God and Time

[Stryder06]

So I've heard a lot of people make very compelling arguements explaing how God is outside of time.

The more I think about it though the more I'm not sure that we're looking at this the right way. Of course we agree that God is eternal, having no end of beginning, but does this mean that He doesn't operate with time as a consideration?

I'm not saying that God is affected by time, rather that God uses time and considers it the same way we do. I think the only difference is is that God isn't pressed for time like we are.

Of course this is just what i've been thinking. Please share your thoughts because I'd love to have other input to base my opinions off of.

 

[MrPolo]

This video is an analogy of how God operates in dimensions beyond our capacity to understand. It's a cartoon to boot.

YouTube - Dr Quantum - Flatland

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Mr. Polo,
I watched the video, though it didn't really help me understand time in God's view point (though I did get that there are many dimensions, but I doubt that Dr. Quantum was trying to prove God's perspective) but now I'm interested in Quantum Physics. Thanks for that.

 

[E.C.]

There are two different Greek words for time.

"Chronos" is man's time.
"Kairos" is God's time.

God operates on Kairos. Sometimes we wish He would operate on Chronos, but God is God and therefore He is outside of this Chronos stuff. However, whether He 'uses' Chronos or not or considers it in some way of how He works or not is beyond human comprehension.
One of those things that are best left a mystery.


In the Orthodox Church when priests go through seminary they are taught that when they are in the altar area of the church they are no longer on Chronos, but are on Kairos and therefore should not have watches and the like inside the altar area because watches keep track of Chronos. Only God keeps track of Kairos. When I was taught how to be an acolyte (or altar server, but I prefer acolyte) that was one of the things I was taught.

Kind of like God saying "Your on my time now".


Whenever God's time meets man's time is one of those cases of "only God knows..."

God is the Alpha and the Omega. How can one be affected by time when they are both the beginning and the end?

 

[freeport]

So I've heard a lot of people make very compelling arguements explaing how God is outside of time.

The more I think about it though the more I'm not sure that we're looking at this the right way. Of course we agree that God is eternal, having no end of beginning, but does this mean that He doesn't operate with time as a consideration?

I'm not saying that God is affected by time, rather that God uses time and considers it the same way we do. I think the only difference is is that God isn't pressed for time like we are.

Of course this is just what i've been thinking. Please share your thoughts because I'd love to have other input to base my opinions off of.

Christ is in time even as we are, God the Father is outside of time entirely.

God the Father is always at work, even though He is outside of time.

No one sees the Father but the Son, and whoever the Son shows the Father: Jesus is God incarnate. Isaiah saw Jesus on the throne, as did other Christians.

The prophets heard from the Father through Jesus, for instance, you see with the flood God saying He was sorry He made man, and through the Prophets you see Him react in real time on various events of Israel.

For the Holy Spirit that spoke to the Prophets is the same Holy Spirit we of the Kingdom of God are born into.

(This is why it is said, for instance, of the prophet John the Baptist that 'the least of the Kingdom of God is greater then he'. John was led by the Father, as were all those who came to Jesus before they were born again, but they were not yet born again -- but will be at the resurrection.)

 

[nephilimiyr]

So I've heard a lot of people make very compelling arguements explaing how God is outside of time.

The more I think about it though the more I'm not sure that we're looking at this the right way. Of course we agree that God is eternal, having no end of beginning, but does this mean that He doesn't operate with time as a consideration?

I'm not saying that God is affected by time, rather that God uses time and considers it the same way we do. I think the only difference is is that God isn't pressed for time like we are.

Of course this is just what i've been thinking. Please share your thoughts because I'd love to have other input to base my opinions off of.

What, you didn't like this discussion so you had to make another one?
http://www.christianforums.com/t7391030/

Of course God considers time and uses it, even manipulates it since it is written that He actually turned back time, you ever hear of King Hezekiah? Plus all the miracles where God worked and manipulated time and space; parting the Red Sea, making the blind see, and healing all who came to him. Did He use time for these miracles? Hardly, He used his power to manipulate it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There are two different Greek words for time.

"Chronos" is man's time.
"Kairos" is God's time.

God operates on Kairos. Sometimes we wish He would operate on Chronos, but God is God and therefore He is outside of this Chronos stuff. However, whether He 'uses' Chronos or not or considers it in some way of how He works or not is beyond human comprehension.
One of those things that are best left a mystery.

That would be an interesting study.
I like to look at how words are used in Revelation.
Here are the first 2 times they are used in that book:

http://www.scripture4all.org/


Reve 1:3 Happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the prophecy and keepings the in it having been written for the time/kairoV <2540> nigh.

Reve 2:21 And I give her time/cronon <5550> that she should be reforming *and not she is willing to reform out of the prostitution of her*.

2540. kairos kahee-ros' of uncertain affinity; an occasion, i.e. set or proper time:--X always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while. Compare 5550.

5550. chronos khron'-os of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in general, and thus properly distinguished from 2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from 165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension, an individual opportunity; by implication, delay:--+ years old, season, space, (X often-)time(-s), (a) while.


Strong's Number G2540 matches the Greek &#954;&#945;&#953;&#961;&#8057;&#962; (kairos), which occurs 87 times in 82 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV.......including 5 times in Revelation 1:3

Strong's Number G5550 matches the Greek &#967;&#961;&#8057;&#957;&#959;&#962; (chronos), which occurs 53 times in 53 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV....including 4 times in Revelation 2:21

 

[BrendanMark]

Maybe this helps (maybe not):

Eternity is quite distinct from perpetuity, from mere endless continuance in time. Perpetuity is only the attainment of an endless series of moments, each lost as soon as it is attained. Eternity is the actual and timeless fruition of illimitable life. Time, even endless time, is only an image, almost a parody, of that plenitude; a hopeless attempt to compensate for the transitoriness of its ‘presents’ by infinitely multiplying them. That is why Shakespeare’s Lucrece calls it ‘thou ceaseless lackey to eternity’ (Rape, 967). And God is eternal, not perpetual. Strictly speaking, He never foresees; He simply sees. Your ‘future’ is only an area, and only for us a special area, of His infinite Now. He sees (not remembers) your yesterday’s acts because yesterday is still ‘there’ for Him; he sees (not foresees) your tomorrow’s acts because He is already in tomorrow. As a human spectator, by watching my present act, does not at all infringe its freedom, so I am none the less free to act as I choose in the future because God, in the future (His present) watches me acting.
Lewis, C.S. – The Discarded Image [Cambridge 1964 p89]

 

[Stryder06]

Maybe this helps (maybe not):

Eternity is quite distinct from perpetuity, from mere endless continuance in time. Perpetuity is only the attainment of an endless series of moments, each lost as soon as it is attained. Eternity is the actual and timeless fruition of illimitable life. Time, even endless time, is only an image, almost a parody, of that plenitude; a hopeless attempt to compensate for the transitoriness of its ‘presents’ by infinitely multiplying them. That is why Shakespeare’s Lucrece calls it ‘thou ceaseless lackey to eternity’ (Rape, 967). And God is eternal, not perpetual. Strictly speaking, He never foresees; He simply sees. Your ‘future’ is only an area, and only for us a special area, of His infinite Now. He sees (not remembers) your yesterday’s acts because yesterday is still ‘there’ for Him; he sees (not foresees) your tomorrow’s acts because He is already in tomorrow. As a human spectator, by watching my present act, does not at all infringe its freedom, so I am none the less free to act as I choose in the future because God, in the future (His present) watches me acting.
Lewis, C.S. – The Discarded Image [Cambridge 1964 p89]

The only thing about this is that it makes time a continuum (if i'm reading it right). I don't think that our futures are already happening or that are pasts are still there. I believe that God can move in time and manipulate it as He sees fit.

But still it's a good explanation, gives me something to think about. Thanks.

 

[Stryder06]

What, you didn't like this discussion so you had to make another one?
http://www.christianforums.com/t7391030/

I'd like to think that this thread is vastly different from that one as I am not questioning God's origin. I'm questioning whether or not we should say that God is outside of time.

This isn't to put a limit on God, rather I think it would be about considering time differently.

 

[MrPolo]

Mr. Polo,
I watched the video, though it didn't really help me understand time in God's view point (though I did get that there are many dimensions, but I doubt that Dr. Quantum was trying to prove God's perspective) but now I'm interested in Quantum Physics. Thanks for that.

You're welcome. I presented it as an analogy. You see how God operates outside of spatial dimension beyond our capacity to understand, and from there you can hypothesize that He operates in a temporal state beyond our capacity.

 

[narnia59]

There are two different Greek words for time.

"Chronos" is man's time.
"Kairos" is God's time.

God operates on Kairos. Sometimes we wish He would operate on Chronos, but God is God and therefore He is outside of this Chronos stuff. However, whether He 'uses' Chronos or not or considers it in some way of how He works or not is beyond human comprehension.
One of those things that are best left a mystery.


In the Orthodox Church when priests go through seminary they are taught that when they are in the altar area of the church they are no longer on Chronos, but are on Kairos and therefore should not have watches and the like inside the altar area because watches keep track of Chronos. Only God keeps track of Kairos. When I was taught how to be an acolyte (or altar server, but I prefer acolyte) that was one of the things I was taught.

Kind of like God saying "Your on my time now".


Whenever God's time meets man's time is one of those cases of "only God knows..."

God is the Alpha and the Omega. How can one be affected by time when they are both the beginning and the end?

I did not know that about the watches -- that's interesting.

One of the Screwtape letters talks about time. The instruction from Screwtape to his nephew devil in training is whatever he does, he should keep his 'case' (the person he was supposed to be tempting) from living in the present moment.

It was best to keep him living in the past. If you couldn't accomplish that, you should keep him preoccupied with the future.

But no matter what, find a way from keeping him out of the present moment, for it is the only moment that touches eternity, and the only moment God works in.

Based on that, it would seem CS Lewis viewed our present moment as the intersection between chronos and kairos -- when God's time meets man's time.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

You're welcome. I presented it as an analogy. You see how God operates outside of spatial dimension beyond our capacity to understand, and from there you can hypothesize that He operates in a temporal state beyond our capacity.

Oh...gotcha.

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

interestingly enough, some accuse God of creating time with the first morning and evening. i tend to see this more as a bigger picture of a divine rythmic pattern wherein we creatures trapped in forward, linear time are given multiple opportunities to experience and see God through time oriented created things.

God speaks of himself as the "I Am." one who stands outside of time and who interacts with his creation from another dimension which is why we have such a hard time grasping and understanding God. it's like people who live in a two dimensional land being introduced to three dimensional objects. the best they could do to describe them would be to use terms like: "i think" "felt like" "looked like" etc;

go cards

 

[narnia59]

it's like people who live in a two dimensional land being introduced to three dimensional objects. the best they could do to describe them would be to use terms like: "i think" "felt like" "looked like" etc;

go cards

You must of watched the video.

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

what video?

go cards

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

ever heard of string theory?

go cards

 

[narnia59]

what video?

go cards

The one Mr. Polo put in the second post of this thread.

And yes to string theory.

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

oh, the ole dr. quantum in flatland vids. yeh, i've seen that. studied that stuff for a while. had to stop when my wife found me under my bed muttering the element charts.

go cards

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'd like to think that this thread is vastly different from that one as I am not questioning God's origin. I'm questioning whether or not we should say that God is outside of time.

This isn't to put a limit on God, rather I think it would be about considering time differently.

I was trying to find the hebrew words for the 2 greek words used for Time in the NT/NC.

I found the one the LXX uses #2450 and still looking for the other one #5550. This site showed up on a google search concerning Time used in the OT/OC....

Archaic Hebrew Thought on Time: How it Differs from our Thought & Understanding

(Rotherham) Genesis 17:21 But, my covenant, will I establish with Isaac,--whom Sarah shall bear, to thee, by this set time, in the next year.

LXX] Genesis 17:21 thn de diaqhkhn mou sthsw prov Isaak on tecetai soi Sarra eiv ton kairon #2450 touton en tw eniautw tw eterw

04150 mow`ed {mo-ade'} or mo`ed {mo-ade'} or (fem.) mow`adah
(2 Chr 8:13) {mo-aw-daw'} from 03259; TWOT - 878b; n m
AV - congregation 150, feast 23, season 13, appointed 12, time 12,
assembly 4, solemnity 4, solemn 2, days 1, sign 1, synagogues 1; 223