Gods Love

[Nym]

God had to deal with the people of the O.T. differently because they did not have Holy Spirit in them to help them as we do now. They were not born again, they did not have the new nature yet.

The Bible is progressive in the understanding it presents, and I believe it relates to how we perceive ourselves in relationship to God, but in everything God is unchanging.

But words like these “And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.” or “Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.“ (which can be taken a minimum of two ways, like two sides of the same coin; because you can’t take away something not given), which shows that they were still seeing God as one who gives and takes again.

 

[Jan001]

You presume to know the mind of God?

No, I do not know the mind of God.

But, I do know that God knows everything and therefore God knew before the foundation of the world that Esau would sell his inheritance for bread and stew of lentils.

Genesis 25:29-34
Now Jacob cooked a stew; and Esau came in from the field, and he was weary. 30 And Esau said to Jacob, “Please feed me with that same red stew, for I am weary.” Therefore his name was called Edom.
31 But Jacob said, “Sell me your birthright as of this day.”
32 And Esau said, “Look, I am about to die; so what is this birthright to me?”
33 Then Jacob said, “Swear to me as of this day.”
So he swore to him, and sold his birthright to Jacob. 34 And Jacob gave Esau bread and stew of lentils; then he ate and drank, arose, and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright. rsv

​

Just as all of Adam's descendants were punished for Adam's sin, so were all of Esau's descendants punished for Esau's sin.

 

[Jan001]

Yes, Esau despised his birthright...which was the line of the Messiah and was considered holy. God gives freewill and He knows from the beginning just how we'll exercise it. Paul uses this Esau example to prove out "election" for us in Romans.

Paul is speaking of God's election of Jacob to become the father of the Israelites. This type of election has nothing to do with the salvation or election of Esau and his descendants to eternal life.

 

[Jan001]

Thanks for providing yet another reason to discard the Apocrypha. The Bible is not contradictory of itself yet this quote most certainly contradicts what God himself said. Please respond to the quote I gave instead of dancing around it.

You should add what you call the Apocrypha back into your Bible. It is Scripture. The OT and NT Christian Canons were determined by the early Church. Since then, God has given no one the authority to remove any of the Scripture books from the Canons which were determined by the early Church.

Now, about your quote:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+9:13&version=NKJV
Romans 9:13
As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”​

Everything that God created was good. God is love.

Genesis 1:31
Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. rsv

1 John 4:8
He who does not love does not know God; for God is love.rsv

​

Who made Esau if not God? If God made Esau, how can He possibly literally hate him? God is love and He loved the world He made and this love includes all the people in it.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. rsv
​

I do not believe that God literally hated Esau. God loves all people and He wants each and every person to be saved.
1 Timothy 2:3-6, 2 Peter 3:9

Do you really feel a need to compare my family situation with God's feelings for a human being. Last I looked at the Bible Esua was not God's mother or father so the comparison you are trying to make is not in any way shape or form valid. Again please stop dancing around the verses I quoted and respond to them and tell me why you are right and God himself is wrong.

God is not wrong. The writer was trying to teach the Israelites about God's preference for Jacob to become the father of the Israelites instead of Esau. This was a Semitic manner of speaking used to make a specific point and it is not supposed to be understood in the literal sense. Nor are we to take the following verses literally:

Matthew 23:9
And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. rsv

Luke 14:26
“If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. rsv

​

God most certainly did know what Esau's character would be before he was born. Before the foundation of the world, God elected Jacob to become the father of the Israelites instead of Esau because God knew beforehand what each of them would do for their whole lifetime.

 

[Nym]

​

Just as all of Adam's descendants were punished for Adam's sin, so were all of Esau's descendants punished for Esau's sin.

The OT ends with we being responsible for our own.

 

[Jan001]

....
What is it about God hating that is so scary that people are so unwilling to discuss it let alone acknowledge it? Why deny what is written in the Bible?

God literally hates the sins that people commit. God does not literally hate the people He made.

 

[Jan001]

The OT ends with we being responsible for our own.

True, but whole groups of people will have to suffer the consequences for their leaders' actions. If a country is bombed because of its own leaders' meddling in another country's business, the innocent people living in the bombed country will also suffer the consequences from the bombing.

 

[shelley1952]

But words like these “And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.” or “Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.“ (which can be taken a minimum of two ways, like two sides of the same coin; because you can’t take away something not given), which shows that they were still seeing God as one who gives and takes again.

In the O.T. the Spirit would come and go from the saints, empowering them for service but not necessarily remaining with them (see Judges 15:14; 1 Chronicles 12:18; Psalm 51:11;Ezekiel 11:5). Jesus revealed to His disciples the new role the Spirit of Truth would play in their lives: “He lives with you and will be in you” (John 14:17). The apostle Paul wrote, “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you are bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body” (1 Corinthians 6:19–20).

 

[keltoi]

True, but whole groups of people will have to suffer the consequences for their leaders' actions. If a country is bombed because of its own leaders' meddling in another country's business, the innocent people living in the bombed country will also suffer the consequences from the bombing.

So you think God is doing this? wow.

 

[Nym]

In the O.T. the Spirit would come and go from the saints, empowering them for service but not necessarily remaining with them (see Judges 15:14; 1 Chronicles 12:18; Psalm 51:11;Ezekiel 11:5). Jesus revealed to His disciples the new role the Spirit of Truth would play in their lives: “He lives with you and will be in you” (John 14:17). The apostle Paul wrote, “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you are bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body” (1 Corinthians 6:19–20).

You prove my point of "The Bible is progressive in the understanding it presents, and I believe it relates to how we perceive ourselves in relationship to God, (except) but in everything God is unchanging." in post #121

Can anything be new to God? (in the context of one who declares the end from the beginning, which is as close as you come to having always been this way), To us maybe, but to God?

David said (in so many words) that there is no place He/God is not, another place says there is nothing hid from his sight, yet with Abraham God is purported to have said, "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." These words either show God's limitations, or they are Abraham's current perception of God, not God. You find the same thing with Noah, when God is disappointed with the outcome of where he created man (on the earth), as if he did not know the end from the beginning (which he declares) of his own works.

In the context of this thread, the word's hate and love, or even what appears to be not in the context of this thread, such as the word's city, tree, or river, or a mountain change (though they remain the same word) as to what they mean in relationship to us, as being the words God fills with what it means to him, which is the whole point of having the holy spirit being the one in you that leads you into all things (or John's you need not that any man teach you, while Paul's five seem contrary to what both Jesus and John had said); as Jesus said, life eternal is attached to knowing, or in the OT my people fail, or perish for the lack of knowledge, or Hosea's words, then shall we know if we follow on to know (which now should bring into question what is in the words "Thou shalt not eat" and how deep do they go).

 

[bling]

You are accusing me of using a dictionary definition of the word hate yet you do not at any stage refer to the original language while I have done. Are you a bit stuck in the 1960s?

Not true and the fact peopel keep throwing this verse up means they have a hangup regarding the word hate. Read post 108 where I actually go into that verse and show how it is incorrectly translated. Now go back and follow my example in post 108 and do the same with Malachi, tell me what the nicest for of the Hebrew word is, it could be unloved, detested, hate, all of which show Esau was not loved and this disagrees with, and makes many uncomfortable because of this, that God loves everyone.

For your own education start looking at the original languages, it is an eye opener.

You are saying “Luke 14: 26” is “incorrectly translated”, which means every translation of this verse out there is “incorrectly translated” with the exception of two (one using abandon and other using disregard) , since that is the way it is translating it. We are using the Bible to define the word in the context of Luke 14: 26, Deity is not saying “detest you family” (hate like hate is defined in the dictionary), but love them less than you Love Jesus.

The same Greek word “μισέω” is used in both Romans 9: 13 and Luke 14:26 with Deity using the word. We fully agree that the word “μισέω” used in Luke 14:26 by deity means “love less or esteem less” (according to your post 108), so the question is why you would not say the same Biblical definition obviously dictated by the context in Luke 14:26 when deity is using the word “μισέω”, does not mean the same thing in Ro. 9:13 which would mean “love less or esteem less”. This would mean God still could Love Esau, but Love Esau less than He Loves Jacob.

 

[Nym]

Does God knit some in the womb, and not others?

If God loves in a manner that's partial, his work is partial.

Whatever measure you meet something with is what is measured back to you.

 

[keltoi]

You are saying “Luke 14: 26” is “incorrectly translated”, which means every translation of this verse out there is “incorrectly translated” with the exception of two (one using abandon and other using disregard) , since that is the way it is translating it. We are using the Bible to define the word in the context of Luke 14: 26, Deity is not saying “detest you family” (hate like hate is defined in the dictionary), but love them less than you Love Jesus.

The same Greek word “μισέω” is used in both Romans 9: 13 and Luke 14:26 with Deity using the word. We fully agree that the word “μισέω” used in Luke 14:26 by deity means “love less or esteem less” (according to your post 108), so the question is why you would not say the same Biblical definition obviously dictated by the context in Luke 14:26 when deity is using the word “μισέω”, does not mean the same thing in Ro. 9:13 which would mean “love less or esteem less”. This would mean God still could Love Esau, but Love Esau less than He Loves Jacob.

Because the word originally used in the OT was Hebrew not Koine Greek.

 

[bling]

Because the word originally used in the OT was Hebrew not Koine Greek.

The same Hebrew word for “hate” שָׂנֵא (sane'), used in Mal. 1:3“but I have hated Esau; I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”

Is used in Gen. 29:31 and most of the time translated “hate”, but Jacob did not “despise” Leah and would have many children by her, but did “Love her less”.

Genesis 29:31 (RSV) 31 When the Lord saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb; but Rachel was barren.

The NIV does a better job here:

NIV Gen. 29:31 When the Lord saw that Leah was not loved, he enabled her to conceive, but Rachel remained childless.

This is Deity using the word “hate”.

 

[keltoi]

The same Hebrew word for “hate” שָׂנֵא (sane'), used in Mal. 1:3“but I have hated Esau; I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”

Is used in Gen. 29:31 and most of the time translated “hate”, but Jacob did not “despise” Leah and would have many children by her, but did “Love her less”.

Genesis 29:31 (RSV) 31 When the Lord saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb; but Rachel was barren.

The NIV does a better job here:

NIV Gen. 29:31 When the Lord saw that Leah was not loved, he enabled her to conceive, but Rachel remained childless.

This is Deity using the word “hate”.

So when something "is not loved" does that mean what does not love it "loves everything". If God "does not love" or someone is "unloved" then God does not "love everyone" does he? Thanks for showing me to be correct I do appreciate it.

 

[bling]

So when something "is not loved" does that mean what does not love it "loves everything". If God "does not love" or someone is "unloved" then God does not "love everyone" does he? Thanks for showing me to be correct I do appreciate it.

Jacob still "Loved" Leah with a husband for wife type love, but did not love her like he did Rachel, whom he might want to be with more.

 

[Jan001]

The OT ends with we being responsible for our own.

Yes, I am personally responsible for my own sins. But, God does punish whole nations for its leaders' sins and its people's sins. The people in one nation are punished by people in another nation because God withdraws His blessings and protection from that nation. Also, God no longer constrains nature in some countries who mock Him by their evil laws.

2 Kings 17:22-23
The people of Israel walked in all the sins which Jerobo′am did; they did not depart from them, 23 until the Lord removed Israel out of his sight, as he had spoken by all his servants the prophets. So Israel was exiled from their own land to Assyria until this day. rsv​

 

[Jan001]

So you think God is doing this? wow.

And you think He does not?

2 Kings 17:22-23
The people of Israel walked in all the sins which Jerobo′am did; they did not depart from them, 23 until the Lord removed Israel out of his sight, as he had spoken by all his servants the prophets. So Israel was exiled from their own land to Assyria until this day. rsv​

2 Chronicles 7:14
if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land. rsv
​

What happened to Jerusalem, its temple, and the unbelieving Jews after Jesus their Savior ascended into heaven?

Mark 13:2
And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down.” rsv​

God withdrew His protection from Jerusalem, its temple, and the unbelieving Jews. This made it possible for the Romans to destroy all of them which they did. All of this was permitted by God because these Jews did not accept Jesus as their Savior.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Also consider that what we do affects one another. I suspect we all - AND God - are more connected than we realize.

One person's hate or sin has an effect on others, which then spreads to even more people, in an exponential increase. Though sometimes the intensity of the effect may decrease (or increase) so just because the lives touched increases, it does not necessarily mean greater effect. But it is possible. I think this is true for all sin.

 

[Strong in Him]

Sorry for the delay in replying; I've been away.

Let's get one thing straight so I don't have to keep going over this again and again. Christ died as a ransom for the sins of humanity, if he didn't no one would be able to get to Heaven because, as the Bible says, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". So that's all a given and we all agree with that, or at least I hope we all agree with that (yes that includes Mary mother of Jesus as well).

Agreed.
The reason for bringing it up is because I do not believe God would send his Son to die for people whom he hated - just another indication that God loves everyone, as I believe Scripture teaches.

Are you a linguist? Can you show me how Biblical Hebrew has changed over time? so much so that the word that means hate now means love and light?

No, but I can tell you how English has changed. And I can repeat what I read somewhere; that, for the Hebrews, if God chose someone that proved he favoured and therefore loved them, whereas if he didn't choose them it was because he disapproved of and hated them. Which is what is going on in the verse about Jacob and Esau, which others here have confirmed.

Define darkness as you would with regards to the nature of a being.

I'm defining darkness as Scripture does; the opposite of light.
Light is about being open, honest, free from sin, so that we, and others, can see the right path. Jesus said that we are light for the world. He said that he is THE light for the world but that people did not come to him because they preferred the darkness. Darkness, in Scripture, is associated with sin, negative, destructive emotions and behaviour, ignorance, unbelief, and practices such as witchcraft. Paul urged us to be blameless so that we will shine like stars in the sky in a corrupt and dark generation, Philippians 2:14-15.

Please tell me how this is scriptural

My particular example isn't Scriptural - but neither is the teaching that God who created everyone will only selectively love a few of them; that's the point.
God created humans in his image; that is Scriptural, Genesis 1:26-27, and created and saw us in the womb, Psalm 139:13.
God is a perfect, loving heavenly Father; that is Scriptural, Matthew 7:9-11. I believe you can apply these verses in the way that I did just then - no earthly father would create a child, provide for it but refuse to love it and disinherit it. If we heard of anyone behaving in this way I'm pretty sure they would be reported for child cruelty. It's certainly not love, not by any stretch of the imagination. So if we don't expect, and wouldn't tolerate, human fathers who behaved like this, why do some say that this is how God behaves? That God created everyone, but made some people especially and specifically for hell because he had decided to hate them?

Not relevant. The problem here is you are ignoring the section in Malachi that says "Esau I hated".

And you are ignoring the 3 or 4 people who have explained what this means. Why? Don't you like the explanation?

Then why post as though you did?

It seems entirely reasonable to conclude that Judas was not expecting the resurrection. None of the disciples were, that's why they didn't believe the women who told them about the empty tomb, their words seemed "like nonsense."
When Peter, James and John came down from the Mount of transfiguration, they were told not to say anything until Jesus had risen from the dead; they then debated what "rising from the dead" meant. Mark 16:9-20 tells us that Jesus rebuked the disciples for their unbelief - he also told the couple on the road to Emmaus that they were slow to believe the Scriptures that told of his rising from the dead.
It is also logical to conclude that if Judas wouldn't have killed himself if he had known for a fact that Jesus was going to be raised from the dead. Yes, he betrayed Jesus and Jesus died in agony; but if he rose and was alive again, what would be the problem? Remorse for making someone suffer, maybe - but as Jesus was alive again then it wasn't the end and Judas would have had an opportunity to ask for forgiveness, or explain himself and why he did it.

It is reasonable to draw these conclusions from what we read in Scripture.
But because I wasn't there, and could not have seen inside Judas' head even if I had been, I don't know for certain. I can't prove that Judas didn't think "I want an excuse to kill myself. I know, I'll betray Jesus; that will give me the excuse I need and make my death sound almost acceptable."

It seems you have difficulty with God knowing everything as well. God knew what Judas would do and he let him do it.

I don't have any difficulty with God knowing everything.
God knew that Adam would sin, yet still gave him a choice. God knows that some people will end up in hell; he doesn't want them to, doesn't want them to reject and live without him, and that is not why he made them - but he knows they will, and allows them to do so, (even while giving them many opportunities to come to faith.)

What has that got to do with the fact that God doesn't hate?

I have not ignored them, I know God's love and I know it knows no bounds.

Agreed. God IS love - and does not hate.

So I can ask people to tell me what they think the relevant verses should say and no one says it but you now expect me to tell you what I believe God is like. Ok lets go and see how uncomfortable this makes you all.

God is all powerful, all knowing and everywhere. His ways and knowledge are above mine and everyone else's (this is scriptural) so much so that people feel uncomfortable when confronted with them. I believe God has the ability, as shown in Malachi, to hate. I believe God is just in this hate as humanity has rejected his perfect ways. I believe God is love and has given humanity the perfect gift but many will reject it and will be sent to eternal eternal oblivion. God knows everything, and is present everywhere in his creation.

Do you want me to go into the trinity and what each individual of the trinity does or is what I have posted above enough for you?

The reason I asked why you believe what God is like is because Scripture says that God is perfect, pure, holy, love, light and many other things as well. God is perfect, God IS love, God created everyone and sent Jesus to die for everyone. If you believe that God can hate his own creation, and sometimes does, then love and hatred both exist in God. So how can he be perfect, or even good? How can he be light if darkness exists in him?
So what does that mean - that he is only love some of the time; that he only loves those he knows will love him; that he has a dual personality; what? And what we believe about God impacts everything else too. Jesus was, and is, God, but how could he be perfect if the Father who sent him was not perfect? And if he wasn't perfect, how could he take our sins upon himself? And if he didn't take our sins upon himself, but was in fact dying for his own, then how can we be saved?

So asking what you believe about God is entirely reasonable in light of the things you have posted.