Good News Indeed, but then... WHAT IS IT!?

[stuart lawrence]

In other words, is there such a thing as "Carnal Christians"?

According to the Bible this would be a... "no."

They would be counterfeits and not the real deal.
For he that does not love does not know God. Those who are carnal are not loving according to God's Word.


...

A perfect example of twisting scripture to make it say anything you want it to say. Paul wrote to christians at Corinth and referred to them as carnal because of how they acted. Jealousy and quarelling were given as two examples.

And just to reiterate, you don't want to obey out of love, but fear of hell if you dont.
That is not loving God by any standard

 

[Wordkeeper]

Can a situation exist where law reigns but people are immune from its force? Sure. Juveniles can commit crimes but be exempt from the penalty of the law, because they are immature, do not have sufficient judgmental abilities, mental competency. As are the insane, for the latter reason, too. Adam was immune, being under the first category, unable to discern right from wrong because of immaturity, until he chose to have the ability to discern right from wrong, the ability to make the right calls. Is it wrong to be able to discern right from wrong? Not really, but Adam jumped the gun. In union with God, Adam could subdue his body. Out of union with God, because sinful people cannot be on God's presence, Adam was powerless, unable to subdue his body. It became a body of death: aware of right and wrong, but not able to always choose to do right. The desired result is to be able to discern, and then be able to choose, right.

Is there a situation where the law exists, where a person can judge right from wrong, but still be exempt from its penalizing force? Yes, if a new set of rules is put into place.


THE OLD SITUATION:

There is right and wrong.

Your mind knows what is right and wrong, unless you have not reached the full age of reason, or are insane.

Your body is controlled by natural drives, needs and wants, not by the desire to do right.

THE OLD RULES:

The requirement is to do the right thing.

If you know right from wrong and do wrong, you will be punished.



THE NEW SITUATION:

There is right and wrong.

THE NEW RULES:

If you are not born again, know right from wrong and do wrong, you will be punished if you do wrong.

Only the following people are not under the force of the law:

You have not reached the full age of reason, or are insane.

You are born again.

People who are born again are in Christ.

Christ formed the new rules. He could. Because he went through a process where he could form rules. He gave up everything and followed God. God was pleased to give him the Kingdom. He could bind or loosen. He didn't abolish the law. He made a category of people who were not under its power, the born again, those who are not inhabitants of this world. They are in this world but not of this world. Those who lived natural lives come under the power of the law. Those who lived spiritually, by the Holy Spirit, were the category to whom the law did not apply.

See, law exists. It rules men. Christ won the ability to represent men. He gave up his life. He took on all the penalties of the law. Law exists but it's power has vanished. All the debts have been paid.

It's like the bounty hunter with no fugitives to catch. The party that was under the rules that the old agreement had jurisdiction over has died. The agreement therefore does not have any force. Sentence has been carried out, death row is empty. Those who are IN Christ are a different party. They have a new agreement. Under the new agreement, those who are IN favor with God are not bound by rules.

Is there a situation where rules exist, people are able to tell right from wrong, but are not under the jurisdiction of the law? There is. It's the situation that diplomats find themselves in. They are not under the jurisdiction of the laws of the country they are assigned to, because they are not in that country. They walk in a bubble that is part of their home country. Even the Embassy is part of their home country.

Does this mean that this privilege is to be used to freely break the law? Not really, born again believers use this privilige to be free from the penalizing effects of the law, to be free from wrath, while they put to death, subdue the deeds of the flesh, the natural drives, by the Holy Spirit, by being in union with God. That's the privilege Adam had enjoyed: immunity from law, ability to subdue creation, including his own natural drives. This is eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:45So also it is written, “The firstMAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

What if the diplomat does not use this union with God to put to death the deeds of his body? Then he loses his ability to continue as a diplomat. He will be recalled.

Romans 8:13 For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live.

This is a big chunk of information. But it's coherent, as well as being comprehensive. It can withstand critiquing.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Can a situation exist where law reigns but people are immune from its force? Sure. Juveniles can commit crimes but be exempt from the penalty of the law, because they are immature, do not have sufficient judgmental abilities, mental competency. As are the insane, for the latter reason, too. Adam was immune, being under the first category, unable to discern right from wrong because of immaturity, until he chose to have the ability to discern right from wrong, the ability to make the right calls. Is it wrong to be able to discern right from wrong? Not really, but Adam jumped the gun. In union with God, Adam could subdue his body. Out of union with God, because sinful people cannot be on God's presence, Adam was powerless, unable to subdue his body. It became a body of death: aware of right and wrong, but not able to always choose to do right. The desired result is to be able to discern, and then be able to choose, right.

Is there a situation where the law exists, where a person can judge right from wrong, but still be exempt from its penalizing force? Yes, if a new set of rules is put into place.


THE OLD SITUATION:

There is right and wrong.

Your mind knows what is right and wrong, unless you have not reached the full age of reason, or are insane.

Your body is controlled by natural drives, needs and wants, not by the desire to do right.

THE OLD RULES:

The requirement is to do the right thing.

If you know right from wrong and do wrong, you will be punished.



THE NEW SITUATION:

There is right and wrong.

THE NEW RULES:

If you are not born again, know right from wrong and do wrong, you will be punished if you do wrong.

Only the following people are not under the force of the law:

You have not reached the full age of reason, or are insane.

You are born again.

People who are born again are in Christ.

Christ formed the new rules. He could. Because he went through a process where he could form rules. He gave up everything and followed God. God was pleased to give him the Kingdom. He could bind or loosen. He didn't abolish the law. He made a category of people who were not under its power, the born again, those who are not inhabitants of this world. They are in this world but not of this world. Those who lived natural lives come under the power of the law. Those who lived spiritually, by the Holy Spirit, were the category to whom the law did not apply.

See, law exists. It rules men. Christ won the ability to represent men. He gave up his life. He took on all the penalties of the law. Law exists but it's power has vanished. All the debts have been paid.

It's like the bounty hunter with no fugitives to catch. The party that was under the rules that the old agreement had jurisdiction over has died. The agreement therefore does not have any force. Sentence has been carried out, death row is empty. Those who are IN Christ are a different party. They have a new agreement. Under the new agreement, those who are IN favor with God are not bound by rules.

Is there a situation where rules exist, people are able to tell right from wrong, but are not under the jurisdiction of the law? There is. It's the situation that diplomats find themselves in. They are not under the jurisdiction of the laws of the country they are assigned to, because they are not in that country. They walk in a bubble that is part of their home country. Even the Embassy is part of their home country.

Does this mean that this privilege is to be used to freely break the law? Not really, born again believers use this privilige to be free from the penalizing effects of the law, to be free from wrath, while they put to death, subdue the deeds of the flesh, the natural drives, by the Holy Spirit, by being in union with God. That's the privilege Adam had enjoyed: immunity from law, ability to subdue creation, including his own natural drives. This is eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:45So also it is written, “The firstMAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

What if the diplomat does not use this union with God to put to death the deeds of his body? Then he loses his ability to continue as a diplomat. He will be recalled.

Romans 8:13 For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live.

This is a big chunk of information. But it's coherent, as well as being comprehensive. It can withstand critiquing.

The truth will always stand critiquing
But let us not forget that none of us perfectly follows the blueprint as it were. But we have a faithful saviour:
If we are faithless he remains faithful
For he cannot disown himself
2 Tim 2:13
God bless

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Maturity is growth in knowledge and wisdom, not obedience?
Oh well.

My apologies. I wrote that wrong. Maturity is obedience, too (For love is made perfect in obeying His Word - See 1 John 2:5).

Also, not that you convinced me in any way (by anything you said), but I did continue to keep reading more on 1 Corinthians 3. I was reading over 1 Corinthians and commentaries on 1 Corinthians 3 and I am now leaning in the direction that there are different degrees of carnality. Some carnal ways (or sins) are not sins that lead unto spiritual death (For sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death, see: 1 John 5:16-18; cf. Revelation 21:8 and 1 Peter 3:21). Corinthians had some spiritual fruit but they had a small minor carnal issue that needed to be worked out. For the Corinthian church as a whole was not murdering, committing adultery, stealing, hating, and getting drunk, etc. This would obviously be a level of carnality that would not be acceptable to God (and such grevious would be sins that would lead unto death - See Revelation 21:8). For in Corinthians 6:9, Paul says know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God?

Side Note:

I re-edited my posts above to remove my former comments in regards to 1 Corinthians 3.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A perfect example of twisting scripture to make it say anything you want it to say. Paul wrote to christians at Corinth and referred to them as carnal because of how they acted. Jealousy and quarelling were given as two examples.

I admit that I wanted 1 Corinthians 3 to refer to these Christians as being unsaved. But after going over the text again and again, God talked to my heart that their carnality was not on the same the level of carnaltiy as say murder, adultery, theft, idolatry, and drunkeness, etc. I believe in time it could have headed in that direction if Paul did not rebuke them (Hence Paul's warning in 1 Corinthians 6:9). We also have to take note that in 2nd Corinthians, Paul hears that they repented with a Godly sorrow (2 Corinthians 7:10). So the Corinthian church at some later point had reached a state whereby Paul desired for them to repent. This repentance was for them to continue in the Sanctification process and be more holy and righteous before God so as to continue in their walk with the Lord (and remain in Him, i.e. His salvation). Paul ends with a warning to the Corinthians not to sin again like this by pointing out that they are to continually prove whether or not Christ lives within them (unless they turn out to be reprobate) (2 Corinthians 13:5).

And just to reiterate, you don't want to obey out of love, but fear of hell if you dont.
That is not loving God by any standard

Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the soul but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Can a situation exist where law reigns but people are immune from its force? Sure. Juveniles can commit crimes but be exempt from the penalty of the law, because they are immature, do not have sufficient judgmental abilities, mental competency. As are the insane, for the latter reason, too. Adam was immune, being under the first category, unable to discern right from wrong because of immaturity, until he chose to have the ability to discern right from wrong, the ability to make the right calls. Is it wrong to be able to discern right from wrong? Not really, but Adam jumped the gun. In union with God, Adam could subdue his body. Out of union with God, because sinful people cannot be on God's presence, Adam was powerless, unable to subdue his body. It became a body of death: aware of right and wrong, but not able to always choose to do right. The desired result is to be able to discern, and then be able to choose, right. Is there a situation where the law exists, where a person can judge right from wrong, but still be exempt from its penalizing force? Yes, if a new set of rules is put into place.

But we are not children or individuals who are unaware of right from wrong.

God's Word says,

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
(1 Corinthians 13:11).

Meaning, we are not children. Meaning, we are to put away childish things. But in your belief you do not have to put away childish things. You do not have to love and yet you can say you are saved. But he that does not love does not know God (1 John 4:8); And Christ (God) is the source of our salvation. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).

As for Adam: Well, Adam was not without knowing what was right and wrong entirely. Adam and Eve both knew that it was wrong to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil and they knew it was the right thing to do in regards to not eating of it. Adam was still judged by God for his wrong action. Otherwise why would God get upset with Adam? It wouldn't make any sense if Adam couldn't have obeyed or done the right thing or if he was not aware of doing the right thing.

THE OLD SITUATION:

There is right and wrong.

Your mind knows what is right and wrong, unless you have not reached the full age of reason, or are insane.

Your body is controlled by natural drives, needs and wants, not by the desire to do right.

THE OLD RULES:

The requirement is to do the right thing.

If you know right from wrong and do wrong, you will be punished.

No, Paul says Abraham was justified by faith just like we are. The author of Hebrews draws from great men of God and their faith as an example of how we are to have faith. Faith in who? A set of rules alone? No. Abraham did not trust in a set of rules alone, but he trusted in God.

Also men in the Old Testament were born again, too.
Unless of course you believe Isaac was not born of the Spirit as Galatians 4:29 says.

28 "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now."
(Galatians 4:28-29).

THE NEW SITUATION:

There is right and wrong.

THE NEW RULES:

If you are not born again, know right from wrong and do wrong, you will be punished if you do wrong.

Only the following people are not under the force of the law:

You have not reached the full age of reason, or are insane.

You are born again.

People who are born again are in Christ.

Christ formed the new rules. He could. Because he went through a process where he could form rules. He gave up everything and followed God. God was pleased to give him the Kingdom. He could bind or loosen. He didn't abolish the law. He made a category of people who were not under its power, the born again, those who are not inhabitants of this world. They are in this world but not of this world. Those who lived natural lives come under the power of the law. Those who lived spiritually, by the Holy Spirit, were the category to whom the law did not apply.

See, law exists. It rules men. Christ won the ability to represent men. He gave up his life. He took on all the penalties of the law. Law exists but it's power has vanished. All the debts have been paid.

It's like the bounty hunter with no fugitives to catch. The party that was under the rules that the old agreement had jurisdiction over has died. The agreement therefore does not have any force. Sentence has been carried out, death row is empty. Those who are IN Christ are a different party. They have a new agreement. Under the new agreement, those who are IN favor with God are not bound by rules.

Is there a situation where rules exist, people are able to tell right from wrong, but are not under the jurisdiction of the law? There is. It's the situation that diplomats find themselves in. They are not under the jurisdiction of the laws of the country they are assigned to, because they are not in that country. They walk in a bubble that is part of their home country. Even the Embassy is part of their home country.

Does this mean that this privilege is to be used to freely break the law? Not really, born again believers use this privilige to be free from the penalizing effects of the law, to be free from wrath, while they put to death, subdue the deeds of the flesh, the natural drives, by the Holy Spirit, by being in union with God. That's the privilege Adam had enjoyed: immunity from law, ability to subdue creation, including his own natural drives. This is eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:45So also it is written, “The firstMAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

What if the diplomat does not use this union with God to put to death the deeds of his body? Then he loses his ability to continue as a diplomat. He will be recalled.

Romans 8:13 For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live.

This is a big chunk of information. But it's coherent, as well as being comprehensive. It can withstand critiquing.

Romans 8:13 actually says,
"For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live."

Seeing everyone dies physically, Paul is talking about spiritual death here. For Paul is contrasting two different mind sets. Those who live after the flesh and those walk after the Spirit and put to death the fleshy deeds of the body (Whereby they will have life).

6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
(Romans 8:6-8).

Did you catch what it said?

They that are in the flesh cannot please God.
How are people that do not please God going to be in Heaven with Him?


...

 

[Arsenios]

How are people that do not please God going to be in Heaven with Him?
...

The dead outside of Christ
are judged differently
than than those who are Living in Christ...

To whom much is given...
Much is asked...

Worst case is those who have known Christ and fallen away...

Arsenios

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The dead outside of Christ
are judged differently
than than those who are Living in Christ...

To whom much is given...
Much is asked...

Worst case is those who have known Christ and fallen away...

Arsenios

Scripture says,

11 "And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he said unto him, Friend, how came you in here not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen"
(Matthew 22:11-14).

Please take note that the wedding garment is the same wedding garment for the saints in Revelation.

7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his wife has made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of saints"
(Revelation 19:7-8).

In other words, those who do not have any righteous acts (i.e. a wedding garment) will be cast into outer darkness.

Then there is Matthew 13:41-42.

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
(Matthew 13:41-42).

In other words, those who profess to be a part of Christ's Kingdom who work iniquity (sin) will be gathered in the end by Christ's angels and cast into the furnace of fire to be destroyed.

Not sure how you can twist these passages as saying something different than what they say plainly.

There are of course more passages, but hopefully the above should give you an idea that believers are not above being punished in the after life for disobeying God's Commands. Why? Well, God is not a respecter of persons.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Another big one is Matthew 7. Jesus says in Matthew 7:21 that not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but it is he that does the will of the Father. What is doing the will of the Father or the will of God according to Scripture? 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says God's will for us is our Sanctification or holiness. In fact, Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness no man shall see the Lord. Then to make it even more obvious Jesus says in Matthew 7:26-27 that he that does not do what he says is like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand whereby a storm came and it destroyed that house greatly. This is in view of those Jesus saying to certain believers to depart from him for they worked iniquity (sin) (Matthew 7:23).

Again, there are even more passages like this.
The question is, do you want to hear it?


...

 

[Wordkeeper]

But we are not children or individuals who are unaware of right from wrong.

God's Word says,

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
(1 Corinthians 13:11).

Are you saying the passage deals with the topic of becoming adequately competent mentally, being able to tell right from wrong (which children cannot do adequately enough for them to live by themselves in the world, but adults can)? Because if you are, you'd be wrong: it's actually dealing with the topic of how our knowledge of God will never be adequate until we meet Him in the future face to face.

Meaning, we are not children. Meaning, we are to put away childish things.

Paul says we will be limited in our knowledge of God until we see him face to face. The only things that are not limited NOW is our faith, hope and love, of which the thing most appreciated by God is our love for Him.

But in your belief you do not have to put away childish things.

The fact is you can't put away your inadequate knowledge about GOD. You just have to wait till you meet God face to face. Then, everything will be revealed .

You do not have to love and yet you can say you are saved.

Not true. Our knowledge is limited but our love is not. The text says that specifically, that we can love God adequately now.

1 Corinthians 15:13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

No one can say they are saved. Even Paul says that he keeps striving so that it will not turn out that whilst helping others to be saved he himself fails to reach salvation.

1 Corinthians 9:27But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

But he that does not love does not know God (1 John 4:8); And Christ (God) is the source of our salvation. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).

Correct. No one said anything against this. Show me where I said a person can fail to love and yet be saved.

As for Adam: Well, Adam was not without knowing what was right and wrong entirely. Adam and Eve both knew that it was wrong to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil and they knew it was the right thing to do in regards to not eating of it. Adam was still judged by God for his wrong action. Otherwise why would God get upset with Adam? It wouldn't make any sense if Adam couldn't have obeyed or done the right thing or if he was not aware of doing the right thing.

Think again. Do children have the ability to make the right calls?

God told Adam not to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil just like you tell your children not to play in traffic. It was a warning, not a command. A warning does not require a listener to have the ability to make the right call. It IS the right call. There is no right and wrong way to play in traffic.

A command does require the hearer to have the ability to make a right call. When God commands us not to kill, He is asking us to make the right call: there are situations where killing is necessary and situations where it isn't.

No, Paul says Abraham was justified by faith just like we are. The author of Hebrews draws from great men of God and their faith as an example of how we are to have faith. Faith in who? A set of rules alone? No. Abraham did not trust in a set of rules alone, but he trusted in God.

Also men in the Old Testament were born again, too.

Unless of course you believe Isaac was not born of the Spirit as Galatians 4:29 says.

28 "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now."
(Galatians 4:28-29).

Be careful of the definitions.

Salvation is being able to be a blessing to the world.
Salvation is possible by receiving grace.
Grace is received when we are without sin.
Where there is no law there is no transgression, sin.


Was Abraham a blessing to the world? No be wasn't , his seed was.

Romans 8:13 actually says,
"For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live."

Seeing everyone dies physically, Paul is talking about spiritual death here. For Paul is contrasting two different mind sets. Those who live after the flesh and those walk after the Spirit and put to death the fleshy deeds of the body (Whereby they will have life).

6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
(Romans 8:6-8).

Did you catch what it said?

They that are in the flesh cannot please God.
How are people that do not please God going to be in Heaven with Him?
...

Actually, spiritual living, eternal life, which the Jews searched the Scriptures for, isn't going to heaven, but receiving the promise made to Abraham, is being fulfilled, completing the purpose of our creation by God. We were created to be subduers of the world, in partnership with God. Adam became culpable by ignoring a warning and lost grace giving fellowship with God. Christ won grace giving fellowship back for all men through obedience. Those who believe Christ is the savior can be in Him, and can live, fulfill the reason they were created.

In summarizing, those who believe in Christ are in Him, can be in grace receiving fellowship with God, because they have been extracted from the old covenant which made them transgressors, making them non transgressors, and the pure can surely see God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Are you saying the passage deals with the topic of becoming adequately competent mentally, being able to tell right from wrong (which children cannot do adequately enough for them to live by themselves in the world, but adults can)? Because if you are, you'd be wrong: it's actually dealing with the topic of how our knowledge of God will never be adequate until we meet Him in the future face to face.

No. 1 Corinthians 13:11 is a point that builds up to 1 Corinthians 14 of speaking in unknown tongue with no interpreter (See 1 Corinthians 14:19-20). However, the general broad application of putting away childish things in being a man of God (Who puts away sin or evil) is still applicable.

Ecclesiastes 11:10 says,
"Therefore remove sorrow from thy heart, and put away evil from thy flesh: for childhood and youth are vanity."

2 Timothy 2:22 says,
"So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart"

Paul says we will be limited in our knowledge of God until we see him face to face. The only things that are not limited NOW is our faith, hope and love, of which the thing most appreciated by God is our love for Him.

Mature adults know when to put away childish things. Yes. That is what Paul is saying.

But you are without excuse if you are suggesting you are not under the penalty of any law whereby you think you can sin and still be saved. If that is what you are saying: Well, it doesn't work like that.

Jesus says,

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48).

In other words, if you reject the words of Jesus, they will judge you on the last day.

What words of Jesus can a person reject today?

Well, many Christians today reject the following words of Jesus,

28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if your right eye causes you to offend, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to offend, cut it off, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell."
(Matthew 5:28-30).

They do not believe Jesus's words above. They do not think they are under any penalty of law of any kind and that looking upon a woman in lust will not necessarily be cause for them to be cast into hell fire bodily (even though that is what Jesus said).

The fact is you can't put away your inadequate knowledge about GOD. You just have to wait till you meet God face to face. Then, everything will be revealed .

Not true. Our knowledge is limited but our love is not. The text says that specifically, that we can love God adequately now.

1 Corinthians 15:13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

But love is a free will choice of the believer. A believer has to choose every day in whom they will serve and not just a one time decsion to accept Christ (that supposedly makes them secure in Christ the rest of their life). Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Trembling added to the word "fear" makes it sound like "fear" is indeed speaking of "fear." However, many in popular camps of Christianity try to change that word to mean something else.

No one can say they are saved. Even Paul says that he keeps striving so that it will not turn out that whilst helping others to be saved he himself fails to reach salvation.

1 Corinthians 9:27But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Believers can have an assurance of their salvation today. John said this in his epistle to other believers,

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13).

However, this is not in conflict with a believer having to fight the good fight and endure in their faith to the end. We do have to be faithful to God in this life. For without faith, it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6). We do have to live holy. For without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). We do have to bring forth works. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

Correct. No one said anything against this. Show me where I said a person can fail to love and yet be saved.

Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). So any time somebody fails to keep His commandments they are not loving Jesus. Hence the importance of keeping His Word.

Think again. Do children have the ability to make the right calls?

Believe whatever you like. The children of the Kingdom will be cast into outer darkness. This is obviously speaking to believers and not actual children (Matthew 8:12).

God told Adam not to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil just like you tell your children not to play in traffic. It was a warning, not a command. A warning does not require a listener to have the ability to make the right call. It IS the right call. There is no right and wrong way to play in traffic.

No. God did command Adam to not eat of the tree. It says so in your Bible. For it is written,

16 "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die."

God even tells Adam the consequences of what would happen if he did eat of the wrong tree.
God said if he ate of the wrong tree he would die.
So Adam knew of the consequence of what was to happen if he did the wrong thing.

A command does require the hearer to have the ability to make a right call. When God commands us not to kill, He is asking us to make the right call: there are situations where killing is necessary and situations where it isn't.

No. Under the New Covenant, we are not to take life for any reason. Jesus said no longer are we to render an eye for an eye but we are to turn the other cheek instead (Matthew 5:38-39).

As for Jesus telling his disciples to buy a sword: This was in reference to the spiritual sword (See Ephesians 6). For Jesus rebuked Peter for using his sword, which shows us that his disciples misunderstood what he said (Which was not the only time that they have misunderstood Jesus).

Salvation is being able to be a blessing to the world.
Salvation is possible by receiving grace.
Grace is received when we are without sin.
Where there is no law there is no transgression, sin.

There are Laws exclusive to the New Covenant and not the Old Covenant.

There is the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2),
There is the Royal Law (James 2:8),
There is the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25),
There is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2).

Are you saying you are not under any of the Laws above?

In fact, if you are saying you are not under any penalty of the Law, then you cannot be under the following Command (or Law) that says,

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment" (1 John 3:23).

This means you are not under any kind of penalty in not loving one another as he gave us commandment (because you stated that you are not under the Law). However, the Scriptures say,

He that does not love does not know God (1 John 4:8).

Was Abraham a blessing to the world? No be wasn't , his seed was.

Jesus was that seed of blessing. It says "seed" singular and not "seeds" plural (See Galatians 3:16).
In other words, thru Jesus Christ the world would be blessed.

Actually, spiritual living, eternal life, which the Jews searched the Scriptures for, isn't going to heaven, but receiving the promise made to Abraham, is being fulfilled, completing the purpose of our creation by God. We were created to be subduers of the world, in partnership with God. Adam became culpable by ignoring a warning and lost grace giving fellowship with God. Christ won grace giving fellowship back for all men through obedience. Those who believe Christ is the savior can be in Him, and can live, fulfill the reason they were created.

Obedience is not a one time event. Obedience is a continued walk in the Lord. Well, I am hoping you believe obedience is a walk and not a one time decision or one time prayer like many Christians believe today.

As for going to heaven: Well, certain believers will be in Heaven after the Pre-Trib Rapture. But all believers ultimate destiny will be on the Eternal New Earth, though (After the Millennium - which is still yet future).

Jesus is a blessing both in this life and in the next.

In summarizing, those who believe in Christ are in Him, can be in grace receiving fellowship with God, because they have been extracted from the old covenant which made them transgressors, making them non transgressors, and the pure can surely see God.

No. Even Old Testament saints had to live by faith in God and trust in Him for their salvation.
While there are some differences, things were not that much different between the Old and the New.


...

 

[Wordkeeper]

No. 1 Corinthians 13:11 is a point that builds up to 1 Corinthians 14 of speaking in unknown tongue with no interpreter (See 1 Corinthians 14:19-20). However, the general broad application of putting away childish things in being a man of God (Who puts away sin or evil) is still applicable.

Ecclesiastes 11:10 says,
"Therefore remove sorrow from thy heart, and put away evil from thy flesh: for childhood and youth are vanity."

2 Timothy 2:22 says,
"So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart"



Mature adults know when to put away childish things. Yes. That is what Paul is saying.

But you are without excuse if you are suggesting you are not under the penalty of any law whereby you think you can sin and still be saved. If that is what you are saying: Well, it doesn't work like that.

Jesus says,

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48).

In other words, if you reject the words of Jesus, they will judge you on the last day.

What words of Jesus can a person reject today?

Well, many Christians today reject the following words of Jesus,

28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if your right eye causes you to offend, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to offend, cut it off, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell."
(Matthew 5:28-30).

They do not believe Jesus's words above. They do not think they are under any penalty of law of any kind and that lookig upon a woman in lust will not necessarily be cause for them to be cast into hell fire bodily (even though that is what Jesus said).



But love is a free will choice of the believer. A believer has to choose every day in whom they will serve and not just a one time decsion to accept Christ (that supposedly makes them secure in Christ the rest of their life). Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Trembling added to the word "fear" makes it sound like "fear" is indeed speaking of "fear." However, many in popular camps of Christianity try to change that word to mean something else.



Believers can have an assurance of their salvation today. John said this in his epistle to other believers,

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13).

However, this is not in conflict with a believer having to fight the good fight and endure in their faith to the end. We do have to be faithful to God in this life. For without faith, it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6). We do have to live holy. For without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). We do have to bring forth works. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).



Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). So any time somebody fails to keep His commandments they are not loving Jesus. Hence the importance of keeping His Word.



Believe whatever you like. The children of the Kingdom will be cast into outer darkness. This is obviously speaking to believers and not actual children (Matthew 8:12).



No. God did command Adam to not eat of the tree. It says so in your Bible. For it is written,

16 "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die."

God even tells Adam the consequences of what would happen if he did eat of the wrong tree.
God said if he ate of the wrong tree he would die.
So Adam knew of the consequence of what was to happen if he did the wrong thing.



No. Under the New Covenant, we are not to take life for any reason. Jesus said no longer are we to render an eye for an eye but we are to turn the other cheek instead (Matthew 5:38-39).

As for Jesus telling his disciples to buy a sword: This was in reference to the spiritual sword (See Ephesians 6). For Jesus rebuked Peter for using his sword, which shows us that his disciples misunderstood what he said (Which was not the only time that they have misunderstood Jesus).



There are Laws exclusive to the New Covenant and not the Old Covenant.

There is the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2),
There is the Royal Law (James 2:8),
There is the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25),
There is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2).

Are you saying you are not under any of the Laws above?

In fact, if you are saying you are not under any penalty of the Law, then you cannot be under the following Command (or Law) that says,

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment" (1 John 3:23).

This means you are not under any kind of penalty in not loving one another as he gave us commandment (because you stated that you are not under the Law). However, the Scriptures say,

He that does not love does not know God (1 John 4:8).



Jesus was that seed of blessing. It says "seed" singular and not "seeds" plural (See Galatians 3:16).
In other words, thru Jesus Christ the world would be blessed.



Obedience is not a one time event. Obedience is a continued walk in the Lord. Well, I am hoping you believe obedience is a walk and not a one time decision or one time prayer like many Christians believe today.

As for going to heaven: Well, certain believers will be in Heaven after the Pre-Trib Rapture. But all believers ultimate destiny will be on the Eternal New Earth, though (After the Millennium - which is still yet future).

Jesus is a blessing both in this life and in the next.



No. Even Old Testament saints had to live by faith in God and trust in Him for their salvation.
While there are some differences, things were not that much different between the Old and the New.


...

Each of your points needs time to answer. I won't avoid any point, but I suggest we discuss one issue at a time. Is that okay?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Each of your points needs time to answer. I won't avoid any point, but I suggest we discuss one issue at a time. Is that okay?

Concerning this thread:
I would only respond to each point in regards to the topic of Soteriology (i.e. the Study of Salvation) for the believer today.

As for the discussion of whether or not OT saints are saved the same way as NT saints and or whether or not they are born again:
I already created a thread for that here:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/old-testament-saints-were-born-again.7943214/

As for the other topics you brought up: Well, I would suggest that you respond to such topics by creating a new thread and give me the link so as to discuss them. I believe the topic of discussion of this thread is on the topic of Soteriology because it is talking about the gospel (Which is a means of our salvation). Discussion about certain verses like 1 Corinthians 13 seems to be going in another direction with you. So if you want to discuss that topic and or other non-soteriology type topics (just create a thread and provide a thread link) and I will try and reply black when I have the time.

Thank you.
And may God bless you.

...

 

[Wordkeeper]

Concerning this thread:
I would only respond to each point in regards to the topic of Soteriology (i.e. the Study of Salvation) for the believer today.

As for the discussion of whether or not OT saints are saved the same way as NT saints and or whether or not they are born again:
I already created a thread for that here:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/old-testament-saints-were-born-again.7943214/

As for the other topics you brought up: Well, I would suggest that you respond to such topics by creating a new thread and give me the link so as to discuss them. I believe the topic of discussion of this thread is on the topic of Soteriology because it is talking about the gospel (Which is a means of our salvation). Discussion about certain verses like 1 Corinthians 13 seems to be going in another direction with you. So if you want to discuss that topic and or other non-soteriology type topics (just create a thread and provide a thread link) and I will try and reply black when I have the time.

Thank you.
And may God bless you.

...

Sure, but a single post may be enough to convince you and save us the work of creating a new thread. If this post does not convince, I WILL start a new thread.

Let's start here:


1 Corinthians 12:7 NET Bible
To each person the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the benefit of all.


This verse tells us that each believer has received a gift to bless the church.


12:31But you should be eager for the greater gifts. And now I will show you a way that is beyond comparison.


This tells us that the believer should be eager to possess the greater gifts. However the best gifts are not the revelation gifts, but the lifestyle gifts, faith, hope and love. And the greatest is love.


Why is love the greatest gift? Because if a believer is a genius, can understand and teach the most difficult Bible topic, but does not love, then he is like a loud bell.

What example can i give?

If i share that the essence of the Bible is to treat others as i would like to be treated, and then tell a brother who is cold and hungry that i would pray for him, that is exactly where the situation described in the text has been displayed. My life is not agreeing with my views. I'm like a noisy bell.

Love blesses the church like no other gift can bless. Bible knowledge is like a child talking, because perfect knowledge will be possessed only when we see God face to face. At that time, my childish knowledge will be useless and must be put away, but my experience with using my gift of love will never be put away.

Knowledge ends, but love does not.



I'm afraid there is no teaching in the Bible which says we will become perfect in our knowledge about God in this world, or that knowing right and wrong makes us fall under the oppression of the law, if that is what you're saying:

Jason 0047 wrote:
But we are not children or individuals who are unaware of right from wrong.

God's Word says,

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
(1 Corinthians 13:11).


Our knowledge is book knowledge like reading a travel magazine, a biography. True knowledge only comes when we see the place with our own eyes, meet the person written about.

Our freedom from the jurisdiction of the law does not happen because we lack the knowledge of good and evil like Adam, or minors, or the insane. Our freedom from the persecution of the law comes because the old humanity, which was a party to the old covenant, has died in Christ. We are free to become members of the new man, risen in Christ, and thus be a party to the new covenant.

Thanks for reading and God bless you too.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sure, but a single post may be enough to convince you and save us the work of creating a new thread. If this post does not convince, I WILL start a new thread.

Let's start here:


1 Corinthians 12:7 NET Bible
To each person the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the benefit of all.


This verse tells us that each believer has received a gift to bless the church.


12:31But you should be eager for the greater gifts. And now I will show you a way that is beyond comparison.


This tells us that the believer should be eager to possess the greater gifts. However the best gifts are not the revelation gifts, but the lifestyle gifts, faith, hope and love. And the greatest is love.


Why is love the greatest gift? Because if a believer is a genius, can understand and teach the most difficult Bible topic, but does not love, then he is like a loud bell.

What example can i give?

If i share that the essence of the Bible is to treat others as i would like to be treated, and then tell a brother who is cold and hungry that i would pray for him, that is exactly where the situation described in the text has been displayed. My life is not agreeing with my views. I'm like a noisy bell.

Love blesses the church like no other gift can bless. Bible knowledge is like a child talking, because perfect knowledge will be possessed only when we see God face to face. At that time, my childish knowledge will be useless and must be put away, but my experience with using my gift of love will never be put away.

Knowledge ends, but love does not.



I'm afraid there is no teaching in the Bible which says we will become perfect in our knowledge about God in this world, or that knowing right and wrong makes us fall under the oppression of the law, if that is what you're saying:

Jason 0047 wrote:
But we are not children or individuals who are unaware of right from wrong.

God's Word says,

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
(1 Corinthians 13:11).


Our knowledge is book knowledge like reading a travel magazine, a biography. True knowledge only comes when we see the place with our own eyes, meet the person written about.

Our freedom from the jurisdiction of the law does not happen because we lack the knowledge of good and evil like Adam, or minors, or the insane. Our freedom from the persecution of the law comes because the old humanity, which was a party to the old covenant, has died in Christ. We are free to become members of the new man, risen in Christ, and thus be a party to the new covenant.

Thanks for reading and God bless you too.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-quoted-as-a-discussion-on-salvation.7944911/


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

Another big one is Matthew 7. Jesus says in Matthew 7:21 that not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but it is he that does the will of the Father.


...

The will of the father is you love him and his son.
Jesus commands can be summed up as:
Love God and love your neighbour.
If you love Jesus you will obey out of love for him and his father.
Oh the awful/ dark religion of those who don't obey as proof of their love for Christ, but rather fear of hell if they don't.
They have missed the true message, and the heart of the gospel is not in their life.
A religion driven by fear of hell, is not driven by love of Christ and his father

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The will of the father is you love him and his son.
Jesus commands can be summed up as:
Love God and love your neighbour.
If you love Jesus you will obey out of love for him and his father.
Oh the awful/ dark religion of those who don't obey as proof of their love for Christ, but rather fear of hell if they don't.
They have missed the true message, and the heart of the gospel is not in their life.
A religion driven by fear of hell, is not driven by love of Christ and his father

The Bible says,
"By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil."
(Proverbs 16:6).

Also, Jesus and his followers never said to just follow the two greatest commands of Jesus and ignore the rest of what He said and or what they said. It would be silly to have commands in your Bible whereby we did not really need to do them. They are not suggestive commands. God's Word is the instruction manual for your life. Jesus says abide in me and abide in my Word. Jesus says if someones does not do what he says they are like a fool who built their house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

"But whoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: by this we know that we are in him." (1 John 2:5).

"He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

As for the will of the Father or the will of God:

1 Thessalonians 4:3 says,

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification,"

The New Living Translation for 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says,

"God's will is for you to be holy"

So who am I going to believe?
You or Scripture?

I choose Scripture.



...

 

[stuart lawrence]

The Bible says,
"By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil."
(Proverbs 16:6).

Also, Jesus and his followers never said to just follow the two greatest commands of Jesus and ignore the rest of what He said and or what they said. It would be silly to have commands in your Bible whereby we did not really need to do them. They are not suggestive commands. God's Word is the instruction manual for your life. Jesus says abide in me and abide in my Word. Jesus says if someones does not do what he says they are like a fool who built their house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

"But whoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: by this we know that we are in him." (1 John 2:5).

"He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

As for the will of the Father or the will of God:

1 Thessalonians 4:3 says,

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification,"

The New Living Translation for 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says,

"God's will is for you to be holy"

So who am I going to believe?
You or Scripture?

I choose Scripture.



...

Anyone who obeys the first and greatest commandment does not seek to obey through fear of hell if they don't. And it would be impossible, if you obey the first and greatest commandment to view the removal of the penalty for sin as a licence to happily sin as much as you want.

 

[Rick Otto]

The will of the father is you love him and his son.
Jesus commands can be summed up as:
Love God and love your neighbour.
If you love Jesus you will obey out of love for him and his father.
Oh the awful/ dark religion of those who don't obey as proof of their love for Christ, but rather fear of hell if they don't.
They have missed the true message, and the heart of the gospel is not in their life.
A religion driven by fear of hell, is not driven by love of Christ and his father

QFT.
When evangelists turn to fear, they lose me every time.

 

[Noxot]

hah yeah fear, i got plenty of that so i know how deceptive it is. it makes one quite sickly. fear of hell ultimately comes from hell itself unless the fear of hell means something like "I fear hell because there I am not with God and I do not want to be without God". fear is useful for sinners. I think this quote of swedenborgs speaks the truth though it is not true for all people.