Gods Love

[Hoghead1]

Sorry for the delay in replying; I've been away.



Agreed.
The reason for bringing it up is because I do not believe God would send his Son to die for people whom he hated - just another indication that God loves everyone, as I believe Scripture teaches.



No, but I can tell you how English has changed. And I can repeat what I read somewhere; that, for the Hebrews, if God chose someone that proved he favoured and therefore loved them, whereas if he didn't choose them it was because he disapproved of and hated them. Which is what is going on in the verse about Jacob and Esau, which others here have confirmed.



I'm defining darkness as Scripture does; the opposite of light.
Light is about being open, honest, free from sin, so that we, and others, can see the right path. Jesus said that we are light for the world. He said that he is THE light for the world but that people did not come to him because they preferred the darkness. Darkness, in Scripture, is associated with sin, negative, destructive emotions and behaviour, ignorance, unbelief, and practices such as witchcraft. Paul urged us to be blameless so that we will shine like stars in the sky in a corrupt and dark generation, Philippians 2:14-15.



My particular example isn't Scriptural - but neither is the teaching that God who created everyone will only selectively love a few of them; that's the point.
God created humans in his image; that is Scriptural, Genesis 1:26-27, and created and saw us in the womb, Psalm 139:13.
God is a perfect, loving heavenly Father; that is Scriptural, Matthew 7:9-11. I believe you can apply these verses in the way that I did just then - no earthly father would create a child, provide for it but refuse to love it and disinherit it. If we heard of anyone behaving in this way I'm pretty sure they would be reported for child cruelty. It's certainly not love, not by any stretch of the imagination. So if we don't expect, and wouldn't tolerate, human fathers who behaved like this, why do some say that this is how God behaves? That God created everyone, but made some people especially and specifically for hell because he had decided to hate them?




And you are ignoring the 3 or 4 people who have explained what this means. Why? Don't you like the explanation?



It seems entirely reasonable to conclude that Judas was not expecting the resurrection. None of the disciples were, that's why they didn't believe the women who told them about the empty tomb, their words seemed "like nonsense."
When Peter, James and John came down from the Mount of transfiguration, they were told not to say anything until Jesus had risen from the dead; they then debated what "rising from the dead" meant. Mark 16:9-20 tells us that Jesus rebuked the disciples for their unbelief - he also told the couple on the road to Emmaus that they were slow to believe the Scriptures that told of his rising from the dead.
It is also logical to conclude that if Judas wouldn't have killed himself if he had known for a fact that Jesus was going to be raised from the dead. Yes, he betrayed Jesus and Jesus died in agony; but if he rose and was alive again, what would be the problem? Remorse for making someone suffer, maybe - but as Jesus was alive again then it wasn't the end and Judas would have had an opportunity to ask for forgiveness, or explain himself and why he did it.

It is reasonable to draw these conclusions from what we read in Scripture.
But because I wasn't there, and could not have seen inside Judas' head even if I had been, I don't know for certain. I can't prove that Judas didn't think "I want an excuse to kill myself. I know, I'll betray Jesus; that will give me the excuse I need and make my death sound almost acceptable."



I don't have any difficulty with God knowing everything.
God knew that Adam would sin, yet still gave him a choice. God knows that some people will end up in hell; he doesn't want them to, doesn't want them to reject and live without him, and that is not why he made them - but he knows they will, and allows them to do so, (even while giving them many opportunities to come to faith.)

What has that got to do with the fact that God doesn't hate?



Agreed. God IS love - and does not hate.



The reason I asked why you believe what God is like is because Scripture says that God is perfect, pure, holy, love, light and many other things as well. God is perfect, God IS love, God created everyone and sent Jesus to die for everyone. If you believe that God can hate his own creation, and sometimes does, then love and hatred both exist in God. So how can he be perfect, or even good? How can he be light if darkness exists in him?
So what does that mean - that he is only love some of the time; that he only loves those he knows will love him; that he has a dual personality; what? And what we believe about God impacts everything else too. Jesus was, and is, God, but how could he be perfect if the Father who sent him was not perfect? And if he wasn't perfect, how could he take our sins upon himself? And if he didn't take our sins upon himself, but was in fact dying for his own, then how can we be saved?

So asking what you believe about God is entirely reasonable in light of the things you have posted.

I beg to disagree with on several points. I believe that God is omniscient. However, and this is an important qualifiers, I also believe that God knows the future for what it is, as it is in its own nature, namely open-ended and indeterminate, the realm of possibilities, not definite matters of fact. I believe we all have free will. That means we have to decide for ourselves. God cannot decide for us, God cannot decide our decisions for us. So the future is open-ended until we decide.
Also, you have spoken of God punishing people. I that that far too often Christians have presented God is a wholly negative light as the Ruling Caesar, Unmoved Mover, and Ruthless Moralist, all rolled into one. I believe that God is loving; and when you love others, you do not seek to coerce them by threats of terrible punishments. So I don't see Hell as an option, not at all.
Also, I hear you saying that God is vengeful and therefore anted someone to pay for pour sins. Consequently, he had Jesus step in, an innocent party, and take the rap. I find that contradictory. If God is truly loving, then god is truly forgiving, and forgiveness, at a minimum, means remission of punishment, not that you take it out on someone else. Furthermore, I don't see any justice served here. I don't think anyone can take the rap for someone else's wrong doings. Fortunately, there are other theories of the atonement, other than this penal-substitutionary one.

 

[keltoi]

And you think He does not?

2 Kings 17:22-23
The people of Israel walked in all the sins which Jerobo′am did; they did not depart from them, 23 until the Lord removed Israel out of his sight, as he had spoken by all his servants the prophets. So Israel was exiled from their own land to Assyria until this day. rsv​

2 Chronicles 7:14
if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land. rsv
​

What happened to Jerusalem, its temple, and the unbelieving Jews after Jesus their Savior ascended into heaven?

Mark 13:2
And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down.” rsv​

God withdrew His protection from Jerusalem, its temple, and the unbelieving Jews. This made it possible for the Romans to destroy all of them which they did. All of this was permitted by God because these Jews did not accept Jesus as their Savior.

Not just because of its leaders though.

 

[keltoi]

Sorry for the delay in replying; I've been away.



Agreed.
The reason for bringing it up is because I do not believe God would send his Son to die for people whom he hated - just another indication that God loves everyone, as I believe Scripture teaches.



No, but I can tell you how English has changed. And I can repeat what I read somewhere; that, for the Hebrews, if God chose someone that proved he favoured and therefore loved them, whereas if he didn't choose them it was because he disapproved of and hated them. Which is what is going on in the verse about Jacob and Esau, which others here have confirmed.



I'm defining darkness as Scripture does; the opposite of light.
Light is about being open, honest, free from sin, so that we, and others, can see the right path. Jesus said that we are light for the world. He said that he is THE light for the world but that people did not come to him because they preferred the darkness. Darkness, in Scripture, is associated with sin, negative, destructive emotions and behaviour, ignorance, unbelief, and practices such as witchcraft. Paul urged us to be blameless so that we will shine like stars in the sky in a corrupt and dark generation, Philippians 2:14-15.



My particular example isn't Scriptural - but neither is the teaching that God who created everyone will only selectively love a few of them; that's the point.
God created humans in his image; that is Scriptural, Genesis 1:26-27, and created and saw us in the womb, Psalm 139:13.
God is a perfect, loving heavenly Father; that is Scriptural, Matthew 7:9-11. I believe you can apply these verses in the way that I did just then - no earthly father would create a child, provide for it but refuse to love it and disinherit it. If we heard of anyone behaving in this way I'm pretty sure they would be reported for child cruelty. It's certainly not love, not by any stretch of the imagination. So if we don't expect, and wouldn't tolerate, human fathers who behaved like this, why do some say that this is how God behaves? That God created everyone, but made some people especially and specifically for hell because he had decided to hate them?




And you are ignoring the 3 or 4 people who have explained what this means. Why? Don't you like the explanation?



It seems entirely reasonable to conclude that Judas was not expecting the resurrection. None of the disciples were, that's why they didn't believe the women who told them about the empty tomb, their words seemed "like nonsense."
When Peter, James and John came down from the Mount of transfiguration, they were told not to say anything until Jesus had risen from the dead; they then debated what "rising from the dead" meant. Mark 16:9-20 tells us that Jesus rebuked the disciples for their unbelief - he also told the couple on the road to Emmaus that they were slow to believe the Scriptures that told of his rising from the dead.
It is also logical to conclude that if Judas wouldn't have killed himself if he had known for a fact that Jesus was going to be raised from the dead. Yes, he betrayed Jesus and Jesus died in agony; but if he rose and was alive again, what would be the problem? Remorse for making someone suffer, maybe - but as Jesus was alive again then it wasn't the end and Judas would have had an opportunity to ask for forgiveness, or explain himself and why he did it.

It is reasonable to draw these conclusions from what we read in Scripture.
But because I wasn't there, and could not have seen inside Judas' head even if I had been, I don't know for certain. I can't prove that Judas didn't think "I want an excuse to kill myself. I know, I'll betray Jesus; that will give me the excuse I need and make my death sound almost acceptable."



I don't have any difficulty with God knowing everything.
God knew that Adam would sin, yet still gave him a choice. God knows that some people will end up in hell; he doesn't want them to, doesn't want them to reject and live without him, and that is not why he made them - but he knows they will, and allows them to do so, (even while giving them many opportunities to come to faith.)

What has that got to do with the fact that God doesn't hate?



Agreed. God IS love - and does not hate.



The reason I asked why you believe what God is like is because Scripture says that God is perfect, pure, holy, love, light and many other things as well. God is perfect, God IS love, God created everyone and sent Jesus to die for everyone. If you believe that God can hate his own creation, and sometimes does, then love and hatred both exist in God. So how can he be perfect, or even good? How can he be light if darkness exists in him?
So what does that mean - that he is only love some of the time; that he only loves those he knows will love him; that he has a dual personality; what? And what we believe about God impacts everything else too. Jesus was, and is, God, but how could he be perfect if the Father who sent him was not perfect? And if he wasn't perfect, how could he take our sins upon himself? And if he didn't take our sins upon himself, but was in fact dying for his own, then how can we be saved?

So asking what you believe about God is entirely reasonable in light of the things you have posted.

I'm not answering every single aspect of this because it basically says I have ignored what other people have said. Well that is not true and I resent the fact that people keep saying it. I am waiting for each of you to not ignore the section of scripture I and the OP quoted. I have shown you all how I have come to my conclusion, using the linguistics of the original language not English as you have, and I have asked you to show me how that section of scripture can in any way shape or form mean that God does not at least unlove, dislike, etc etc etc. When you address that using the tools I showed you which is what theologians use we will be on an even keel again. If you are going to keep saying i ignore what you say then try not to ignore what I say because that is all you have done so far.

 

[Nym]

Yes, I am personally responsible for my own sins. But, God does punish whole nations for its leaders' sins and its people's sins. The people in one nation are punished by people in another nation because God withdraws His blessings and protection from that nation. Also, God no longer constrains nature in some countries who mock Him by their evil laws.

2 Kings 17:22-23
The people of Israel walked in all the sins which Jerobo′am did; they did not depart from them, 23 until the Lord removed Israel out of his sight, as he had spoken by all his servants the prophets. So Israel was exiled from their own land to Assyria until this day. rsv​

So I assume by this you believe God is protecting this nation, even though over 50 million babies have been legally aborted in the last forty years, which is just one kind of sin.

 

[Jan001]

Not just because of its leaders though.

I agree.

​

 

[Jan001]

So I assume by this you believe God is protecting this nation, even though over 50 million babies have been legally aborted in the last forty years, which is just one kind of sin.

I think God is punishing us with nature right now because of our many sins. If we do not repent and change our nation's laws to match God's laws very soon, I think there will be severe economic consequences and much more severe natural disasters. This could easily cause food shortages; if so, this will foment civil unrest and put us all in danger of death.

 

[Nym]

I think God is punishing us with nature right now because of our many sins. If we do not repent and change our nation's laws to match God's laws very soon, I think there will be severe economic consequences and much more severe natural disasters. This could easily cause food shortages; if so, this will foment civil unrest and put us all in danger of death.

In my opinion the selfless overflowing love is the only real answer. A set of exterior laws will never get the job done, even God seemed to have realized this, though he should have known this before he spoke the first word.

 

[Jan001]

In my opinion the selfless overflowing love is the only real answer. A set of exterior laws will never get the job done, even God seemed to have realized this, though he should have known this before he spoke the first word.

God's commandments were given by God to us to help us, not harm us. If we obey His commandments, we will have fellowship with Him. We are commanded by Jesus to imitate His own selfless love/work on earth. We do this by helping/loving our neighbors/friends.

John 15:12-14
This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. rsv

Romans 13:9-10
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. rsv​

 

[Strong in Him]

I think God is punishing us with nature right now because of our many sins.

I think lots of things are a consequence of our own, or our ancestors, actions - like not caring for, and actively polluting, our environment. In other areas too: society promotes the "right" to have sex before marriage, sleep around with people of either gender, abort babies who are an inconvenience, ditch your wife if somebody more attractive comes along; and then people complain about the breakdown in family life, increase of promiscuity, SDTs, and so on.

I remember a number of people saying that AIDS was a punishment from God. I don't believe it; it was a consequence of our own choices. There was a phrase that I heard once - don't know if it is a proverb or somebody once said it; "take what you want and pay for it", says God.
The sad thing is that people live as they choose and then blame God for the way things turn out.

 

[Nym]

God's commandments were given by God to us to help us, not harm us. If we obey His commandments, we will have fellowship with Him. We are commanded by Jesus to imitate His own selfless love/work on earth. We do this by helping/loving our neighbors/friends.

John 15:12-14
This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. rsv

Romans 13:9-10
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. rsv​

I didn't say they were given to harm us, I said only the selfless love is the way, which you quoted verses to uphold.

Jesus said if you only love those who love you what have you done, I would have to assume the answer is nothing.

My point further explored is, what makes his commandments, which according to Jesus was his father’s, and not something that was of himself keepable, any more than the first commandment issued by God in the Bible?

Isn’t it that the truth of this commandment is now found in us, as a Christ in you, a kingdom in you, or laws written on our heart, or a name written in our forehead; which really speaks to how somebody thinks I’m sure, rather than some kind of cattle branding.

I don’t believe Jesus had to try to keep the commandment; he was the truth of it, which he referred to when he said, his father had granted for life to be in him, which really can’t be separated from being the son of God, or being the truth, and way, no more than life can be separated from love, God according to John actually being this, which brings keeping his commandments to whole new level. We go from by thought keeping it to be it, to being it, so we keep it without thought, or without labor.

There’s really nothing new to God, such as a new commandment, so if God is, according to Paul, the one in us who both will’s and does of his own good pleasure, or God all in all, what is the sum of a commandment? And where is it?


John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[Jan001]

I think lots of things are a consequence of our own, or our ancestors, actions - like not caring for, and actively polluting, our environment. In other areas too: society promotes the "right" to have sex before marriage, sleep around with people of either gender, abort babies who are an inconvenience, ditch your wife if somebody more attractive comes along; and then people complain about the breakdown in family life, increase of promiscuity, SDTs, and so on.

I remember a number of people saying that AIDS was a punishment from God. I don't believe it; it was a consequence of our own choices. There was a phrase that I heard once - don't know if it is a proverb or somebody once said it; "take what you want and pay for it", says God.
The sad thing is that people live as they choose and then blame God for the way things turn out.

I agree that most of the things that happen to us are the consequences of human decisions. I also believe that God sometimes intervenes for His own purposes. I think that God used the Roman army to punish the unbelieving Jews in 70 A.D. Luke 19:43-44

Our God is not simply a passive observer of human behavior. God answers prayers.

 

[Strong in Him]

I agree that most of the things that happen to us are the consequences of human decisions. I also believe that God sometimes intervenes for His own purposes. I think that God used the Roman army to punish the unbelieving Jews in 70 A.D. Luke 19:43-44

Our God is not simply a passive observer of human behavior. God answers prayers.

Yes he is.
In the OT God sometimes used other countries to punish Israel and bring them back to himself, and I daresay it could have been the same with the Jews in Jesus' day. But I think the big difference is that Israel are God's chosen, had received his covenant, had once known they were chosen and been in a relationship with him. I'm not convinced that - the UK anyway - has ever been in a close relationship with God and been a truly Christian country. If someone doesn't know God and has never belonged to him, or known that they could belong to him; why would they care about going astray and why would they be punished for going astray from someone they have never known? And if they HAVE known God and that they are his child, God doesn't punish them for their sins, that is why Jesus died. We may still have to face the consequences for our sin, in this case, pollution, a damaged environment, but we're not punished for it.

 

[Jan001]

........

There’s really nothing new to God, such as a new commandment, so if God is, according to Paul, the one in us who both will’s and does of his own good pleasure, or God all in all, what is the sum of a commandment? And where is it?

John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Love is the requirement to inherit eternal life.

Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered right; do this, and you will live.” rsv

Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. rsv​

​

 

[razzelflabben]

how can he when he hates Esau

haven't read the whole thread, just found the discussion, but basically Love and hate are NOT opposites of one another...at least not Biblical Love.

The opposite of Biblical Love, that Love that we are commanded to have is pride not hate, then we go into what scripture means by hate, meaning love less than...basically speaking.

 

[Jan001]

Yes he is.
In the OT God sometimes used other countries to punish Israel and bring them back to himself, and I daresay it could have been the same with the Jews in Jesus' day. But I think the big difference is that Israel are God's chosen, had received his covenant, had once known they were chosen and been in a relationship with him. I'm not convinced that - the UK anyway - has ever been in a close relationship with God and been a truly Christian country. If someone doesn't know God and has never belonged to him, or known that they could belong to him; why would they care about going astray and why would they be punished for going astray from someone they have never known? And if they HAVE known God and that they are his child, God doesn't punish them for their sins, that is why Jesus died. We may still have to face the consequences for our sin, in this case, pollution, a damaged environment, but we're not punished for it.

And, now in NT times, all followers of Jesus are God's chosen people.

1 Peter 2:7-10
To you therefore who believe, he is precious, but for those who do not believe,
“The very stone which the builders rejected
has become the head of the corner,” 8 and
“A stone that will make men stumble,
a rock that will make them fall”;
for they stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. 9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were no people but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy. rsv​

Unrepented sin for both believers and non-believers has eternal consequences.

2 Thessalonians 1:7b-9
.... when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, rsv
​

When Jesus returns to earth, He will inflict vengeance on evildoing believers and also on evildoing unbelievers.

​

 

[Jan001]

haven't read the whole thread, just found the discussion, but basically Love and hate are NOT opposites of one another...at least not Biblical Love.

The opposite of Biblical Love, that Love that we are commanded to have is pride not hate, then we go into what scripture means by hate, meaning love less than...basically speaking.

Sometimes hate means to feel intense or passionate dislike for (someone): the boys hate each other _oxford dictionary

Some people have no love at all for God.

John 15:24
If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. rsv

​

​

 

[Nym]

Love is the requirement to inherit eternal life.

Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered right; do this, and you will live.” rsv

Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. rsv​

​

Love is the truth no less than God is, and (according to John) those who love are born of him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Love is the requirement to inherit eternal life.

Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered right; do this, and you will live.” rsv

Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. rsv​

​

We really can’t (even though we do) separate love or eternal life from God, who is this to us, as an all in all.

 

[razzelflabben]

Sometimes hate means to feel intense or passionate dislike for (someone): the boys hate each other _oxford dictionary

Some people have no love at all for God.

John 15:24
If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. rsv

​

​

That is exactly the point...the world defines love as a strong pleasant emotion, thus the opposite of the world version of love can be hate. However, God's version of Love, that is I Cor. 13 Love is not about emotion at all though it is emotional. In fact the I Cor. 13 love we are told to have is emotion, action, attitude and more. The best definition we can find for this Love is...putting another above self in an act of humility creating a covenant whose intent/purpose is reconciliation/restoration. Now notice that the core, or the heart, center, origin of this Love is humility (obviously God is the source) that makes the opposite of this Love Pride not hate. That is why even God who is said to be Love, can hate and not be in conflict with His characteristic of Love.

 

[Jan001]

That is exactly the point...the world defines love as a strong pleasant emotion, thus the opposite of the world version of love can be hate. However, God's version of Love, that is I Cor. 13 Love is not about emotion at all though it is emotional. In fact the I Cor. 13 love we are told to have is emotion, action, attitude and more. The best definition we can find for this Love is...putting another above self in an act of humility creating a covenant whose intent/purpose is reconciliation/restoration. Now notice that the core, or the heart, center, origin of this Love is humility (obviously God is the source) that makes the opposite of this Love Pride not hate. That is why even God who is said to be Love, can hate and not be in conflict with His characteristic of Love.

It is so much easier to be prideful than to be humble.

 

[Jan001]

Love is the truth no less than God is, and (according to John) those who love are born of him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


We really can’t (even though we do) separate love or eternal life from God, who is this to us, as an all in all.

Correct. True love cannot be separated from God. God is love.