Gods Love

[keltoi]

I haven't read every word of every post, but I have seen others trying to give you that information, and it was ignored.

No person has addressed the scripture I quoted, in context btw, so I have not ignored anything that is relevant to what the OP and I have posted. You have an image in your mind of a "god" who is incapable of having feelings that oppose your idealistic image. The section of scripture I quoted refutes that image. You and others have been asked repeatedly to focus on the section if scripture that was quoted but all that keeps getting posted is policially correct, lets not scare the children, images and feelings that indicate you and others have not read the entire Bible. You have effectively ignored a section of God's Word simply because you cannot imagine something as you yourself point you in your post before this one I am replying to. The real problem is you don't have to imagine it and you really can't ignore it because it is a question that will keep popping up until the day Christ returns. Ignoring what is written in front of you will not make it go away so it is best to confront it head on and discuss it.

Now let me ask you and others again, is God wrong for using the word hate? You either don't believe it or you think the word hate doesn't mean hate in which case it was a poor choice of words for God to use. You either believe what is written in the Bible as God's Word, or you don't. What 1 of these is it? Simple question that only requires a simple answer. If you don't believe it , which you have pretty much said as much, please translate that section of scripture in context from the original Hebrew and tell us what God really meant to say.

 

[Strong in Him]

That's correct. Those that God loves will be with him for eternity.

God loves everyone - those who accept his love, acknowledge Jesus and what he did for them and receive God's love and free gift of salvation, will be with him for eternity.
If someone continually rejects God, his Son and this free gift of life, if they refuse to repent of their sins and want nothing to do with God then they will spend eternity without God. NOT because God hated them, but because he loves them too much to force himself on to someone who doesn't want to know.

You are taking this from a human perspective. Do you really think God would use the word hate if he didn't mean hate?

1) How do you know that GOD used the word hate and it was not just the best word that the translators could find?
2) The meaning of words changes all the time.
3) Whatever word has been used on any occasion cannot contradict what is revealed about the nature of God. God is LOVE, he is also light and there is NO darkness in him at all.

A hypothetical devised using human reasoning, it is not applicable.

It's not hypothetical, it's Scriptural:

"Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" Matthew 7:9-11.

And it is relevant because this is what God is like - a perfect, loving heavenly Father who is able to give good things to those who ask him.

Why not? you seem to be saying God loves everybody even though God himself said he doesn't so you seem to know God better than he does himself.

Scripture says that God is love.
The OT tells us that God often told his children he would punish them - and often did because he wanted to correct them and bring them back to himself - yet when people repented he forgave and restored them. When the time of punishment, or discipline, was over, God blessed and restored. The book of Hosea is a great example of this. God was a faithful husband; Israel was behaving like a prostitute instead of a faithful wife. God said he would punish them, and no doubt did, yet the next minute he is saying that he could not let them go.

You say no doubt he was certain jesus was dead and was going to stay dead. How do you know that?

Ok, you're right, I don't KNOW.
But if he had known for certain that Jesus would be raised from the dead, I think it quite likely that he would have stayed around and asked for forgiveness. He had been with Jesus for 3 years; he had seen miracles, seen Jesus walking on water, heard him forgive the woman who had been caught in the act of adultery, and heard him tell Peter that he should forgive people as much as 70x7. He had also been part of the group that was sent out to heal and drive out demons. He knew the power of God; surely he must have realised that Jesus would be able to forgive him?

Also you seem to be ignoring Christ's own words when he said "better for him not to have been born" Matthew 26:20-25.

From Judas' point of view, it may have been better if he hadn't been born. He died at his own hand, knowing that he had betrayed an innocent man,
" ‘I have sinned,’ he said, ‘for I have betrayed innocent blood.’, " Matthew 27:4.
None of the disciples believed in, or expected, the resurrection; that is why they didn't believe the women who told them, and Peter and John had to go to the tomb to see for themselves. Judas just didn't stay around long enough to find out that it was true and to ask for forgiveness.

Correct but you appear to be saying God cannot judge in the way he sees fit. God said Jacob I loved but Esua I hated and he went on to tell us what he did to the Edomites to show his hate yet you believe this isn't true.

I'm saying, and others have said, that God's treatment of Esau was not hatred, as in, the opposite of love, but was about choosing Jacob. I believe it was probably the same for the Edomites. They were not God's people; God had not chosen them. To the Jews, THEY alone were loved and favoured by God, no one else. God had chosen them, so he loved them, and therefore didn't love anyone he had not chosen. Same as with Jacob and Esau.
But you don't seem to want to accept that.

But you believe it is up to you to deny what the Bible says?

Aren't you doing the same, when you ignore all the Scriptures that have been posted about God's love, or that he is light with NO darkness in him, or that he sent Jesus to die for sinners - and we are all sinners?

So what do you believe that God is like then?

 

[Strong in Him]

You are talking about human feelings using human definitions. Humans are not God so lets take this back to what God says in the Bible not what the English dictionary defines something as.

Again a human aspect, do you deny what Is written in the Bible? Do you deny God said Jacob I love but Esua I hated? DO you deny that God then described how he manifested that hate?

With regards to the scripture I quoted this makes very little sense. We are not talking about the ability of humans to love we are talking about what is written in the Bible and it said "Jacob I loved but Esua I hated" and then goes on to describe how God hated Esau".

I don't remember saying he was.

So yes you are denying what is written in the Bible.

I didn't say any of the things that you have quoted and attributed to me.

 

[keltoi]

I didn't say any of the things that you have quoted and attributed to me.

Sorry about that. It has happened before in different threads, I initially thought it was my copy and paste but I'm not sure what happened now. I will go back and try to fix it.

 

[Strong in Him]

Sorry about that. It has happened before in different threads, I initially thought it was my copy and paste but I'm not sure what happened now. I will go back and try to fix it.

Don't worry - not a problem.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Now let me ask you and others again, is God wrong for using the word hate? You either don't believe it or you think the word hate doesn't mean hate in which case it was a poor choice of words for God to use.

This question would be more relevant if God had dictated the English translation word for word to a stenographer. I'm not sure if you are serious or being deliberate in trying to make a point. But as it is, I find the question ridiculous.

And others have addressed the use of the word "hate" in this context, as well as bringing up Jesus' words that one must "hate" his own family. Do you think Jesus literally meant we are to hate our families, or was it a poor choice of words that The Lord made?

 

[keltoi]

God loves everyone - those who accept his love, acknowledge Jesus and what he did for them and receive God's love and free gift of salvation, will be with him for eternity. If someone continually rejects God, his Son and this free gift of life, if they refuse to repent of their sins and want nothing to do with God then they will spend eternity without God. NOT because God hated them, but because he loves them too much to force himself on to someone who doesn't want to know.

Let's get one thing straight so I don't have to keep going over this again and again. Christ died as a ransom for the sins of humanity, if he didn't no one would be able to get to Heaven because, as the Bible says, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". So that's all a given and we all agree with that, or at least I hope we all agree with that (yes that includes Mary mother of Jesus as well). If we don;t agree with that then there is another problem for another thread. Those who accept Christ as Lord and Saviour will get to Heaven, those who don't wont. Now we have Theology 101 out of the way lets get into what is written in the Bible.

1) How do you know that GOD used the word hate and it was not just the best word that the translators could find?

Go to this page click on the word hate in verse 3 and you'll get this page. Read the different words that can be used and tell me what it can mean at the very least.

2) The meaning of words changes all the time.

Are you a linguist? Can you show me how Biblical Hebrew has changed over time? so much so that the word that means hate now means love and light?

3) Whatever word has been used on any occasion cannot contradict what is revealed about the nature of God. God is LOVE, he is also light and there is NO darkness in him at all.

Define darkness as you would with regards to the nature of a being.

It's not hypothetical, it's Scriptural:

Please tell me how this is scriptural

If you heard a story of a man who said to his pregnant wife, "I helped you create this new life and you may have the child, but I'm not going to get involved, love it or let it inherit anything from me. I'll stay married to you, I want you to have more children and I will love some, or all, of them; but not this one"; would you report him for child cruelty or nominate him for father of the year?

Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" Matthew 7:9-11.

And it is relevant because this is what God is like - a perfect, loving heavenly Father who is able to give good things to those who ask him.

Lovely verses, in absolutely no context whatsoever, that shows the love of God to those who ask, what does this have to do with Esau who we all acknowledge sold his birthright for some tucker?

Scripture says that God is love.

And scripture says God hated Esau but you and others are ignoring that section of Malachi because you cannot comprehend it.

The OT tells us that God often told his children he would punish them - and often did because he wanted to correct them and bring them back to himself - yet when people repented he forgave and restored them. When the time of punishment, or discipline, was over, God blessed and restored. The book of Hosea is a great example of this. God was a faithful husband; Israel was behaving like a prostitute instead of a faithful wife. God said he would punish them, and no doubt did, yet the next minute he is saying that he could not let them go.

Not relevant. The problem here is you are ignoring the section in Malachi that says "Esau I hated".

Ok, you're right, I don't KNOW.

Then why post as though you did?

But if he had known for certain that Jesus would be raised from the dead, I think it quite likely that he would have stayed around and asked for forgiveness. He had been with Jesus for 3 years; he had seen miracles, seen Jesus walking on water, heard him forgive the woman who had been caught in the act of adultery, and heard him tell Peter that he should forgive people as much as 70x7. He had also been part of the group that was sent out to heal and drive out demons. He knew the power of God; surely he must have realised that Jesus would be able to forgive him?

Yet Judas hung himself and his gut burst open.

From Judas' point of view, it may have been better if he hadn't been born. He died at his own hand, knowing that he had betrayed an innocent man,
" ‘I have sinned,’ he said, ‘for I have betrayed innocent blood.’, " Matthew 27:4.
None of the disciples believed in, or expected, the resurrection; that is why they didn't believe the women who told them, and Peter and John had to go to the tomb to see for themselves. Judas just didn't stay around long enough to find out that it was true and to ask for forgiveness.

It seems you have difficulty with God knowing everything as well. God knew what Judas would do and he let him do it.

I'm saying, and others have said, that God's treatment of Esau was not hatred, as in, the opposite of love, but was about choosing Jacob. I believe it was probably the same for the Edomites. They were not God's people; God had not chosen them. To the Jews, THEY alone were loved and favoured by God, no one else. God had chosen them, so he loved them, and therefore didn't love anyone he had not chosen. Same as with Jacob and Esau.
But you don't seem to want to accept that.

Until someone provides a translation of the relevant section of scripture that does not indicate God hated Esau or at least did not unlove or intensely dislike Esau I will take the Word of God as it is present to me by God. So, again, I say translate the relevant section and tell me what you think God really intended to say.

Aren't you doing the same, when you ignore all the Scriptures that have been posted about God's love, or that he is light with NO darkness in him, or that he sent Jesus to die for sinners - and we are all sinners?

I have not ignored them, I know God's love and I know it knows no bounds. The Bible is as clear with God's love as it is about God's hate.

So what do you believe that God is like then?

So I can ask people to tell me what they think the relevant verses should say and no one says it but you now expect me to tell you what I believe God is like. Ok lets go and see how uncomfortable this makes you all.

God is all powerful, all knowing and everywhere. His ways and knowledge are above mine and everyone else's (this is scriptural) so much so that people feel uncomfortable when confronted with them. I believe God has the ability, as shown in Malachi, to hate. I believe God is just in this hate as humanity has rejected his perfect ways. I believe God is love and has given humanity the perfect gift but many will reject it and will be sent to eternal eternal oblivion. God knows everything, and is present everywhere in his creation.

Do you want me to go into the trinity and what each individual of the trinity does or is what I have posted above enough for you?

 

[keltoi]

This question would be more relevant if God had dictated the English translation word for word to a stenographer.

If you think God's word is limited because it wasn't written in English originally then you are limiting God's ability to spread his word and its full meaning.

I'm not sure if you are serious or being deliberate in trying to make a point.

If you can't work this out then you have a major issue understanding things, and I mean that nicely.

But as it is, I find the question ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? do you believe what is written or do you reject it? God either meant what he said or he didn't, you and others have posted time and time again that God could not possibly hate yet there it is in Malachi that God hated Esau.

And others have addressed the use of the word "hate" in this context, as well as bringing up Jesus' words that one must "hate" his own family. Do you think Jesus literally meant we are to hate our families, or was it a poor choice of words that The Lord made?

Others have not addressed the use of this word in this context. Others have squirmed about and given some politically correct reason as to why God cannot hate even though the word is used.

Now Luke 14:26 (a single verse out of context, why is it when I present a section of scripture I am told its out of context but when others present 1 verse it's ok and I must reply to it to keep you all happy? Do you not think that is hyporitical? anwyay don't bother the double standards here are beyond anything I have ever witnessed but I will play this game with you all) says in ten NSAB
"26“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters — yes, even his own life — he cannot be My disciple.".
Now who here hates their own life? Be honest, if you say you do then I wonder why you are not an emotional wreck. If you say you don't you are saying you are not a disciple of Christ therefore you are not a Christian. Yes shocking isn't it? Now lets look at the original language, and those of you who are all love and light will like this even though you don't like it with Malachi (which is rather hypocritical but that's what happens when people can't take the word of God as it is present in the original languages because it is to harsh for them). Read this link now click on the down box where it say's version and select Strong's NASB. It will open up this page. Now go down to verse 26 and click on the word hate, it will take you to this page where you will see the word used can mean various things including, but not limited to, hate. So lets look at this what words can be used instead of hate oh there is "love less" and "less esteemed". This means the sentence could read "If anyone comes to me and does not LOVE LESS his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters - yes even his own life - he cannot be my disciple". Is Christ actually asking us to hate others or is he asking us to love them less than we love him? I say the latter.

Now we have that out of the way, could you please now answer my request. I have done everything you have asked yet you have all dodged what I have asked.

 

[Nym]

Esau isn't as bad as they make him out to be. Jacob became a devil to him, to obtain what wasn't his. He is both a thief and a deceiver, which follows the pattern of events seen in Eden; different scenario same end of events, which starts again with Cain and Abel.

I believe the answer is in the why, and how Esau is part of this answer in us.

 

[bling]

You are talking about human feelings using human definitions. Humans are not God so lets take this back to what God says in the Bible not what the English dictionary defines something as.

Again a human aspect, do you deny what Is written in the Bible? Do you deny God said Jacob I love but Esua I hated? DO you deny that God then described how he manifested that hate?

With regards to the scripture I quoted this makes very little sense. We are not talking about the ability of humans to love we are talking about what is written in the Bible and it said "Jacob I loved but Esua I hated" and then goes on to describe how God hated Esau".

I don't remember saying he was.

So yes you are denying what is written in the Bible.

I am the one using the Bible to define “Hate” especially when used by Deity. You seem to be using the dictionary definition of “hate” for Deity’s use of the word.

Jesus tells us specifically to “hate” our family (Luke 14: 26), so in deity’s use of the word “hate”, what is your definition of the word?

 

[shelley1952]

even though God has decided who will repent.

Wow, this simple statement has messed with my mind. Doesnt the Bible liken God as a loving Father ? Yet you are saying He decided who will repent ? Isnt that like saying He is deciding who goes to hell ? If so then its ok for a person to kill their baby if they decide they dont like the baby ? Wow now you are scaring me, no joke. So I can pray my heart out for someones salvation but if God has already decided they wont repent then my prayers are all for nothing ? That sure does not help my faith in the Lord. Why pray at all ?

 

[Nym]

Wow, this simple statement has messed with my mind. Doesnt the Bible liken God as a loving Father ? Yet you are saying He decided who will repent ? Isnt that like saying He is deciding who goes to hell ? If so then its ok for a person to kill their baby if they decide they dont like the baby ? Wow now you are scaring me, no joke. So I can pray my heart out for someones salvation but if God has already decided they wont repent then my prayers are all for nothing ? That sure does not help my faith in the Lord. Why pray at all ?

But that's not the only conclusion.

 

[Nym]

Hate is just a word, that can take on the meaning of a dislike to never having been at all; which spans the distance between man and God; love is similar.

 

[Hoghead1]

If you think God's word is limited because it wasn't written in English originally then you are limiting God's ability to spread his word and its full meaning.
If you can't work this out then you have a major issue understanding things, and I mean that nicely.
Why is it ridiculous? do you believe what is written or do you reject it? God either meant what he said or he didn't, you and others have posted time and time again that God could not possibly hate yet there it is in Malachi that God hated Esau.

Others have not addressed the use of this word in this context. Others have squirmed about and given some politically correct reason as to why God cannot hate even though the word is used.

Now Luke 14:26 (a single verse out of context, why is it when I present a section of scripture I am told its out of context but when others present 1 verse it's ok and I must reply to it to keep you all happy? Do you not think that is hyporitical? anwyay don't bother the double standards here are beyond anything I have ever witnessed but I will play this game with you all) says in ten NSAB
"26“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters — yes, even his own life — he cannot be My disciple.".
Now who here hates their own life? Be honest, if you say you do then I wonder why you are not an emotional wreck. If you say you don't you are saying you are not a disciple of Christ therefore you are not a Christian. Yes shocking isn't it? Now lets look at the original language, and those of you who are all love and light will like this even though you don't like it with Malachi (which is rather hypocritical but that's what happens when people can't take the word of God as it is present in the original languages because it is to harsh for them). Read this link now click on the down box where it say's version and select Strong's NASB. It will open up this page. Now go down to verse 26 and click on the word hate, it will take you to this page where you will see the word used can mean various things including, but not limited to, hate. So lets look at this what words can be used instead of hate oh there is "love less" and "less esteemed". This means the sentence could read "If anyone comes to me and does not LOVE LESS his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters - yes even his own life - he cannot be my disciple". Is Christ actually asking us to hate others or is he asking us to love them less than we love him? I say the latter.

Now we have that out of the way, could you please now answer my request. I have done everything you have asked yet you have all dodged what I have asked.

I view God as a truly loving God. When you truly love persons, you do not seek to coerce them by threats of terrible punishments. Yes, the Bible, especially the OT, does present a punitive, juridical picture of God, but I believe that is a weak and failed revelation. The Bible also says that God is loving and that presents a wholly different image of God.

 

[shelley1952]

God had to deal with the people of the O.T. differently because they did not have Holy Spirit in them to help them as we do now. They were not born again, they did not have the new nature yet.

 

[keltoi]

I am the one using the Bible to define “Hate” especially when used by Deity. You seem to be using the dictionary definition of “hate” for Deity’s use of the word

You are accusing me of using a dictionary definition of the word hate yet you do not at any stage refer to the original language while I have done. Are you a bit stuck in the 1960s?

Jesus tells us specifically to “hate” our family (Luke 14: 26), so in deity’s use of the word “hate”, what is your definition of the word?

Not true and the fact peopel keep throwing this verse up means they have a hangup regarding the word hate. Read post 108 where I actually go into that verse and show how it is incorrectly translated. Now go back and follow my example in post 108 and do the same with Malachi, tell me what the nicest for of the Hebrew word is, it could be unloved, detested, hate, all of which show Esau was not loved and this disagrees with, and makes many uncomfortable because of this, that God loves everyone.

For your own education start looking at the original languages, it is an eye opener.

 

[keltoi]

I view God as a truly loving God. When you truly love persons, you do not seek to coerce them by threats of terrible punishments. Yes, the Bible, especially the OT, does present a punitive, juridical picture of God, but I believe that is a weak and failed revelation. The Bible also says that God is loving and that presents a wholly different image of God.

The Bible presents a complete image of God, people who ignore parts of the Bible don't want to see the complete image. Why? because it is uncomfortable for them.

 

[keltoi]

Wow, this simple statement has messed with my mind. Doesnt the Bible liken God as a loving Father ? Yet you are saying He decided who will repent ? Isnt that like saying He is deciding who goes to hell ? If so then its ok for a person to kill their baby if they decide they dont like the baby ? Wow now you are scaring me, no joke. So I can pray my heart out for someones salvation but if God has already decided they wont repent then my prayers are all for nothing ? That sure does not help my faith in the Lord. Why pray at all ?

Don't get worked up about it. God has given us freewill, remember Adam and Eve used it to disobey God in the Garden of Eden. God leads us through the spirit to Christ but we still have to accept Christ. If we accept him we are saved, if we don't we are not saved. The thing that gets people with this is the idea of predestination where God has made all the decisions before he created everything. This is a bit of a stretch of reality. What is true is God already knows what our decisions will be, it doesn't mean he has forced us to make those decisions.

 

[hedrick]

even though God has decided who will repent.

Wow, this simple statement has messed with my mind. Doesnt the Bible liken God as a loving Father ? Yet you are saying He decided who will repent ? Isnt that like saying He is deciding who goes to hell ? If so then its ok for a person to kill their baby if they decide they dont like the baby ? Wow now you are scaring me, no joke. So I can pray my heart out for someones salvation but if God has already decided they wont repent then my prayers are all for nothing ? That sure does not help my faith in the Lord. Why pray at all ?

This is strict Calvinism (though in some respects it goes beyond Calvin himself). I mentioned it because it had been part of the discussion. But I don’t accept it myself. I noted that it has some problems that I don’t think there are good answers to.

But still, even without Calvinism, if God is like most Christians think he is, he at the very least knows what is going to happen from the beginning. That includes both the kinds of decisions people are going to make, and who is going to pray. For that reason C S Lewis (in “Letters to Malcolm”) suggests that God has already decided to answer prayers from the beginning.

The only alternative I know of is the God doesn’t know what’s going to happen in detail, or isn’t all powerful. That’s Open Theism, which can't be discussed in this forum.

 

[keltoi]

Hate is just a word, that can take on the meaning of a dislike to never having been at all; which spans the distance between man and God; love is similar.

Get yourself a good Hebrew-Aramaic and Koine Greek concordance or use the tools provided in Biblehub. The original languages had very specific meanings and a word could be written in a variety of ways to indicate what meaning the word had.