God does not desire to save the Reprobate.

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Blessedj01

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God is wonderful and adoption into his family is wonderful. Being holy like Christ is wonderful. There is nothing better that can be because God is the best there is all elese falls short.

Romans 9:18-23 ESV
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

God's glory is what it is about and that is awesome and very good. God always does exactly the best thing possible to be done, so trust in God and be amazed at his works.

Yeah, that's great bro. You wouldn't be saying that if you were one of the "reprobates."
 
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Osage Bluestem

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Yeah, that's great bro. You wouldn't be saying that if you were one of the "reprobates."


Of course I wouldn't. If I were a reprobate I would be a God hating child of the devil on my way to hell.

But, I'm not. By the grace of God, Christ died for me, I love him and delight in his ways.
 
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twin1954

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Alright, so God should just strike everyone dead right?
Absolutely! That is exactly what we not only deserve but what we go about blindly running after as hard as we can.

Surely you don't think God is obligated to show mercy do you?



The wonder of the mercy of God is that He does show it.
 
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Blessedj01

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Absolutely! That is exactly what we not only deserve but what we go about blindly running after as hard as we can.

Surely you don't think God is obligated to show mercy do you?



The wonder of the mercy of God is that He does show it.

But it's already decided isn't it? There's no room for anyone to repent is there? God's already "conformed" who He wanted, right?

So bring on the lightning, right?
 
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reformed ttL

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But it's already decided isn't it? There's no room for anyone to repent is there? God's already "conformed" who He wanted, right?

So bring on the lightning, right?
its funny as i watch these threads and see the man centered gospel instead of the God centered one, i have to say amazing grace that saved a wretch like me,then synergists wonder why we cant get a long with monergists its because the systems are almost completely opposite of each other. i suggest maybe have a look at what the other side teaches ask questions instead of just ranting and raving about nothing, there is a lot of seasoned veterens on here that can answer your questions
 
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WinBySurrender

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No it doesn't as you have shown. And my NASB says forebearance not tolerance btw. The 2 words bear a different conotation.
No they don't. Tolerance is not the politically correct word that the new agers have made it. You might want to look up Strong's #463. It defines the word anoche as "toleration, forearance." In Webster's ...

Tolerance: 1: capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina
2a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : toleration

... the definition fits the PC way of life, but that is not what tolerance or toleration is. In fact, the Webster's definition in 1828 defined it thusly:

Forbearance: The power or capacity of enduring; or the act of enduring.
Search => [word] => tolerance :: 1828 Dictionary
That looks very much like the definition of forbearance in today's Webster's:

1: obsolete : to do without
2: to hold oneself back from especially with an effort <forbore mentioning the incident>
3obsolete : to leave alone : shun <forbear his presence &#8212; Shakespeare>

By the way, the NASB's last update removed "forbearance" from its pages because, as you can see, the word is almost obsolete and has the same meaning as "tolerance" or "toleration." No, it doesn't have the exact same sentence structure in its definition but we are supposed to be discerning enough about the language to understand they mean the same thing, just as you should be discerning enough about the language to see the previously quoted verses from two different Bibles still say the same thing.
Ad Hominem arguments such as this are only used because the truth cannot be refuted. I usually ignore them.
There's nothing ad hominem about the argument. You don't understand the word, I've told you what it means. The fact is that SharonL's quote has the same meaning as it does in the NASB.
 
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Hupomone10

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It's not circular reasoning.

hmmm...
Maybe I'm slow, but what it sounds like you're saying is
Someone who is accursed is a person who is destined to damnation.

Ok.

To me that's like saying someone who isn't saved is destined to be lost.

Again I ask, define reprobate, for aren't there more that will end up in damnation than just reprobates? If so, I would think there are more defining characteristics of a reprobate than merely "those who are destined to damnation."

If you are still unwilling to define it, I will do so.
 
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Osage Bluestem

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Hupomone10 said:
hmmm...
Maybe I'm slow, but what it sounds like you're saying is
Someone who is accursed is a person who is destined to damnation.

Ok.

To me that's like saying someone who isn't saved is destined to be lost.

Again I ask, define reprobate, for aren't there more that will end up in damnation than just reprobates? If so, I would think there are more defining characteristics of a reprobate than merely "those who are destined to damnation."

If you are still unwilling to define it, I will do so.

A reprobate is a person or angel destined to damnation by God for his good and wise purpose as I said before. Its a simple definition. They are the only ones damned.
 
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twin1954

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No they don't. Tolerance is not the politically correct word that the new agers have made it. You might want to look up Strong's #463. It defines the word anoche as "toleration, forearance." In Webster's ...

Tolerance: 1: capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina
2a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : toleration

... the definition fits the PC way of life, but that is not what tolerance or toleration is. In fact, the Webster's definition in 1828 defined it thusly:

Forbearance: The power or capacity of enduring; or the act of enduring.
Search => [word] => tolerance :: 1828 Dictionary
That looks very much like the definition of forbearance in today's Webster's:

1: obsolete : to do without
2: to hold oneself back from especially with an effort <forbore mentioning the incident>
3obsolete : to leave alone : shun <forbear his presence — Shakespeare>

By the way, the NASB's last update removed "forbearance" from its pages because, as you can see, the word is almost obsolete and has the same meaning as "tolerance" or "toleration." No, it doesn't have the exact same sentence structure in its definition but we are supposed to be discerning enough about the language to understand they mean the same thing, just as you should be discerning enough about the language to see the previously quoted verses from two different Bibles still say the same thing.There's nothing ad hominem about the argument. You don't understand the word, I've told you what it means. The fact is that SharonL's quote has the same meaning as it does in the NASB.
If you had bothered to actually read you might have noticed that I didn't say that they don't have the same meaning but that they have diffierent connotations. The word forebear may be obsolete in modern usage but it isn't an obsolete word. If you had bothered to actually study how dictionaries use the word obsolete you would have known that as well. The dictionary writers, or editors if you wish, declare a word obsolete and mark it as such when it is not used in common language but they do not mean the word has no defintion any more. If it had no defintion they wouldn't include it in the dictionary.

As to the modern understanding of the word tolerance the new age defintion is what most folk think of when they hear the word. That is what its connotation is. Tolerance is acceptance or overlooking that which we disagree with. It has a different connotation than forebearance.


No matter how much you wish it were true the passage doesn't say anything like what Sharonl posited in her qoute. Again I point you to the context.

Just denying that you have made an Ad Hominen argument sure did convince me of it. :doh:
 
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twin1954

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Just in case you need it.
con·no·ta·tion

&#8194; &#8194;/&#716;k&#594;n&#601;&#712;te&#618;&#643;&#601;n/ http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.htmlShow Spelled[kon-uh-tey-shuhn] http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.htmlShow IPA
noun 1. an act or instance of connoting.

2. the associated or secondary meaning of a word or expression in addition to its explicit or primary meaning: A possible connotation of “home” is “a place of warmth, comfort, and affection.” Compare denotation ( def. 1 ) .

3. Logic . the set of attributes constituting the meaning of a term and thus determining the range of objects to which that term may be applied; comprehension; intension.
 
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DeaconDean

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No they don't. Tolerance is not the politically correct word that the new agers have made it. You might want to look up Strong's #463.

Actually:

" &#7970; &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#960;&#955;&#959;&#8059;&#964;&#959;&#965; &#964;&#8134;&#962; &#967;&#961;&#951;&#963;&#964;&#8057;&#964;&#951;&#964;&#959;&#962; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#959;&#8166; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#964;&#8134;&#962; &#7936;&#957;&#959;&#967;&#8134;&#962; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#964;&#8134;&#962; &#956;&#945;&#954;&#961;&#959;&#952;&#965;&#956;&#8055;&#945;&#962; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#966;&#961;&#959;&#957;&#949;&#8150;&#962;, &#7936;&#947;&#957;&#959;&#8182;&#957; &#8005;&#964;&#953; &#964;&#8056; &#967;&#961;&#951;&#963;&#964;&#8056;&#957; &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#952;&#949;&#959;&#8166; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#956;&#949;&#964;&#8049;&#957;&#959;&#953;&#8049;&#957; &#963;&#949; &#7940;&#947;&#949;&#953;; " -Rom. 2:4 (GNT)

"&#7936;&#957;&#959;&#967;&#8053;" "forebearance, patience" (Rom. 2:4; 3:26)

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Hendrickson Publishing, Peabody, Mass., 01962, "&#7936;&#957;&#959;&#967;&#8053;", p. 32

&#7936;&#957;&#959;&#967;&#942; &#7936;&#957;&#941;&#967;&#969;

I. a holding back, stopping, esp. of hostilities: pl., like Lat. induciae, an armistice, truce, Xen.
II. &#65288;&#7936;&#957;&#941;&#967;&#959;&#956;&#945;&#953;) forbearance, NTest.

&#7936;&#957;&#959;&#967;&#942; , &#7969;, A. [select] holding back, stopping, esp. of hostilities: hence mostly in pl., armistice, truce, X.Mem.4.4.17; &#7936;&#957;&#959;&#967;&#8048;&#962; &#960;&#959;&#953;&#949;&#8150;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953; Decr. ap. D. 18.164; &#8220;&#948;&#953;&#948;&#972;&#957;&#945;&#953;&#8221; D.H.8.68; &#8220;&#963;&#960;&#949;&#943;&#963;&#945;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953;&#8221; Plu.Pel.29; &#8220;&#945;&#7985; &#922;&#945;&#955;&#955;&#953;&#963;&#952;&#941;&#957;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#7936;.&#8221; Aeschin.2.31; &#8220;&#945;&#7985; &#7953;&#958;&#945;&#949;&#964;&#949;&#8150;&#962; &#7936;.&#8221; D.H.3.59; cf. &#7936;&#957;&#959;&#954;&#969;&#967;&#942;.
2. [select] time, opportunity, &#8220;&#959;&#8016;&#954; &#7956;&#948;&#969;&#954;&#949;&#957; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#959;&#8150;&#962; &#7936;&#957;&#959;&#967;&#8052;&#957; &#7952;&#956;&#946;&#945;&#964;&#949;&#8166;&#963;&#945;&#953;&#8221; LXX 1 Ma.12.25; &#7969;&#956;&#949;&#961;&#8182;&#957; &#7936;. delay of some days, POxy.1068.15 (iii A.D.).
3. [select] pl., &#7936;&#957;&#959;&#967;&#945;&#943;, = Lat. feriae, D.C.39.30.
4. [select] &#7936;&#957;&#959;&#967;&#945;&#8054;&#948;&#953;&#954;&#8182;&#957;, = Lat. iustitium, Id.55.26.
II. [select] (&#7936;&#957;&#941;&#967;&#959;&#956;&#945;&#953;) long-suffering, forbearance, Ep.Rom.2.4, 3.26.
2. [select] &#7936;&#957;&#959;&#967;&#8052;&#957; &#7936;&#957;&#945;&#960;&#945;&#973;&#955;&#951;&#962; &#948;&#953;&#948;&#972;&#957;&#945;&#953; permission to rest, Hdn.3.6.10.
3. [select] relief from disease, Philum. ap. Orib.Syn.8.3.4.
III. [select] = &#7936;&#957;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#955;&#942;, Poll.4.157, Hsch.

Liddell and Scott. An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1889.

Source

It says nothing about "tolerance".

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Hupomone10

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A reprobate is a person or angel destined to damnation by God for his good and wise purpose as I said before. Its a simple definition. They are the only ones damned.
If that's your definition, then it's definitely circular reasoning.

It's like saying "Those who are destined to damnation are destined to damnation." Just defining a word in such a way that you can use it to try to prove Christ didn't die for some people.

On the other hand, reprobate is an actual word used in the New Testament, from an actual Greek word, and has a real definition.

It means a castaway, rejected, disqualified. One had to be accepted in some form or fashion first in order to later be rejected. I take that as obvious.

1 Cor 9:27
but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

The Greek word for "qualified" is the same Greek word as used for "reprobate" in Romans 1.
v.28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind

Paul supported the idea that a person could be accepted and later be rejected. Not from eternal life, but from reward. The context makes that clear. If you're making up your own definition for the word and then using the word in that context, then we can't really discuss it anyway; but Scripture disagrees with that and there is a real use of the word and a real meaning of the word used.

Are you making up your own definition and not using the word as it is used in the New Testament? If so, then I won't bother to push the point any farther.

H.

 
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Blessedj01

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its funny as i watch these threads and see the man centered gospel instead of the God centered one, i have to say amazing grace that saved a wretch like me,then synergists wonder why we cant get a long with monergists its because the systems are almost completely opposite of each other. i suggest maybe have a look at what the other side teaches ask questions instead of just ranting and raving about nothing, there is a lot of seasoned veterens on here that can answer your questions

I am neither. I just don't like it when people try to say that God plans for some people to be damned, or that responding to God's grace is automatic.
 
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Osage Bluestem

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If that's your definition, then it's definitely circular reasoning.

Stop acting like you don't know the meaning of simple words. We all went to school.

---------------------------------
From Merriam Webster:

1rep·ro·bate

verb \&#712;re-pr&#601;-&#716;b&#257;t\
rep·ro·bat·edrep·ro·bat·ing




Definition of REPROBATE

transitive verb
1
: to condemn strongly as unworthy, unacceptable, or evil <reprobating the laxity of the age>

2
: to foreordain to damnation

3
: to refuse to accept : reject
------------------------------------------
Reprobate - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

You act as if I made up the definition of reprobate. In all theological documentation it means foreordained to damnation. Everyone knows that. Lets move along. It's silly to define over and over again simple words.
 
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bottomofsandal

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Stop acting like you don't know the meaning of simple words. We all went to school.


If "reprobate" is toxic, then here is different, maybe more accurate terminology.


Chapter III

Of God's Eternal Decree

I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]
II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;[4] yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[5]
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels[6] are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.[7]
IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[8]
V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] and all to the praise of His glorious grace.[11]
VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16]
VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.[17]
VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18] that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]
 
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reformed ttL

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I am neither. I just don't like it when people try to say that God plans for some people to be damned, or that responding to God's grace is automatic.
well you still have the same outcome at the end, that God created people who will end up hell..it was not a suprised by it.also we need to remember that God was not obliged to save any one, so if we start there then we are amazed and thankfull that he did save us..
 
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Hupomone10

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Is a person who has turned to the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, Islam, or even Catholicism, from evangelical Christianity a reprobate? Or is it confined to moral depravity? ("men of depraved mind, rejected as regards the faith." - 2 Tim 3:8)

IOW, is doctrinal depravity included in those who are reprobate?
Any person who goes to hell is a reprobate who God hates.
I'll take that as a 'yes.' vague, but a 'yes.'

My son, having been saved at around 11 years old, has just gone through RCIS and become a Catholic. He is 23 yrs old now, and has a Catholic girlfriend which had nothing to do with his conversion (yes, just as 5-point Calvinists see it as a conversion when they change from 4-point to 5, they call it a conversion when you go to catholic also, I believe).

He gave plenty of evidence that he was saved before.
I was there and observed his life and saw it happen.

QUESTION: Is he a reprobate regarding the faith? He would be considered by some to be a reprobate to the faith, would he not? I'm not talking about Osage's webster definition, but the one Scripture itself gives us when it uses the word in a context like 2 Tim 3:8, that those who truly turn from the faith are "rejected."
 
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