"God does not kill" Books

[victoryword]

Sophia7

Thanks for all of your posts and your input. I may look into the book you mention. And yes, being a Charismatic may get me cries of heresy in many Christian circles, and not just SDA. I have no intentions of attending any SDA churches anytime soon anyway, so I may be safe from persecution for now

I am interested in some things about this group but I have way too many doctrinal disagreements to ever get too involved. Blessings.

 

[Sophia7]

I did write an article on my blog related to this subject you might want to read:
Adventist Media Response and Conversation: A response to Chris Lewis interview

Thanks for bringing that to our attention. It seems like quite a leap to me to conclude that if God didn't kill Jesus, that must mean that God never kills, but that seems to be the conclusion that some people assume that proponents of the moral-influence theory hold. I don't know how widespread the "God doesn't kill" idea is in Adventism, and perhaps Lewis and Wohlberg are misrepresenting some of the opposing arguments. (I haven't read their book, just that review and interview.) As I said, we did encounter that idea in some of our churches, but it was a minority perspective, and people were not quoting any well-known Adventist theologians. I agree that the real issue that those authors (and probably those of the BRI articles that I posted, too) are disputing is the moral-influence view of the atonement.

I'm curious about whom exactly they are trying to refute and what specifically they teach since they won't name their opponents. Not doing so would limit the evidence that they could provide to show that people are actually teaching what they claim.

 

[Sophia7]

Second, you wrote:

Maybe it is my own lack of knowledge but I would be interested in knowing who this book is really addressing.

Maybe you have recanted this later in your blog, but if you do not even take the time to fully research your subject, why write a blog on it? A search on the internet would have given you the names of some of these people and would have even provided you with source material. For example, SDA Elliott O' Douglin has a free book on his website title, "God's Character: The Best News in the Universe."

I think the point is that the authors of that book don't say whom they are addressing. It would be helpful to know that in order to evaluate whether they are representing their opponents' views accurately.

 

[victoryword]

I think the point is that the authors of that book don't say whom they are addressing. It would be helpful to know that in order to evaluate whether they are representing their opponents' views accurately.

Good point. My apologies to you on that one RC_NewProtestants. However, I still take isue with the idea that the Bible is not God's Word but only contains it. A lot of Liberals believe that way (and I guess some SDAs lean towards liberalism) and I am probably very Evangelical/Fundamental in my views of the Scripture, but Jesus Himself to say that the Scripture is the Word of God:

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

First, you lost me at this point in your blog when you said:

Thirdly the Bible is not God’s Word. At best it contains some of God’s words.

Since I fully accept the Bible (Scriptures - that which is written) as the Word of God, just as Jesus did (John 8:56; Matt. 4:1-11) then I have little respect for any writing by anyone who does not.

I am not surprised I lost you there since fundamentalism has ingrained itself into so much of Christianity. Jesus never said the Bible is the word of God never not once. He never said that the book of Acts is part of the Bible not once. And finally the Bible never claims that the Bible is the word of God, it could not do such a thing. You have allowed a foolish idea to dictate who you have respect for. You might find it interesting to read my articles: Is the Bible the Word of God part 1
Is the Bible the Word of God part 2

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

So I looked up that person who wrote Gods character I had never heard of him before. But pretty clearly he is a last generation perfectionist. Which is interesting in that there are so many of them who have intertwined with Graham Maxwell's theology. Probably in ways that he would never approve of either. As the author of the e-book concludes chapter 7 with:

By obeying God without the slightest deviation even in the face of death, and
by loving and forgiving their enemies, THEY WILL PROVE SATAN
WRONG AND GOD RIGHT and win the last battle in the long-standing
conflict between light and darkness.

I really hate that kind of logic which makes human beings the vindicator of God. But it is certainly a part of Adventism. I don't know of this author, if he is one the Wohlberg book refers to. But then I don't go out an buy every book out there so I can see what these less intelligent authors have to say or who they refer to. The ebook in question never says God does not kill, he does say that God gives them up and that is His wrath. Which I have no problem with just realize that the result is the same if God is the source of life and He separates from you, you die. So inevitably God the source of life also would be the cause of their death. I don't think God tries to hid from that idea either. The ebook carries the wrath giving up part over to Christ...why? Probably because of Ellen White because there is no New Testament passage saying that God poured out his wrath on Christ. That is just another of the man made traditions that went along with the penal atonement theory.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I really hate that kind of logic which makes human beings the vindicator of God.

Me too. Sadly, this logic lies at the heart of The Great Controversy.

BFA

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Me too. Sadly, this logic lies at the heart of The Great Controversy.

BFA

Depends on what a person means by "great controversy" since it really has no real definition it is whatever the person wants it to be. Which is why it is a term I don't use. It is always fun to ask someone who has used the term to tell you what the great controversy is. Usually they will say the battle between good and evil because that has long been the subject of Christianity. so then you can ask them why didn't they say the struggle between good and evil since most all Christians will know what you mean by that.

I have a couple of articles on the subject
Is Adventist Great Controversy unique
The Great Controversy View
Graham Maxwell's Great Controversy view

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Depends on what a person means by "great controversy"

My understanding of the way this phrase is used comes from the book that has this phrase as its title.

BFA

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

My understanding of the way this phrase is used comes from the book that has this phrase as its title.

BFA

Oh if that is the definition as in the title of the book
The Great Controversy
Between Christ and Satan

I have no problem with that view. I have major problems with lots of other stuff in the book, it is poor history and lots of conjecture about the future and past. But the title of the book as a description I totally agree with.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Oh if that is the definition as in the title of the book
The Great Controversy
Between Christ and Satan

I have no problem with that view. I have major problems with lots of other stuff in the book, it is poor history and lots of conjecture about the future and past. But the title of the book as a description I totally agree with.

Since my comments were based on the content of the book -- and not merely its title -- it seems that we may have similar concerns.

BFA

 

[solja247]

Exodus is a good example. An even more extreme one is where Saul disobeys God's command to kill ALL of the enemy, and brings back cattle, loot, and the king. The Prophet came and killed the king right then and there after blasting Saul for not doing so as commanded.

We do not know if God did command Saul to kill all those people. Remember, they had a primitive understanding of God.

I dont worship a God who kills babies.

 

[Alawishis]

Interesting. I've never heard this, "God never kills" viewpoint before either.

IMHO victoryword and Laodicean have it nailed. God does kill but as Laodicean says he is the author of all life. If he makes all life it is his call if he wishes to un-make it. Sometimes a sick dog has to be put down. Because we are stewards of the animals of the earth we get to make that call on a dog, but for mankind only God gets to make that call. I have trouble accepting this idea that God uses Satan to kill. I agree sometimes God withdraws his hand and Satan has his way. Usually it is through our actions we drive him away. But, at least sometimes, like someone else pointed out, Satan's actions carry out the work of God. I suppose the argument could be made that in the grand scheme this is always true.

 

[sentipente]

I encountered the "God does not kill" argument just as I was finishing my ministerial training and also on my first pastoral assignment. I could never figure out what the point of it was. Who cares if God does not kill if He does not prevent the killing? To me it was always a tempest in a teapot.

 

[watcher55]

I too have read the books you mentioned, and am absolutely convinced that God does not kill. The books merely served to confirm what i already believed.
the traditional concept of a killing God, can only be sustained by a superficial reading of the scriptures. I'll admit that to many this will sound like utter foolishness, even heretical. But that's understandable considering that we have all been socially and culturally indoctrinated so well in the misunderstandings of much of what the bible actually teaches. But there is hope for everyone who is willing to dig a little deeper and not just blindly accept time honored traditions. Truth can always stand up under scrutiny. This will. "God does not kill".

 

[stinsonmarri]

Greetings to All:​

"God does not kill"Books I asked the question below on the "Traditional Adventists" forum but received no reply. Hoping to do better here.​

I have read all the comments and I would like to answer your question. First of all I did not see it on the Traditional forum. Next, this progressive/moderate versus traditional SDA is not correct at all. I am just a faithful SDA and that is all. My belief is not base on what the Church says but what the Bible says. I stand on the original message of not just EGW but all of the pioneers including William Miller. This same type of problem was around during the days of Yashua there were different sect of believers all claiming Judaism. Today there are different Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Apostolic, Non-Denominational and yes even in Islam, Hindu, Buddhist and more! Why because we all want to make up our own rules from the norm. The Bible has made it clear what to believe but one believe one truth and another the other truth but neither all truth! I believe in the Bible and it only is my rule of faith.​

Killing is an incorrect word in the commandments: The Hebrew word "ratsach" means not to murder a human being. If you create something and it is not right you take it apart or destroy it. YAHWEH made us and He can destroy us and take us a part. He has that right not us. When He told those who disobeyed they were to be destroy because they were causing more harm! ​

Finally, why is it all about SDA instead of what the Bible says? Why even believe in the Bible at all because all was for the Jews and Gentiles you are second fiddle as you say. However that is not what the Bible says at all it says all flesh must obey Him and you and I are flesh! All of you who think that a book is going to change what is about to take place believe on because you are in for a great awaking! All mankind must obey laws of some sort and those who don't they causes chaos. Yet, Elohim laws and commands mean nothing that's why the world is in the mess it's in today!​

Blessing,​

stinsonmarri

 

[Alawishis]

stinsonmarri I Agree with what you are saying.

Here is my two cents.

First thing I should mention I have not read this book, and am not familiar with the arguments of the "God does not Kill" camp. These are my thoughts based on my walk with Christ so far.

Have you ever watched an animal suffer. Sometimes it's the loving thing to do to have the animal put down than to leave it to suffer. Now I want to make this perfectly clear. In no way am I condoning euthanasia for humans. That's a whole other can of worms. The fact is God has given us domain over the animals and for them we get to make these kinds of decisions. For man, only God gets to make that choice. As others have said here God made us he has the right to un-make us. God does not arbitrarily take lives away. He does this when it will cause more trouble to do otherwise. We say that God is love and it is certainly true, but we cannot ignore that God is also merciful. Sometimes love is best served in being merciful, and sometimes by the wisdom of God mercy is best served buy the removal of some humans. We cannot forget that justice and mercy are part of love.

Case in point the flood. God sent the flood to destroy the Earth. He knew what it would destroy all life including man saving Noah and the inhabitants of the ark. I'm not sure how one could reconcile that God did not kill here. Man had become so wicked that if God did not act, as he did, they would have destroyed the earth before the controversy between good and evil could be answered. God had to destroy the Earth in mercy. Though, from reading the scriptures it is apparent that it pained him tremendously to do so.

There are many other examples in scripture. God generally does not interfere in the choices of man, and leaves us to face the consequences of these choices. God has been accused of being unjust and the Enemy has claimed that it's better to be free of Gods laws. As someone else said, 'God does not kill babies'. I believe he will if it's the merciful thing to do. I don't say this lightly as I as many have lost several children to miscarrages. It's my belief they were taken by God in his wisdom to prevent great evil, or victims of our world of sin. This distinction is impossible to determine most times. This is where we must trust Gods wisdom. I believe God does not take life arbitrarily. Generally God lets the garden grow, but occasionally he does pull weeds to make sure the entire garden is not jeopardized. As a result most of the death we see is as a result of sin. The vast majority of times without Gods intervention there are more deaths, and that includes man turning his back on God. There is a no-win here in public opinion for our Lord. He gets blamed for the deaths when he does not intervene, because he did not stop it. So for God it is, if you'll pardon the rough colloquialism, "Dammed if He does, damned if he don't". God walks this line every day; if he intervenes he is criticized for not allowing freewill in man, if he does he is called controlling and unjust. If he takes a life he is called a murderer, if he does not step in to stop it, he is condemned for allowing death to happen.

This is a difficult subject, and to embark down this road we must realize that there is a lot going on in the universe that we do not see, and even more we do not have the wisdom to understand. Understand the great controversy; God must let sin run it's course so that all the universe will see and understand. We are told that in the end even the sinners will agree that God is just. God has promised he will end sin when Christ returns. He is not coming to destroy sinners but to destroy sin. It is His desire that all will be saved. Only those who cannot let go of their sin will be destroyed with it.

 

[JohnMarsten]

if God tells somebody to kill somebody, then there is actually no difference.

or could we say that if I hired somebody to kill somebody then I wasnt a murderer (because technically I didnt kill)...

besides the bible says we should fear the One who can kill body and soul in hell, which is obviously God

 

[OneThatGotAway]

Shaluem Alawishis,

Great point. I could have not said it better.
I agree. God does kill and He has done it in many ways such as:

1. Killed Himself (Genesis 6:7, Exodus 12:29, 2nd Thessalonians 2:8)
2. Killed via the Death Angel (2nd Samuel 24:16)
3. Killed via Shatan (the Devil) (Job 1:12)
4. Killed via demons (Genesis 6:2)
5. Killed via the sons Yishrael (Deuteronomy 3:6)
6. Killed via unholy armies (2nd Kings 24:1, 2nd Chronicles 36:22)
7. Killed via animals (1st Kings 13:24)
8. Killed via nature (Psalms 58:9)
​

Whether directly or indirectly, YAHWEH is the author and finisher of who lives and who dies.

Shabbath Shaluem,
OTGA

 

[Stefan777]

Sophia7 is correct. Soon144k has misrepresented the view of those who hold to this character of God. I will tell you plainly what it is. In regards to the justice of God Revelation 19:11 makes it clear that God judges in righteousness and doth make war in righteousness. Since God judges in righteousness we have to see how He does this. According to Psalm 119:142,144 and 172 the standard of righteousness is the law of God.The law of God declares thou shalt not kill. This is the perfect law of liberty,life and love that makes this declaration in the sixth commandment. Therefore no argument should be brought forth stating a difference between murder and kill, because both bring forth the end of life. Psalm 36:9 states that God is the fountain of life. Since LIFE comes from God and God alone, it is obvious that death comes from being separated from God. How is mankind separated from God. Isaiah 59:2 states that SIN brings about separation between Creator (Life-giver) and creature (life-receiver). This is how God's divine judgment occurs, it is founded on His 10 commandment law. Therefore God cannot violate His own law to judge humanity and that involves direct execution of them at the end of the world. Seriously take this into consideration and may God open your eyes to who He really is and how He deals with sinners. Here are a couple of SOP statements in support of this position:

"God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve. The seed of unbelief which he sowed produced a harvest of its kind. Thus his resistance continued, until he looked upon his devastated land, upon the cold, dead form of his first-born, and the first-born of all in his house and of all the families in his kingdom, until the waters of the sea closed over his horses and his chariots and his men of war. His history is a fearful illustration of the truth of the words that “whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.” Galatians 6:7. Did men but realize this, they would be careful what seed they sow." (COL 84)

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: “O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;” “for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.” Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan’s vindictive power over those who yield to his control. (GC 35)

The creation belongs to God. The Lord could, by neglecting man, stop his breath at once. All that he is and all that he has pertains to God. (FW 22)

There are even stronger statements concerning the same message by Sis White, I pray God truly opens your eyes and heart to the truth as it is in Jesus.