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Glenn Morton has left the building

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by USincognito, Nov 7, 2012.

  1. HitchSlap

    HitchSlap Saved by science

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    Considering the fact that evangelical Christian denominations consider Mormonism to be a cult, they should be dancing in the streets that a self professing Christian won the election.
     
  2. verysincere

    verysincere Exegete/Linguist

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    I'm baffled by this post. First it says that "believers are forced...into hiding like the catacombs of Rome." But then the next sentence it says that such persecution is future. Which is it?

    Please provide even ONE example of some religious group forced into "catacombs". I've been an ordained minister and Bible professor for a lifetime and have only personally seen this during a few international travels. Never in North America.

    But I'm always interested in evidence. (Or is somebody just blowing smoke?)
     
  3. RickG

    RickG Senior Veteran

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    Dad, I am a former public school teacher with a number of years experience in several school systems. There is no subject material in the school systems that teach lies or ungodly things. And quite honestly, I have never met an educator in the public school system who did not believe in God.

    Yes they can. There are also Christian student organizations that are allowed to meet on school grounds before and after school. During the morning announcements there is a minute set aside for what is termed as "quite reflections". During this time the soft whispering of the Lords Prayer can be heard. All football games are preceded with a prayer presented by one of the local Christian pastors over the PA system. Concert bands play selected pieces of religiously oriented music on concerts. I have attended many teacher meetings where they are opened with a prayer.

    I dare say that religion is probably more present in the public school system now than when it was unimpeded. :thumbsup:
     
  4. Jamin4422

    Jamin4422 Member

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    The bottom line is that the Muslims have more money then the Mormon Church. It is well known to science how effective the advertisements are.
     
  5. Jamin4422

    Jamin4422 Member

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    If you need evidence then maybe you need to look in a mirror.
     
  6. dad

    dad Undefeated

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    Both. Times will get worse and worse which you should know if you were a bible professor.

    Any parent that thinks that spoiling the rod spoils the child? Any teacher that might want to tell their kids that certain lifestyles are wicked and wrong? Etc etc.

    By the way, in referring to catacombs I mean underground or secretive about things..not actually living in tunnels.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
  7. dad

    dad Undefeated

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    Yes, almost all of it! Evolution...godless history..vile music, sex education, etc etc.
    That's nice.

    In the US maybe. But we never cease to hear of stories like these

    "In Orange County, California, it is illegal to hold a religious meeting in your home.

    This is what Chuck and Stephanie Fromm, of San Juan Capistrano, discovered when they were fined $300 earlier this month for holding a Bible study class on their property.

    Officialdom in the county said the couple were singled out because it is considered illegal to hold “a regular gathering of more than three people” on private property. Officials stated that the Fromms require a license to hold meetings in their home.

    San Juan Capistrano authorities claim home Bible study is not allowed because it is a “church,” and churches require a Conditional Use Permit (CUP) in residential areas.

    The Fromms face additional fines of $500 per meeting for any further “religious gatherings” in their home, according to the Pacific Justice Institute."
    Home bible studies illegal in America


    "| Arizona Pastor Michael Salman is currently serving a 60-day jail sentence for hosting bible study classes in his Phoenix home. The suburban residence was “raided” earlier this week by more than a dozen police officers because the city maintains the religious meetings were in violation of local zoning laws. Salman was arrested and sentenced to serve 60 days in jail, received a $12,180 fine and was placed on three years probation for sitting around his living room and sharing his faith with others. Fox News reports."

    Pastor Jailed For 60 Days After Hosting Bible Study Classes In His Home



    Dad arrested after protesting ‘gay’ book

    "
    A Christian street preacher was arrested and locked in a cell for telling a passer-by that ****sexuality is a sin in the eyes of God."

    Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin - Telegraph

    "
    Parents are demanding the return of Christmas at a school where the nativity play has been cancelled in favour of a "seasonal celebration" of four faiths.

    They say Christianity is at the bottom of a pile of religions in the multi-faith approach followed by the school, which does not even list Easter in its calendar."


    There is no room for Christmas at multi-faith school - Telegraph

    etc etc etc etc...


    Like an uninvited guest they can't keep out.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
  8. dad

    dad Undefeated

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    How about for circumcising their kids?

    "
    WILLIS -- School officials were silent Tuesday about a federal lawsuit filed on behalf of three pupils, accusing the Willis school district of refusing to allow children to carry or read the Bible.
    The lawsuit, filed in Houston, alleges that a teacher at Lynn Lucas Middle School pulled two sisters from class after discovering that they were carrying Bibles and threatened to have them picked up by child-welfare authorities.
    Another teacher told a pupil he was not allowed to read the Bible during free reading time and forced him to put it away, the lawsuit alleges. The boy also was required to remove a Ten Commandments book cover from another book, the lawsuit states."


    Houston School Officials Call Bible 'Garbage'


    "It’s that time of day in Old Bridge, New Jersey, when Madison Park Elementary’s 3rd grade students are to sit quietly and read to themselves. But when Mariah Jordat decided to take out her Bible and read, her teacher ordered her to put it away . . . Not in her desk. In her backpack, to return home for good.

    The teacher called the Bible “inappropriate” reading material for school."

    BIBLE BANNED IN N.J. CLASSROOM Teacher Calls It “Inappropriate” for Quiet Time (Alan Reinach is in Pacific Time)
    In many states and countries, the parent has no say actually

    "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]California
    You do not need parent permission to have an abortion"

    Teen Abortion Laws In The United States
    [/FONT]
    If a believer cites biblical principles in public they will be in jail. Period.
     
  9. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

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    I think I have heard of some states considering a ban on the practice. Not sure where that stands right now. In this case, it can be a physical threat to the child. This is more about risk than religion.

    And why do you think a lawsuit was filed? From your own source:

    "The lawsuit accuses the school district of violating the pupils' constitutional right to free speech and violating the Constitution's establishment clause, which prohibits excessive government entanglement with religion."

    Obviously, it is not illegal to take a Bible to school. If the allegations are true, that teacher may very well lose her job and possible her career.

    And the teacher is wrong. It is not inappropriate for students to read the Bible during class if the class time is opened up for free reading. It is not illegal for a student to read a Bible at school.

    [/FONT]

    That is not what you said. You said:

    "Can parents not allow their brainwashed daughter to not kill her child?"

    An abortion is not killing a child. Women under the age of 18 are allowed to get abortions without consent because incest can be involved.

    Completely false.
     
  10. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

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    Right, they were fined for having a gathering, not a bible study. It had nothing to do with the religious content of the meeting.

    He was arrested for trespassing after he refused to leave.

    "According to the report, Parker refused to leave a meeting after Lexington Superintendent Bill Hurley rejected his request that he be notified when his son is exposed to any discussion about same-sex households as part of classroom instruction.

    Police arrested Parker for trespassing and he spent a night in jail before posting a $1,000 personal surety, Boston’s WCVB-TV reported."

    He was being disruptive. That's why he got arrested.

    That was in the UK where they don't have the same constitutional protections that we have in the US. They are trying to curb hate speech in the UK, and that is what this preacher got caught up in.
    Parents are demanding the return of Christmas at a school where the nativity play has been cancelled in favour of a "seasonal celebration" of four faiths.

    Nowhere does the law state that people must hold your religious beliefs in high esteem. It only says that you are free to practice your religious beliefs.

    That's in the UK.
     
  11. Naraoia

    Naraoia Apprentice Biologist

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    I agree that attacking religion is counterproductive, but I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the last paragraph. It kind of sounds like you're saying that evidence for an old earth is an argument questioning religious beliefs? We have a history of talking past each other, so I'm pretty sure I'm missing something here. :scratch:

    Also, what do you do when deeply held religious beliefs are almost inseparably intertwined with the misrepresentations of science? E.g. you may be pointing out how YEC resources get the science of radiometric dating wrong, but a YEC reading your words may well perceive this as an attack against their literalist belief.

    I was willing to listen to him about the anti-religion thing, but then it just started getting weird. I gave up after he called Sandra Fluck something the profanity filter won't let me type out over including contraception in health insurance plans. While the free contraception issue might be ethically tricky with religious organisations, calling her derogatory names and assuming all kinds of things about her sex life because of one stance she took is nothing but blind prejudice. (Not to mention not being terribly tolerant of "dissent")

    Also, having witnessed much of his global warming debate with thaumaturgy, I find this particular paragraph very telling:
    This man has been a practicing scientist for decades. Right, in industry and not academia, but he must have seen some scientific debate. He must have seen how difficult it can be to get scientists to agree on anything. When there is such overwhelming consensus on an issue that started out as controversial, there is a reason. To me, the above just sounds like he's got a chip on his shoulder because his pet hypothesis isn't taken seriously. Quoting a Daily Fail article about one stupid thing one professor may or may not have really said doesn't help his case.

    What can I say. I like Morton's Demon and IIRC he had some neat resources on his site... but tantrums like this make me not miss his contribution as much as I might otherwise have.
     
  12. dad

    dad Undefeated

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    If God told them it was OK, nothing else is needed. Those that don't like it are overruled.

    "Jewish and Muslim organisations have staged a joint protest in the German capital Berlin over a regional court's ruling that the circumcision of young boys constituted bodily harm."

    BBC News - Germany Jews and Muslims protest at circumcision ruling

    Better to violate a child's right who doesn't like it than to force kids to be violated for loving God in my opinion. Otherwise the only option is to have Christians start really acting like they are in enemy territory, and vote with their feet, etc. Shut it down for all I care. The whole pagan school system, and the country! Better to have some brands (maybe states?) snatched from the fire than to have the whole system/country go to hell in a handbasket.
    The foxes are guarding the hen house apparently. The clear trend has been toward a slide to darkness, antichrist spirit, and depravity and oppression. With leaders at the top fomenting this ungodly stuff, the process can only speed up exponentially. Obamafication.

    Christians are to preach the gospel. That is part of being one. That is not allowed in school or hardly anywhere else like government, etc. Whether some kid could conceal a bible and not get arrested because he never pulled it out is silly.

    Yes it is. But I think that is not allowed to be discussed here.
    Depends on the state/country. Basically the parent is sidelined totally in many places and the trend is that way more and more.

    No, true. If someone goes on TV or school property or the white house, or etc etc and preaches against Sodom marriages, evolution, killing babies, and advocates spanking kids, and etc, they will be in deep doo doo.
     
  13. CabVet

    CabVet Question everything

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    Is Pat Robertson in "deep doo doo"? When was the date of his arrest? Did I miss that?

    Here are some of his preachings on TV:

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

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    That leads to people flying airplanes into buildings.
    That's not the US.

    I think we can both agree that foreign governments are less friendly to christians. For example, you can be put in prison for openly evangelizing in China. I am sure that christians are severely persecuted in some Muslim countries (and just the opposite in some Western countries).

    The pagan school system? What little credibility you had is gone now.

    Obama is a christian, or were you unaware of that?

    It is not illegal in the US for students to read the Bible at school. Period. They are not getting arrested for reading the Bible. You can cry wolf all you want, but we can see right through it.
     
  15. dad

    dad Undefeated

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    Perhaps he has good lawyers and his wacko opinions are tolerated because they include weird assassinations? :)
     
  16. serge546

    serge546 Master of microbes

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    Yes, they can. She might lose her job because that is part of the curriculum required by state law, though. The curriculum is designed to be secular, like the constitution says it should. My child should not have to lag behind in science just because you raised yours to be insecure in their religious beliefs.

    Yep, they can, actually. I read some of the Bible in high school as a historical document, not a religious one. I had no problem with it, and that's coming from one of the few atheists/agnostics here that truly dislike religion.


    Yup, they can.

    Yup. When I went to the University of Texas-Austin we had a crazy giving a fire and brimstone speech almost every day outside the science building. I found him amusing but respected his right to preach about it publicly.

    Doesn't seem to be working, lots of religious pedophiles out there. Try harder to do so, for all of us.

    One of the most heavily trafficked streets in my town is full of churches. These churches are right in front of the street, also, not hidden behind some other buildings. They are beautiful buildings and I have no problem with them. Again, this is from one of the more anti-religious persons in this forum.


    Only in your crazy mind, freedom of religion is very much alive. Funny thing about the U.S. is that republicans believe the constitution is inerrant and should be followed unquestionably... until it comes to separation of church and state.

    Then leave. I'll even pay for your plane ticket. No one wants a traitor in our country.
     
  17. dad

    dad Undefeated

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    Scripture and verse? We are not talking about non founding beliefs here are we? If so we can start with atheism and science so called. They whacked em by the cities full, literally. A Christian martyr lays down his life to save as many as possible. Those that are suicide bombers lay down their life to kill as many as possible. Big difference!

    So? Does TV and movies and Obama speeches get limited to the US??

    The trend ic clear and insidious and irreversible.


    Right, the Satanic godless school system.


    His policies are not are you aware of that? This isn't personal (unless the guy sets up an abomination on the temple mount or something)


    "
    EDMONTON, Alberta, February 23, 2012 (LifeSiteNews.com) – Under Alberta’s new Education Act, homeschoolers and faith-based schools will not be permitted to teach that ****sexual acts are sinful as part of their academic program, says the spokesperson for Education Minister Thomas Lukaszuk.
    “Whatever the nature of schooling – homeschool, private school, Catholic school – we do not tolerate disrespect for differences,” Donna McColl, Lukaszuk’s assistant director of communications, told LifeSiteNews on Wednesday evening."


    LifeSiteNews Mobile | Homeschooling families can’t teach homosexual acts sinful in class says Alberta gvmt

    "
    ¶ At Pace High School near Pensacola, Fla., teachers cited the Bible as fact in class and one teacher preached to students with a bullhorn as they arrived at school. In litigation that ended in July, the Santa Rosa County district agreed to stop promotion of religion but said that teachers could pray in private settings and could use expressions like “God bless you.”
    ¶ In Sumner County, Tenn., teachers led students in prayer and Bible study, and allowed Gideons International to distribute Bibles during school hours. Officials agreed this month to end the practices.
    ¶ In Baltimore, under threat of a lawsuit last spring, district officials stopped a school principal from holding prayer services to help students prepare for a standardized test.
    “We continue to see, on a regular basis across the country, public school officials who include prayer in school events, try to convert students and engage in other promotion of religion,” said Heather Weaver, a lawyer with the A.C.L.U.’s program on religious freedom.
    “In recent years, public school officials have engaged in these activities even more aggressively,” Ms. Weaver added.
    Christian legal advocates counter that such plain violations are far less common than the opposite problem: overzealous officials trying to cleanse the schools of religion, punishing students for protected speech like personal prayer or handing out devotional messages to their friends.
    “The free-speech rights of students and teachers are under an all-out assault,” said Kelly Shackelford, president of the Liberty Institute, a Christian legal group in Plano, Tex. He described one continuing legal case in which “children had pencils ripped out of their hands” because they carried a Christian message and students were “banned from writing Merry Christmas to the soldiers.”
    Despite such disputes, legal religious expression is more present in schools now than it has been for decades, said Charles Haynes, a senior scholar at the First Amendment Center in Washington who advises school districts and helped develop teacher guidelines that are consistent with the law. It has been firmly established, he said, that students may pray if it is not disruptive, and can share their faith with other students. Teachers may pray with other teachers outside of class, though not in front of students during school hours.
    But gray areas persist and dozens of bitter disputes erupt every year over the propriety of student prayers at graduations and football games (usually ruled illegal if given over a loudspeaker to a captive audience) or whether children can hand out written prayers at a Christmas party (permissible in theory, some experts say, but courts have allowed school officials to make judgments based on the circumstances).
    Watchdog groups like the A.C.L.U., Americans United for Separation of Church and State and the Freedom From Religion Foundation say that in the last few years, they have learned more often about what they call blatant violations like the South Carolina rally. It is unclear, they say, whether the number of such events is growing, or whether they are now more likely to come to light. But still, these advocates say, even when clear violations occur, concerned families are often reluctant to bring legal challenges because they fear social hostility.
    The September prayer rally at New Heights Middle School in Jefferson had deep support in the community. With a population of 47,000, Chesterfield County supports at least 200 Christian churches, according to Paul Wood Jr., pastor of the First United Methodist Church in Cheraw, S.C.
    “There’s not a lot of religious diversity here, so it becomes hard for people to believe that everybody isn’t a Christian,” said Mr. Wood, who was perhaps the only pastor in the county to publicly question the rally.
    The students were addressed by Christian Chapman of Charlotte, N.C., who describes himself as a “traveling evangelist” and often speaks at schools, he said in an interview.
    “I definitely think that we should try to get our relationship with Christ back into the schools,” said Mr. Chapman, 43. “Jesus represents everything we want our students to live by.”
    For non-Christians to hear this message, he said, is no worse than Bible believers being forced to hear about evolution every day."


    Battling Anew Over the Place of Religion in Public Schools - NYTimes.com
     
  18. CabVet

    CabVet Question everything

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    Oh, and exactly why are his opinions "wacko"? They are exactly the same as yours:

    But my question is not even about his opinions, I could care less if they are right or wrong (on the context of this thread). What I want to point out is that there is no Christian "persecution" as you keep claiming. If there was, Pat (and many others) would be in jail somewhere by now.
     
  19. CabVet

    CabVet Question everything

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    Good for them. Similarly, schools should not teach that women that don't dress like this are sinners:

    [​IMG]

    Things like that should be taught in a religious setting, you know, Churches, Synagogues, Mosques, there are many of those around.
     
  20. dad

    dad Undefeated

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    Then never the two should mingle.
    In other words it cannot be read for what it is. And even your exceptions are small compared to the barrage of other gods set up and promoted nonstop in the sewers of education so called. But hey that is just my opinion:)

    Good thing you were not in a kill clinic.
    True.

    OK. I don't go to church so that doesn't do much for me.



    Maybe folks living in the US are under some illusion of freedom. Not my problem.


    A country that is traitor to God and oppresses kids is what ought to go away.