him.

And God in His omniscience did not know the plans he had for Lucifer...just was well as "He knows the plans he has for you"?

ISA 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

As for what you say on the Gospel, is it your opinion that it is weak? God vanquished Death, sin and Satan.

The gospel of the nominal church is weak...the devil wins with their plan and God loses almost everybody...stupid plan IMO. And death isn't vanquished or sin or Satan, they are kept twisting and turning in the cauldron of Dante's inferno. A definition of hell promoted by the catholic church to extort indulgences (money) to get people out of hell's stepchild..purgatory.

He OFFERS to all a solution by believing in Jesus.

Then you haven't looked close enough at His "drawing, calling, choosing, predestining...and last but not least "ordaining to believe"....which really limits ALL to those who would be born again, of Him, in this age. And the only 'first chance' for ALL the rest, is in the ages to come.

Now, creating free beings implies what? that they might choose wrong.

If that was scriptural I'd agree.
JOH 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
JOH 1:12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God;
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
JOH 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out.
PHI 2:13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

With maturity comes the understanding that 'the lost sheep never find the shepherd'. But it is he who came to seek and save....some in this age, the rest in the ages to come. If not, then He has failed in His commissioning...according to 'traditional POV'.

In His wisdom and omniscience, God saw fit to create this world with this reality, ehich bears not only good but evil and suffering as well. The fact that we might not see why God allows these things doesn't mean that He doesn't have a morally sufficient reason for allowing them, and even eternal damnation.

This last point is one of separation. Nothing done by any man under the sentence of being born a sinner according to God's plan can justify a punishment so severe. Any heart that can fully accept this is a heart far from the heart of the God I know.

Even with this, it might be better than not having created at all, perhaps this is the optimal balance between good-evil God could achieved.

EPH 1:11 In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will,

When your will usurps 'God's counseled will', then you have usurped God with your opinion, have you not? You actually quote the next scripture in this line of thought.

Why do you use the word torture? I do not think God is sadistic either my friend. God is not willing that any should be lost but that all come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

As for predestination and election, I do not know enough to formulate an opinion on that at this moment.

I appreciate your honesty. But this 'fact' does play a big part in the plan of God.

I haven't experienced any third degrees burn so far either, thankfully. As for the fire, I think it might symbolize purity but I am not sure. Is that what you think it means too?

Generally speaking I'd say yes.

Since you're the one who brought it up, what do you think the "life-age" term means? Because I don't quite understand it. Do you believe there is an after-life and that it is eternal and that it is temporary?

Are you saved and do you have 'eternal life' now? Do you still sin, if so why? Is that part of you going into heaven (God forbid)? When will it be dealt with then? The age to come? If yes then are you saved or not. You have the 'life of God available to you in this age', but you do not have a saved...glorified body...yet. So are you experiencing all God has for you when the 'ages come to an end'?

Why do you think some bibles have changed the word "Hell" for something else or have taken it out completely? Is it because they think it doesn't exist?

Scholarship is why. In 'Hell Under Fire' Daniel Block, professor of systematic theology at Westminster theological Seminary, wrote, "The traditional doctrine of hell now bears the marks of odium theologium-Its defenders are seemingly few."

Please bro, shorter posts. I hate answering more, than what can fit in one screen shot. People can't deal with it, including me. Opens too many bunny trails of distraction. I skipped all of a long winded post earlier which I was later told 'proved me wrong'.

 

[ewq1938]

The same litany of out-of-context proof texts. ἀπόλλυμι/Appolumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.

Nothing is out of context. Annihilation is the only possibility for the final judgement as I have proven.

 

[Hoghead1]

Many of the passages you cite, Ewq1938, do not al all have to do with the afterlife, but are talking about Israel putting down her enemies or ushering in the Kingdom of God. Kingdom 9f God.

 

[ewq1938]

Many of the passages you cite, Ewq1938, do not al all have to do with the afterlife, but are talking about Israel putting down her enemies or ushering in the Kingdom of God. Kingdom 9f God.

God does the putting down of enemies not Israel and all passages are references to God's final judgment and punishment of the wicked...they will be destroyed literally, completely, and eternally.

 

[Hillsage]

When you say "death, are you thinking about physical death? Because I think it was both physical and spiritual.

Do you believe that Jesus 'died spiritually' on the cross?

In any case, I agree that, along with sin, the suffering it brings, and evil will be done away with since it was not originally intended in the creation of God, I believe.

So was the 'tree of good and EVIL knowledge' a good or evil tree? Or both? An old sage once said; "There is no doer, but God." Even Job understood this deep saying.

JOB 2:10 But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

What I was trying to know, is if you believe all people will ultimately go to heaven, in your previous (to the one i am quoting here) post, you mentionned a "purgative fire". Are you thinking about something similar to that of Catholiscism? That that's a temporary punishment and then you get to go to Heaven? Do you think that would apply to all people or just some? I am trying to understand your view.

I think that divine fire is always purgative. In the OT when God destroyed a city, like Sodom and Gomorrah he was purging the land. All his judgments are purgative. That the people died also is not reason to believe that he does not reserve another fire later to purge them of the very thing that caused them to be the sinners they were. Even the pillar of fire in the wilderness led all those unbelievers to their graves, purging Israel..so to speak. Scripture tells us that on 'that day' the judgment of Capernaum, (the very home of Jesus after leaving Nazareth on being rejected) would be more harsh than Sodom. So much for the benefit of being a 'chosen' people of God, huh?

As for my perspecetive, I think there is an eternal place for those who refused to believe and in their folly, were stubborn in walking in evil and deceit, and refused the salvation God proposes.

That was my perspective too for many years. So, do you now walk "be ye perfect" without sin as Jesus commanded "go and sin no more"? If not, then how is your 'stubborn walking in evil and deceit' going to be dealt with? I certainly don't want it in heaven with me. No offense intended. I just now believe that God will intervene for the sake of Christ's faith and sacrifice and complete victory.

For God will not turn His back on those who seek Him and desire to be saved and ask for His forgiveness.

And how did you do that....contrary to scripture?

ROM 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands, no one seeks for God.

But for those who don't want, what can He do? Is it His fault? Of course He bears the moral responsibility over us, His creation, and that is why He didn't give up on us and I am sure He does all He can to save everyone,

I'm pretty sure God didn't blow my dad off a donkey, and then speak audibly from heaven. Had He done so, I know my dad would have chimed in with Paul saying "Who are you LORD....what wilt thou have me to do?"

for He is a just and loving God, but at some point, people are responsible for themselves as well, no?

We're back to that 'predestination' thing I believe.
I credit God for my spirit's birth into the family of God. I give him the glory for "drawing, calling, choosing, electing, predestining" AND 'ordaining me to believe unto his aionian life' in this age. I give him credit for my faith being given the instant he spoke to my heart even as he spoke audibly with Paul.

So now, I give glory to God, for my 'calling' and my 'faith' and even my ability to 'repent'; since I never sought the shepherd first, he sought me first.

ISA 55:11 so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

MAT 4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"

ROM 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing (my calling), and hearing by the word (spoken) of God.

2TI 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, 26 and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

I don't claim to fully understand it all, but I do believe what these scriptures say to me. Which is; TO GOD BE THE GLORY.

[/quote]This "final judgment/punishment" is the definitive end of evil and all that is wrong including lies, sin, death and suffering and those who willingly and stubbornly partake in it.

As far as my knowledge and understanding go today, that's my view.[/QUOTE] And mine. Only I believe that the death of death is the second death. And in the economy of God death precedes life. Even the devil dying will restore Lucifer I believe. That God may be all IN all to the glory

1CO 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

If even Lucifer was not reconciled then what 'in heaven' needed reconciliation, according to scripture?

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

 

[Hoghead1]

Well, al the wicked will be "destroyed, utterly, completely, and eternally," how is there a Hell?

 

[ewq1938]

Well, al the wicked will be "destroyed, utterly, completely, and eternally," how is there a Hell?

That question makes no sense. Because there is a hell/lake of fire all the wicked are destroyed. That's how God destroys them.

 

[Hillsage]

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Don't bother claiming this doesn't say spirit, the soul and spirit are united and when one is destroyed both are.

Don't bother you say. You're funny. That is exactly the verse I was going to use. The fact that you don't understand spirit is missing because spirits can't die is your problem not mine, and neither is it scripture's problem. Because I understand our tricotomy and my theology and God's sword are both 'sharp' enough to separate spirit soul and body Matt simply adds another confirmatory verse with Matt 10:28.

1TH 5:23 ...may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ;

HEB 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow,

FYI "joints and marrow" are body parts in GEHENNA.

YLT MAT 10:28 'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

Spirit is missing because scripture teaches what I believe, and you disagree with.

 

[Der Alte]

Nothing is out of context. Annihilation is the only possibility for the final judgement as I have proven.

I PROVED you wrong by quoting the proper context of your proof texts. You simply ignore anything which proves you wrong, contradicts your assumptions/presuppositions and repeat your assertions. Repeating false teachings over and over does not make them true.

Previous post reposted. This is known as credible, verifiable, historical evidence NOT opinion!

The Hell:No! view being espoused in this forum is false, see historical evidence and scripture below.

The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy
under two or three witnesses:
29 Of howmuch sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels and if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.

Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location(in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”

(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:

“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)

http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/​

 

[Shempster]

In my studies I also included looking into what the early church fathers taught. Afterall, they had scriptures in their possession that were burned by Rome and are not available to us.
Tatian wrote that the lost will be “immortal
Polycarp was on the eternal fire bandwagon
Origen does not agree with any eternal torture
Ignatious says the lost would "cease to be"
Tertullian wrote of the torments of hell as ghoulish entertainment for Christians as they watch their persecutors tormented in fire.
Irenaeus talked about the "final destruction of the lost" in eternal fire
Arnobius wrote Against the Heathen to combat the beliefs of pagan Greeks. One of the convictions of his intended audience was the immortality of the soul, while one of Arnobius’s convictions was that the lost would one day be finally destroyed.
Many Greeks, like many Christians today, believed that the soul was a simple immaterial substance, meaning that it is not composed of parts, and also it cannot be destroyed – it is immortal. But this doesn’t make sense if we believe that souls suffer after death, he said.
Augustine gets the most attention for claiming sinners will be tortured for all of eternity with no chance of escape or redemption.

So what we can safely say is that Christians who lived fairly close to the time of Jesus do not have a solid teaching on the afterlife of sinners and are in disagreement just like all of us in this thread.

 

[Hoghead1]

I don't follow you Ewq1938? Are you now saying there is no life after death?