Discussion God's special choosing favour, love, treasure and disappointment in Israel.

[GoldenKingGaze]

Hi, I am looking at Israel and the changing relationship between God and Israel since Jacob was alive on Earth. Israel was special to God and chosen to bear God's favour, serve God, sometimes gentiles, and bear the privilege and burden of the revelation of Himself to humanity.

It seemed there was a limiting factor as to what He could do with men and women. Adam could not endure God's fire, and the Exodus Hebrews could not either. Then I recall Abraham and it seems God needed his willingness to sacrifice Isaac to take up the cause of Isaac's children first, then the gentiles. And the crucifixion fulfilled this, for the Jews first, then the gentiles. Including Ethiopians who at a different time were sacrificed in place of Hebrews, 5000 of them, to show the Hebrews the importance of their prominent position in the election of people to receive God's love and serve Him. Israel, the chosen people, the first born, the tithe, the holy and blessed, who knew God.

Israel was given the law as a means to true righteousness, by Moses who knew God and the worship in Heaven intimately. Moses trained in the most advanced civilized methods ever known to the educated up until that time. Moses and God used laws.

Israel tried to live under YHWH's laws and lamb's blood sacrifice and had the presence of God in the pillar of fire for forty years, but retained the ark of the covenant and temple and angels of light. Over time and failures and successes, it seemed an intimate relationship with God through the ark and the anointing and angels, a bit like Moses made for Israel's greats. Greats prophets helped Israel endure exile and recover and they lost the temple and gained synagogues focusing of the Torah.

Gradually God shows Israel, blessing is not only for them as in Isaiah 56, about eunuch's privileges and gentiles enjoined to Israel. There is also Jonah converting Ninevah. And King David was descended from a Moabitess, according to the book of Ruth.

Blessing on multitudes of Hebrews and being first born remains an ongoing special privilege to Israel. They are called to serve and themselves prosper and be content.

Jesus taught that the Pharisees were in error for looking for salvation in reading the laws of Moses the Torah.

Jesus gave us promises of living water, anointing, bread of life, fire and gave us the crucifixion works, healing, overcoming sin, and victory over death for all, Jews and Gentiles. There is nothing more to give than Jesus Christ and His blood. It seems God's favour has become somewhat even between Jew and Gentile.

Abraham's sacrifice is fulfilled, the abundance God wanted is for all now. And there was a time when it was possible, God would finish off all people and leave only Moses' children. But The limiter is broken and will be even more broken when Jesus returns, and Israel will still have it's legacy of blessings and first born privileges and responsibilities and we will be served and serve and have great blessings, God's presence, power, and revelation and authoritative rule!

I like the treasures that come from Christian contact with Jews in Israel, special insights and artefacts... and have been a little disappointed when others say things about fornication happening in the book of Ruth instead of the teaching from this book that abstaining is kind for the future spouse.

I hope to make good willing, insightful Jewish friends. Peace to Israel and all, amen.

 

[franky67]

Hi, I am looking at Israel and the changing relationship between God and Israel since Jacob was alive on Earth. Israel was special to God and chosen to bear God's favour, serve God, sometimes gentiles, and bear the privilege and burden of the revelation of Himself to humanity.

It seemed there was a limiting factor as to what He could do with men and women. Adam could not endure God's fire, and the Exodus Hebrews could not either. Then I recall Abraham and it seems God needed his willingness to sacrifice Isaac to take up the cause of Isaac's children first, then the gentiles. And the crucifixion fulfilled this, for the Jews first, then the gentiles. Including Ethiopians who at a different time were sacrificed in place of Hebrews, 5000 of them, to show the Hebrews the importance of their prominent position in the election of people to receive God's love and serve Him. Israel, the chosen people, the first born, the tithe, the holy and blessed, who knew God.

Israel was given the law as a means to true righteousness, by Moses who knew God and the worship in Heaven intimately. Moses trained in the most advanced civilized methods ever known to the educated up until that time. Moses and God used laws.

Israel tried to live under YHWH's laws and lamb's blood sacrifice and had the presence of God in the pillar of fire for forty years, but retained the ark of the covenant and temple and angels of light. Over time and failures and successes, it seemed an intimate relationship with God through the ark and the anointing and angels, a bit like Moses made for Israel's greats. Greats prophets helped Israel endure exile and recover and they lost the temple and gained synagogues focusing of the Torah.

Gradually God shows Israel, blessing is not only for them as in Isaiah 56, about eunuch's privileges and gentiles enjoined to Israel. There is also Jonah converting Ninevah. And King David was descended from a Moabitess, according to the book of Ruth.

Blessing on multitudes of Hebrews and being first born remains an ongoing special privilege to Israel. They are called to serve and themselves prosper and be content.

Jesus taught that the Pharisees were in error for looking for salvation in reading the laws of Moses the Torah.

Jesus gave us promises of living water, anointing, bread of life, fire and gave us the crucifixion works, healing, overcoming sin, and victory over death for all, Jews and Gentiles. There is nothing more to give than Jesus Christ and His blood. It seems God's favour has become somewhat even between Jew and Gentile.

Abraham's sacrifice is fulfilled, the abundance God wanted is for all now. And there was a time when it was possible, God would finish off all people and leave only Moses' children. But The limiter is broken and will be even more broken when Jesus returns, and Israel will still have it's legacy of blessings and first born privileges and responsibilities and we will be served and serve and have great blessings, God's presence, power, and revelation and authoritative rule!

I like the treasures that come from Christian contact with Jews in Israel, special insights and artefacts... and have been a little disappointed when others say things about fornication happening in the book of Ruth instead of the teaching from this book that abstaining is kind for the future spouse.

I hope to make good willing, insightful Jewish friends. Peace to Israel and all, amen.

We Christians are not just looking at Israel with affection, and good will, we are Israel the domestic "Olive Tree" we have been grafted in, we receive our very life from the rich root of the olive tree. Galatians 3 says "All who are in Christ are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

 

[rakovsky]

We Christians are not just looking at Israel with affection, and good will, we are Israel the domestic "Olive Tree" we have been grafted in, we receive our very life from the rich root of the olive tree. Galatians 3 says "All who are in Christ are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

A lot of people don't get it. They hear State of Israel and think it's the same thing as in 1000 BC, not noticing how ethnic and religious definitions radically changed in some ways over 3000 years.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hi, I am looking at Israel and the changing relationship between God and Israel since Jacob was alive on Earth. Israel was special to God and chosen to bear God's favour, serve God, sometimes gentiles, and bear the privilege and burden of the revelation of Himself to humanity.

It seemed there was a limiting factor as to what He could do with men and women.

I would be careful with this line of thought.

First, the Hebrews WILL ALWAYS be God's chosen people. It is not 'was'. The Lord is coming back for them.

Remember, the Hebrews were under the law. That is very different than us Gentiles under Christ's blood.

Genesis 12:2-3
2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; 3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

Numbers 24:9
9 "He crouches, he lies down as a lion, And as a lion, who dares rouse him? Blessed is everyone who blesses you, And cursed is everyone who curses you."

Show caution on this subject.

 

[rakovsky]

Genesis 12:2-3
2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; 3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

Numbers 24:9
9 "He crouches, he lies down as a lion, And as a lion, who dares rouse him? Blessed is everyone who blesses you, And cursed is everyone who curses you."

Show caution on this subject.

Yes. These verses are about the Christian nations of the world who are blessed in Abraham. Those who bless Abraham get blessed, since the Christian nations are in Abraham.

In Paul's interpretation, this is not a verse about individuals or political entities that explicitly disagree with Christianity.

 

[rakovsky]

First, the Hebrews WILL ALWAYS be God's chosen people. It is not 'was'. The Lord is coming back for them.

All nations are now chosen to be God's people. Peter call's Christian's the people of God.

Remember, the Hebrews were under the law. That is very different than us Gentiles under Christ's blood.

Were=Past tense. Peter had a vision that said it was permissible for Jewish Christians like himself to eat lots of kinds of forbidden foods under the Torah.

 

[rakovsky]

I would be careful with this line of thought.

First, the Hebrews WILL ALWAYS be God's chosen people. It is not 'was'. The Lord is coming back for them.

Remember, the Hebrews were under the law. That is very different than us Gentiles under Christ's blood.

Genesis 12:2-3
2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; 3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

Numbers 24:9
9 "He crouches, he lies down as a lion, And as a lion, who dares rouse him? Blessed is everyone who blesses you, And cursed is everyone who curses you."

Show caution on this subject.

The big moral problem with this line of reasoning is the way that it trumps up and divinizes secular Israeli political claims against the christian community , a community that is in fact descended from early Jewish christians.

 

[ToBeLoved]

All nations are now chosen to be God's people. Peter call's Christian's the people of God.

No. We are adopted into the vine. Hebrews will ALWAYS be God's chosen people. Not just because of Abraham.

 

[ToBeLoved]

ere=Past tense. Peter had a vision that said it was permissible for Jewish Christians like himself to eat lots of kinds of forbidden foods under the Torah.

Right, but most Hebrew people still follow the Law because it is part of their culture.

Do they have to because they can?

 

[ToBeLoved]

The big moral problem with this line of reasoning is the way that it trumps up and divinizes secular Israeli political claims against the christian community , a community that is in fact descended from early Jewish christians.

We are commanded by God not to curse the Hebrews. What does that have to do with politics and a bunch of other stuff?

 

[rakovsky]

We are commanded by God not to curse the Hebrews. What does that have to do with politics and a bunch of other stuff?

Where does it specify that this verse about cursing is about biological or cultural Hebrews?

Paul says in Gal 3-4 that verses about offspring are not, but are instead about Christians.

 

[tatteredsoul]

I think a huge missing point is that Israel the worldly nation =/= Israel God's chosen people necessarily. The Hebrews are scattered all around the world, and most all of them have no idea of who they are. In fact, Mozambique Hebrews for example have been certified as Hebrews on a genetic level - especially since Israel the worldly nation has been rejecting/evicting them from Israel (as well as many other ethnic Hebrews.) They attempted to prove they - by genetics/blood - deserve to be able to exist in Israel to no avail.

Many people who call themselves Jews are not Jews (Israelites from the tribe of Judah) Christ Himself says this. And, let's not forget that despite being the dredges of society, the disciples were also Hebrews/Israelites - indeed they did continue to follow Hebrew laws and tradition.

So, when we hear about "Israel this, Israel that," I don't believe for one moment God is solely talking about the 8000 sq mi piece of land - whether thinking "spiritually" or "literally."

Israel is whomever has been accepted by God as His child. This should answer some serious identity and eschatology questions.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I would be careful with this line of thought.

First, the Hebrews WILL ALWAYS be God's chosen people. It is not 'was'. The Lord is coming back for them.

Remember, the Hebrews were under the law. That is very different than us Gentiles under Christ's blood.

Genesis 12:2-3
2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; 3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

Numbers 24:9
9 "He crouches, he lies down as a lion, And as a lion, who dares rouse him? Blessed is everyone who blesses you, And cursed is everyone who curses you."

Show caution on this subject.

I typed "was" maybe I should have added and "are" also?

 

[Si_monfaith]

True Hebrews are not in Israel but those in whom Jesus has started faith in him as in heb 12:1,2.

 

[geetrue]

St Matthew 3:20 The New King James Version
For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

The only way this can happen is by the blood Jesus shed on the cross at Calvary not by works of putting pieces of paper in the prayer wall in Jerusalem or celebrate Jewish holidays.

 

[Si_monfaith]

He said so becz they did not know about the grace that comes only thru him. They trusted in law.

St Matthew 3:20 The New King James Version
For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

The only way this can happen is by the blood Jesus shed on the cross at Calvary not by works of putting pieces of paper in the prayer wall in Jerusalem or celebrate Jewish holidays.

 

[ToBeLoved]

St Matthew 3:20 The New King James Version
For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

The only way this can happen is by the blood Jesus shed on the cross at Calvary not by works of putting pieces of paper in the prayer wall in Jerusalem or celebrate Jewish holidays.

Considering that in Matthew 23 Jesus called the Pharisee's vipers, hypocrites and said the blood of the prophets would rest on them and that they would crucify the apostles, I'm not worried about being a bit more righteous.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Considering that in Matthew 23 Jesus called the Pharisee's vipers, hypocrites and said the blood of the prophets would rest on them and that they would crucify the apostles, I'm not worried about being a bit more righteous.

Jesus said so in mt23 not becz law could be fulfilled by jews but to show them that they cannot fulfill law & be saved(gal2:16) & thus come to him trusting him as only way, truth& life.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus said so in mt23 not becz law could be fulfilled by jews but to show them that they cannot fulfill law & be saved(gal2:16) & thus come to him trusting him as only way, truth& life.

You may want to re-read Matthew 23 then. Because Jesus used the word 'Woe" over and over and that was a strong word. It called out judgement, like the way someone may use a curse.

9250 woe
An exclamation of judgment upon God’s enemies

So Jesus was casting down judgement upon them. Not unjust or unrighteous judgement, but righteous judgement.

 

[Si_monfaith]

You may want to re-read Matthew 23 then. Because Jesus used the word 'Woe" over and over and that was a strong word. It called out judgement, like the way someone may use a curse.

9250 woe
An exclamation of judgment upon God’s enemies

So Jesus was casting down judgement upon them. Not unjust or unrighteous judgement, but righteous judgement.

It was becz they trusted in law & not the grace which he alone could earn by his blood for mankind.