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God and his unknowable ways

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by hisgrace26, Dec 22, 2010.

  1. hisgrace26

    hisgrace26 Guest

    I often hear that God is all powerful and perfect, but shouldn't creation be perfect as well? That is a logical contradiction. How could an all perfect God made an imperfect world?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2011
  2. puregrl

    puregrl Senior Member

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    He made a perfect world, man messed it up. Not God.
     
  3. hisgrace26

    hisgrace26 Guest

    ...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2014
  4. Verticordious

    Verticordious Newbie

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    Perfect is a relative term, not an absolute term. Saying something is perfect requires some sort of context, just like saying something is tall? How tall is tall? It depends. For a professional basketball player, 6 feet is pretty short, but compared to the average woman 6 feet is tall. Being tall depends on a comparison, it is not an absolute attribute.

    Likewise, perfect depends on a comparison, a comparison between something and it's intended purpose. What is the perfect car? Well, for a college student it might be a cheap compact car with high gas mileage and low insurance costs to save money, but for a business corporation it might be an expensive luxury car to impress clients. It all depends on the purpose the car is intended to fulfill.

    Saying the world is perfect simply means that the world completely fulfills the purposes for which created it to fulfill, and it does. Just because you don't like certain things about the world doesn't mean the world doesn't fulfill the purposes God created it to fulfill. God did not create this world to be a paradise, he created it as a place for humans to make a choice to either accept him or reject him. Paradise comes later on, in Heaven, for those who trust God.
     
  5. hisgrace26

    hisgrace26 Guest

    When I talk about perfect, I'm not talking about the different degrees of perfection. We look at the world and we know it's not perfect.
     
  6. wayseer

    wayseer New Member

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    What makes you think this world is not perfect?

    I guess what I hearing from you is that the world should conform to your image of 'perfection'. And as the world does not live up to that image therefore there is some problem.

    For some reason God did not give us a feather duster ride through life. I don't really know why but there it is. Our challenge is to see God in the mundane things.
     
  7. hisgrace26

    hisgrace26 Guest

    Well duh look around you. That should tell you already.
    No it's not about conforming to my image. My main argument was why an perfect God made an imperfect world? Shouldn't it conform to His image? How do you as a believer in God reconcile this? So God is not perfect? Shouldn't creation be perfect in every aspect?
     
  8. hisgrace26

    hisgrace26 Guest

    Shouldn't a perfect God create all perfect possible worlds? How come not this one, but rather it have to be the next one?
     
  9. wayseer

    wayseer New Member

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    You miss the point.

    What is a 'perfect' world? One where everything is nice and rosy?

    What you are doing is placing your conditions on what sort of world we should live in. God has other ideas for whatever reason.

    If you want to start a discussion of how we might better live in this world that is another question.

    But you premise is that because you have been taught God is perfect your assume Creation is therefore perfect. There is little evidence to support that assumption.

    Maybe God is more like the army drill sergeant than a popsicle seller on a hot day.
     
  10. Julian of York

    Julian of York Newbie

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    Superman2010,
    Thank you for your question. I want to make a couple of observations:
    1)I notice that you have a "Christian" icon beside your name; and yet, you seem to have doubts about the Lord. You have questioned Him as the Creator, as well as speaking of Him as "a divine being".
    2)Has anyone ever discussed the depravity of man with you,man's total inability to overcome his sinful nature? In case they have not,here are a couple of verses regarding this aspect:
    "As it is written,there is none righteous,no,not one;there is none that understandeth,there is none that seeketh after God. Romans 3:10 & 11
    Where did "unrighteousness" (whatever is not right in God's sight) or "sin" come from?
    "Wherefore as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world,and (spiritual and physical)death by sin; and so death passed unto all men,in that all have sinned."Romans 5:12
    This is how that looks:
    A. God creates planet earth, which He says is "very good". (Genesis 1)
    B. Man is created and given the position of caretaker of God's world.
    C. Man is tempted and willingly rebels against God.
    D. Man's nature is changed. He "falls".
    E. The plague of sin encompasses every corner of the planet earth.
    F. Everyone (including you) is born with a depraved,sinful nature.
    G. The earth is placed under a curse. Even if you see a beautiful sunset, know that it will be soon night and ,unless you live in the wilderness, night brings out the dregs of society, seeking their own pleasure.If you see a rose, know that it will soon wilt. If you hear a beautiful waterfall, know that it is polluted.
    What could you expect in a world that God has cursed?
    Birth defects, war,famine,disease,innocent people murdered, children raped

    More Scriptures Available Upon Request!:thumbsup:

    Julian of York
    "For Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power; for Thou hast created all things,and for Thy pleasure they are and were created."Revelations 4:11
     
  11. good brother

    good brother Guest

    God did create a perfect world, He called it very good. It was OUR SIN that brought about the curse, not God's fault. That would be like blaming the oven for you burning the cookies, or blaming the door for the goose egg on your head because you failed to open it, or blaming a fridge for not keeping your milk cold when you left it out on the counter. You see, there is nothing wrong with the oven, door or fridge in the way they were designed, but because or our foolishness its not how it should be. God made it perfect, we screwed it all up.


    In Christ, GB
     
  12. papakapp

    papakapp a waterdrop going over niagra falls

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    I agree with you. I think our common answers to that question are way off. They typical answer usually concludes with either "God couldn't stop sin from entering the world" or else "God chose not to stop sin from entering the world." Both are pathetic imho.

    However, your question touches on an interesting argument for God. The argument for God from evil. (or use the word imperfect for evil, ans you put it)

    1) Evil exists
    1a now we have to define evil. The only definition I know is Evil a deviation from the way things ought to be.
    Now from this definition we can make one of two choices, either we accept it, and then we accept there is a way things ought to be, or we reject the word ought and substitute the word expedient.
    If we reject the word ought, then we have defined evil in a way that makes no moral judgment, and we have defeated any form of the postulate "either God is not all loving or God is not all powerful since evil exists" since we have defined evil such that it is neither moral nor immoral.
    If we accept the word ought then we accept that there is a universal way things ought to be. The only grounds for a universal moral absolute is if God decreed it.

    So there ya go, it is either an argument for God from evil, or else a defeater for the loving God/evil exists question.

    So then do we have anything left that has not been logically ruled out? Perhaps the existence of evil somehow results in more glory for God than if evil had never existed. If that is true, and if God is good, then it must be true that the glory of God is more valuable than human life.

    Personally, I believe that is exactly what the book of Job teaches. Satan accused Job of only loving God because God gave Job good things. But God responded by letting Satan try to prove his accusation by bringing evil into Job's live. It turns out God was right, and Job still praised God even during the evil. That gave God more glory, it proved Satan was a liar, and in the end it even resulted in more glory for Job too.

    Over and over again in the New Testament, it teaches that we will have trouble in this life but it will result in something good. Far too often people think their trouble should stop somewhere around the level of "minor inconvenience"
     
  13. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Moderator Supporter

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    Tree of Knowledge was put in the garden by God, who is omniscient. Yes or No?

    God created a perfect world, with two nearly perfect (gullible) humans with the potential for all of creation to become imperfect. This is how I see it.
     
  14. hisgrace26

    hisgrace26 Guest

    That's like saying the number 2 is 2, but it doesn't have to be less than 3 unless it wants to.
     
  15. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid The old "E"-commerce... mon6y, s6x, & pow6r !!!

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    Maybe we also need to ask, 'What can BE perfect'? Do we even have a clear notion of what perfection is or possibly could be in reality. I think we don't.
     
  16. A_maize

    A_maize Newbie

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    Well, how do we know that this world is not perfect for Gods objective?
     
  17. wayseer

    wayseer New Member

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    I think that is the important issue. It is not easily answered and some of those answers throw up a whole heap of other questions. The challenge is, as Christians, we live that Christlike life in the midst of the messiness and confusion with which we are at times surrounded.
     
  18. miamited

    miamited Ted

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    Hi Superman,

    I'm sure you are, but, yea, Julian asks a very valid question. How is it that someone who posts a 'christian' icon with his name, argues the omniscience and power and glory of God? How is it that a person who claims to have found the 'truth' that Jesus said would set us free can't even understand something as simple as sin? I gotta say, and I don't mean to hurt your feelings, but you appear to be a liar. Your questions, no let me use a better word, your accusations would seem to infer that you don't have any faith in God nor any knowledge of Him.

    God bless you and may you enjoy a HH since you probably have no reason to believe that this day of celebration is about remembering the birth of our Savior.
    In Christ, Ted
     
  19. beforHim

    beforHim Apologetical

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    I think wayseer made a good point- does perfection mean "no gratuitous suffering"?
     
  20. Verticordious

    Verticordious Newbie

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    You have no idea what you're talking about.

    A relative description is something that requires comparing one entity to another, such as tall. A person can be both tall and short at the same time by being compared against different things. I'm tall compared to the average woman, but short compared to the average professional basketball player. You have to compare my height to something in order to determine whether I am tall or not.

    An absolute description is something that does not require comparing one entity to another, such as color. I don't need to compare grass to anything else to determine that it is green, and I don't need compare my shirt to anything else to determine that it is white.

    Perfect is a relative term because something being perfect depends on what role that something is intended to fulfill. God created the universe so the role of the universe is decided by God, not you. Just because you think God should have created the universe differently does not mean he thinks he should have done things differently. The universe is exactly how God wanted it to be, and thus it is perfect.
     
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