God creates evil.

[razeontherock]

Show me one person who bears good fruit in the name of Christianity (who was not a good person prior to doing so).

Peter / Simon. Heck, ALL the Disciples! (Including me)

 

[razeontherock]

Somebody else wrote the first paragraph, and our OP's response is in red:

Lastly, and apologies if I'm stating the obvious here. I don't want to assume anything about what you may or may not have thought when you were a Christian. But one thing that keeps coming back to me (not only in this topic but with others) is "there are some things we're not meant to know this side of Heaven" (or this side of death, or whatever). In this case I'm thinking of the thread title. You're absolutely right to ask where evil came from if it wasn't God. The truth is, nobody can know. Sound like a cop-out? Probably, but it's about the only thing any of us have got.

I think we CAN know. The spirit of Truth is said to teach us "all things". Or do you not believe that?

That is not an agnostic position. Also, you state evil is knowable, per the Bible presumably, since you don't differ from it's position on the matter. And yet in this same thread you have not merely stated, but repeatedly ridiculed the idea that any of us can know God.

Look in a mirror lately? What hypocrisy ...

 

[razeontherock]

Ahh, I must have misunderstood you. I thought you meant you had had spritual attacks/manifestations like that. Sorry. For the record, I wasn't looking for it either...

We should maybe swap stories sometime

 

[razeontherock]

I'm not so concerned with where evil came from, as I am in hearing christians explain why God apparently creates it, as per the bible's statements in the OT.

False dichotomy

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Peter / Simon. Heck, ALL the Disciples! (Including me)

So going around insulting people and belittling them is a transformed life?

 

[seekingagnostic32]

False dichotomy

How so?

 

[seekingagnostic32]

We should maybe swap stories sometime

You should do it here. Might convince someone to have faith, rather than them listening to your insults or mocking.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Somebody else wrote the first paragraph, and our OP's response is in red:



That is not an agnostic position. Also, you state evil is knowable, per the Bible presumably, since you don't differ from it's position on the matter. And yet in this same thread you have not merely stated, but repeatedly ridiculed the idea that any of us can know God.

Look in a mirror lately? What hypocrisy ...

Who said it was?

Evil is knowable for anyone with a sense of compassion or morality. Sadly religion strips that from you.

Where did I ever say we can never know God??

Christians are hypocrites too.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

This is enough to get infractions, and banned pretty quickly.

If talking about religion is enough to get someone banned, then it is quite obviously false since it is unable to withstand the slightest criticisms.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

I absolutely and totally agree with you here. There are indeed both good and evil spirits at work.

Yes.



Yup, you make a good point about rotten religious people and good secular ones. However... "a bad tree produces bad fruit"? Well, yep...up to a point. Let's say Joe Schmoe has been a right cretin all his life. He's cheated, been abusive, lied, stolen...the works. Then by whatever means he's introduced to Jesus and transformed by the holy spirit. He goes on to never abuse, lie, steal, whatever from that day forth. He dedicates his life to helping others, so humbled is he by God's grace. Is that still a "bad tree giving bad fruit?" After all, he's still the same Joe Schmoe that he was before.

? Show me ONE christian who has stopped lying, cheating and abusing from "this day forth". I know not one.

I have not seen any xtians change like that. I have seen many bad people use religion as a mask to hide their filth, and many good, secular people do much good without a religion. Explain that.

OK, I have a bit more reading to do, by the looks of it Can you point me to some Bible verses as a starting point?

For what? I would expect you to know the bible better than I, a "lowly non-christian".


Ah, in that case I'll stand up right now and freely admit that I have no explanation for this. Maybe someone else can explain it to us both

I already have my answer. I answered it elsewhere in another topic. It has to do with ancient Jewish folklore and the OT's authors. When you understand how the bible was written, by whom, and for what purpose, all of this suddenly makes sense.

 

[GodsDaughter1981]

Ah, good. I'm glad you got the answer you were looking for

Just to add, though... I don't know why you're coming out with the "lowly non-Christian" talk with me. You said that other Christians had treated you badly in the past - that's awful and should not have happened. Why you're using that to have a dig at me is unclear; I certainly don't think you're "lowly" just because we don't share the same beliefs.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Ah, good. I'm glad you got the answer you were looking for

Just to add, though... I don't know why you're coming out with the "lowly non-Christian" talk with me. You said that other Christians had treated you badly in the past - that's awful and should not have happened. Why you're using that to have a dig at me is unclear; I certainly don't think you're "lowly" just because we don't share the same beliefs.

Yes, but my answer is apparently "unacceptable" from a christian point of view. Remember, as christians, we're... or "you're" supposed to blindly accept every syllable in the Hebrew (and Greek) bibles without so much as asking a question... because questioning can lead to doubting.

Do you even *know* what I believe...? And BTW, I doubt if any human being on earth shares your exact beliefs on everything.

I just think it's unfair to say you know what I believe. I don't even know what you believe, aside from the few things you've shared. I feel that religious people assume too much.

 

[golgotha61]

Dear Seekingagnostic32,

I have read most of the dialogue in this thread and I have to agree on some of your points. Sometimes we Christians get carried away and full of ourselves and we hurt instead of help those who need guidance. I don't remember if I have posted with you before or not, but if I have and I have caused you pain, I am sorry.

It appears one of the issues you have biblicaly, is the interpretation of Isaiah 45:7. May I suggest another look? Some folks do not appreciate it when I say this but, the Bible as well as being the infallible, inspired, truthful word of God in its original autographs, was compiled as a work of literature. With that in mind, certain rules of literary interpretation must apply to the contents of the Bible. For instance, the Bible is comprised of several literary genres that require treatment according their characteristics.Poetry and prophecy are examples.

Isaiah is a prophet who at times speaks through oracles in the form of poetry and that is what ch 45 is. Since this is the case, the complete literal interpretation is not what is called for. Poetry and oracles often use picture language to engage their audience, ViaCrusis does a good job in explaining the intended audience and in addition to what he says, the culture that this oracle was intended for also was familiar with and comfortable with this type of language. If you would be open to further study in the area of Old Testament interpretation, there is a book that has been helpful to me: Cracking Old Testament Codes. D. Brent Sandy and Ronald L. Giese Jr.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Dear Seekingagnostic32,

I have read most of the dialogue in this thread and I have to agree on some of your points. Sometimes we Christians get carried away and full of ourselves and we hurt instead of help those who need guidance. I don't remember if I have posted with you before or not, but if I have and I have caused you pain, I am sorry.

It appears one of the issues you have biblicaly, is the interpretation of Isaiah 45:7. May I suggest another look? Some folks do not appreciate it when I say this but, the Bible as well as being the infallible, inspired, truthful word of God in its original autographs, was compiled as a work of literature.

Where are the original autographs? There are none!

So you have no way of knowing that.

I do not believe that all of the ot is inspired and certainly not "inerrant". How could fallible "sinners" as you like to call men produce a "perfect" book?

And anything perfect, by definition, must be God. Is the bible your god?

With that in mind, certain rules of literary interpretation must apply to the contents of the Bible. For instance, the Bible is comprised of several literary genres that require treatment according their characteristics.Poetry and prophecy are examples.

Isaiah is a prophet who at times speaks through oracles in the form of poetry and that is what ch 45 is. Since this is the case, the complete literal interpretation is not what is called for. Poetry and oracles often use picture language to engage their audience, ViaCrusis does a good job in explaining the intended audience and in addition to what he says, the culture that this oracle was intended for also was familiar with and comfortable with this type of language. If you would be open to further study in the area of Old Testament interpretation, there is a book that has been helpful to me: Cracking Old Testament Codes. D. Brent Sandy and Ronald L. Giese Jr.

Well, if it's the so-called "perfect" word of the Lord of the Universe, then I think if it says "I'm God, I create evil" then that is what it means. There is nothing poetic about that.

That was evidently a prophecy to YHWH's messiah, Cyrus, showing how he ruled even evil in contrast to the more accurate religion of the Zorastrians, which had a Good Supreme God and an evil one, like your satan.

 

[GodsDaughter1981]

Yes, but my answer is apparently "unacceptable" from a christian point of view. Remember, as christians, we're... or "you're" supposed to blindly accept every syllable in the Hebrew (and Greek) bibles without so much as asking a question... because questioning can lead to doubting.

Do you even *know* what I believe...? And BTW, I doubt if any human being on earth shares your exact beliefs on everything.

I just think it's unfair to say you know what I believe. I don't even know what you believe, aside from the few things you've shared. I feel that religious people assume too much.

Hey there,

I certainly didn't mean to come across as presumptive. If I did, I apologise.

What I meant was that you're at a stage of doubting and I'm not (at the moment). That's what I meant by "we don't share the same beliefs". I never claimed to know what you believe. There's nothing wrong with you doubting at all, it does not make you a lesser person. For me, the times of doubt only serve to make my faith stronger. This might not be the same for you and that's ok. Don't let anyone tell you you're dirty/rotten/evil for doubting things.

As for "believing every syllable of the Hebrew and Greek Bibles without asking so much as a question" - maybe some people can do that and be content in it. I'm not one of them. Think of it this way: I don't know if you have kids or want any but suppose you have a son, and one day he asks you as question about your life. Is it going to help your relationship with him any if you scream and yell at him about how evil/nasty etc he is for asking that? Or would you take the time to explain to him... maybe show him a journal of yours from a while back (if you kept one and still have it)? What would build and strengthen that relationship and assure him of your love?

Suppose then he read the journal and there was really archaic stuff in it that he didn't understand - instructions for how to use an Atari, f'rinstance? He'd ask you about that too. He might ask other people about it. Would anybody have the right to insult, mock or belittle him for asking and doubting whether that old bit of junk could ever have been useful?

Or another one: what if you'd written a lot of stuff in there that he didn't understand but felt that he didn't agree with? He got really angry with you when he read it? Would you again tell him how evil and bad and nasty and etc he was for not agreeing?

Same goes for the Bible. There's a whole load of Jewish law in there that was relevant at the time but we look at it and go "huh?!" That's ok, people 2000 years from now will look at stuff we're doing now and wonder at what a strange world we lived in. "what, they had to take their own rubbish out...THEMSELVES?! "

What I'm trying to say is that the finer points of Deutoronomy don't affect my day to day relationship with God as I know him. Don't let yourself get too bogged down in "I have to make this verse make perfect sense to me or I can't/wont' be a Christian!"

Also, I'm going to answer your question from the other thread in here, because it's kind of relevant too. There's no "magic formula" that needs to happen before someone becomes a Christian or gives their life back to Christ. It's a simple matter of praying (and there's no set formula for that either, just say whatever comes to mind).

Religion is full of "if you do a and b and eat c, wear a d on a Tuesday afternoon and sing an e backwards and say f, g and h IN THAT ORDER!!!" and in the end it's all rubbish, really. What matters is the relationship between each of us with God, and the responsibility that then places on each of us in terms of how we treat each other.

I'm not about to try and plead and beg with you or convince you to "become a Christian". That's a decision you have to take for yourself, at a time when it's right for you - if it's ever right for you. If it's not, and you don't want to, it's your decision. I certainly won't think you're a bad person for having made that decision.

 

[razeontherock]

Remember, as christians, we're... or "you're" supposed to blindly accept every syllable in the Hebrew (and Greek) bibles without so much as asking a question...

Add this to the very long and growing list of things where you're horribly mistaken. (Oh, and I point them out so you can see where making amends will be productive; if your heart is not inclined towards that it is not within my control)

 

[razeontherock]

So going around insulting people and belittling them is a transformed life?

I have neither insulted nor belittled you. You can't stand up to any measure of scrutiny, while you criticize things you have no understanding of.

OTOH, you have viciously attacked everyone that has offered help, including the very forum itself. You pretend to play the part of an innocent victim, but only a fool would not see through such shallowness.

I really don't think you're seriously seeking anything (and welcome to my ignore list)

 

[golgotha61]

Where are the original autographs? There are none!

So you have no way of knowing that.

That is true, there are no extant examples of the original autographs but logically there had to have existed. I know they are true and without error by these Scriptures: Romans 3:4 says God is true; 2 Timothy 3:16 says the Scriptures are God breathed; therefore the Scriptures are true and error free because they came from the breath of God who is true.

I do not believe that all of the ot is inspired and certainly not "inerrant". How could fallible "sinners" as you like to call men produce a "perfect" book?

In 2 Peter 1:21 Peter emphasizes that no Scripture is produced as a result of human will; rather, it is the product of the superintending power of the Holy Spirit. The Moody Handbook of Theology pg 167.

And anything perfect, by definition, must be God. Is the bible your god?

The Bible is the Word of God and since God is perfect then so is His Word. His Word however, is an extension of God. His thoughts are also perfect but His thoughts are not a god. The earth, at the moment of the completion of creation was perfect but it is not a god. So the definition of perfect = God, is illogical.

Well, if it's the so-called "perfect" word of the Lord of the Universe, then I think if it says "I'm God, I create evil" then that is what it means. There is nothing poetic about that.

The verse in discussion in Isaiah, is an "oracle" written in the structure of poetry. If you would take the time to read some books, like the one I suggested, you would help yourself in the understanding of Old Testament literature.

That was evidently a prophecy to YHWH's messiah, Cyrus, showing how he ruled even evil in contrast to the more accurate religion of the Zorastrians, which had a Good Supreme God and an evil one, like your satan.

The timeline for this contrast to be accurate is off by about 100 years. I categorically and without reservation disagree with your statement of Zorastrianism being more accurate than the God of the Bible.

 

[Theofane]

But if your god is omnipotent and created everything in the beginning he must be responsible for all evil things too. Then it must be part of some divine plan- a twisted immoral plan. This is one of the reasons that I dont think that the biblical god exists.

Then why are you here-- really?

 

[Theofane]

Is evil without a purpose? I don't think so.