GK Chesterton 101

rusmeister

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The discussion of the halls and denominations is in the second column of page 8 of Mere Christianity. Lewis does discuss the importance of choosing a denomination with sound doctrine. He is accepting of denominations (understandable in this imperfect world). His primary goal is bring folks to Christ, not helping them choose which Church is the one true Church.
Thanks, Mark. This is my point, and this, when exposed, is the one thing the Orthodox Christian cannot accept. There is no such thing as "Christ without the Church". Bringing folks to Christ means bringing them to the Church. We have no idea who is being "brought to Christ" outside of the Church.

That is what I am saying is his one failure in an otherwise amazing evangelical effort.
 
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MKJ

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Thanks, MKJ,

I do agree with what you say on getting something real
out of Christianity (at large), and think it a good thing.


This is my point. This IS what I am saying. From an Orthodox perspective, the Church is absolutely essential. Not somewhat essential, or sort of essential, but absolutely essential as in 'cannot be omitted'.
But Lewis's de facto approach - perhaps not his opinion, but I am speaking to his missionary approach, not his private beliefs that he deliberately hid from us - for his own reasons, which he felt to be the good he was doing by avoiding the issue of the Church is indeed that it doesn't matter which church or Church you fall into.

There IS a level of truth in this, on the order of paganism - if a person is truly seeking God, he may well be saved outside the Church (not going into the corollary that being in the Church is not a guaranteed ticket on its own, either), but as soon as one says "Where can I learn about this Christ?" we can offer only one answer, and silence on the issue is "criminal". It is a great wrong.
So I admire the heck (heaven?) out of Lewis; one of the greatest thinkers of our time that truly loved God, but in this one thing he necessarily crosses foils with Orthodoxy by omission. That's why everybody loves him - he appears to offend no one. he was right about that. But what he avoided is just as important to us as what he did open his mouth about. I read and enjoy him immensely, but that characteristic of him sticks out - it was a deliberate sin of omission based on his reason.

Chesterton did not do this. Chesterton realized that the Church - which is it and where it is - is critically important. That's why I consider Chesterton's error the more forgiveable of the two. he did the best he could with what he had. The one thing I think Lewis can be criticized for would not be such criticism if he had honestly promoted the Anglican Church. He could have said exactly what he said everywhere else and not diminished his accessibility by also answering and writing on why he felt the Anglican Church was it (hey, I might have become Anglican instead of Orthodox - he was the first influence on me.), although the changes the Anglican Church has undergone since his time would make it significantly less likely to the external observer that he was right.

So some people wouldn't have read him. They would have said, "Oh, he's just an Anglican apologist." The problem would be in them, and not in him.

So did he do good? - yeah, I think so. Did the good hinge entirely on his avoiding the issue of the Church? Here I don't think so.

Chesterton does require more brains to get the most out of him. It requires remembering what he said in a previous paragraph, and some things you can only get by learning what he is referring to - and that's an entire education in itself. I have learned quite a bit about a great number of topics, and it has changed how I view a number of things. So to a great extent "accessibility" is a matter of having a little patience while reading and doing a little research - now made easier than ever. And the effort is worth it. He stood head and shoulders even above Lewis, and I can see that now. And people do find some of his works directly "accessible" - it would be difficult to explain the popularity of "Orthodoxy" or "The Man who was Thursday" if that were not so.

I have a few problems with what you are saying here.

1) I don't think Chesterton is just more difficult than Lewis - I think he is simply inaccesible to many people. That is ok - I don't think he was meaning to directly appeal to everybody or every situation, and I wouldn't insist that he did. A great many people are not bookish, and frankly they should not have to be to be Christians. Some people struggle with reading. Many people have little time for it, or are so tired when they are done with work and family that they can't concentrate on serious reading.

A lot more people could read serious literature, but there are a substantial number that really could not, or not in their present circumstances.

2) Not trying to argue for a particular church is not the same as saying one does not need it. It is not even saying that one can come to Christ without the Church.

As an example, my children have a number of Christian books about Bible stories, or Christian parables, or other Christian stories. In most of them the author belongs to a particular groups, some Protestant, some Catholic, and even some Orthodox. None of them push a particular group though, and in most cases it would be difficult to tell from the text. No one would say the author was somehow obliged to do this, or even write other books that do.

No writer has to supply everything for a person's journey to God. Lewis is up from in saying he is not able to do that, and outlining just what he is looking to do. He doesn't hide that he is an Anglican, and it is discernible in his writings if you know - what he says is not as applicable to Calvinists for example.

I have to ask - do you feel all people should remain silent unless they are willing and able to make the "whole" argument? If they have some talent for introducing people to the essential concepts, do you not think God can provide the next step when they are ready? Maybe once they have read some Lewis and digested it, they will be ready for Chesterton.

3) Any person who becomes a Christian, even totally alone, is in a sense doing so through the Church. Whatever one's view of the Church is, that is the case. In that sense to say he is trying to make them Christians apart from the Church doesn't make sense.

4) I think to some extent you are taking him out of his local context. Lewis was not an American having to choose between a lot of denominations. Even today in England there is a real sense in which for many people the Church of England is simply the "local" church, and that was even more so the case in Lewis' day. Lewis talks a bit in various places about the idea of the local church, and it is a concept which I think in it's way is as compelling as Chesterton's Catholicism. It is, after all, how the Church ideally is supposed to work - in an undivided Christian world we would simply attend the most local congregation, without setting ourselves up to judge the members, or the clergy, or the worship style, or the decorations. That kind of Christianity is in a sense very orthodox. (I might suggest too that part of the reason Lewis accepted that way of thinking, while Chesterton did not, is because Chesterton was a bit more of a jerk and more likely to assert his own particular views on the congregation he joined. I can't help but wonder if he would have been convinced of Catholicism as much if he had had to attend a modern NO mass:).)
 
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rusmeister

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I have a few problems with what you are saying here.

1) I don't think Chesterton is just more difficult than Lewis - I think he is simply inaccesible to many people. That is ok - I don't think he was meaning to directly appeal to everybody or every situation, and I wouldn't insist that he did. A great many people are not bookish, and frankly they should not have to be to be Christians. Some people struggle with reading. Many people have little time for it, or are so tired when they are done with work and family that they can't concentrate on serious reading.

A lot more people could read serious literature, but there are a substantial number that really could not, or not in their present circumstances.

...
...while Chesterton did not, is because Chesterton was a bit more of a jerk and more likely to assert his own particular views on the congregation he joined. I can't help but wonder if he would have been convinced of Catholicism as much if he had had to attend a modern NO mass:).)

Hi, MK!
I'd start by asking for clarification on what is meant by "inaccessible". A literal understanding of the word translates to - it is impossible to reach him". I cannot see how a literate man or woman could possibly claim that.
I CAN (and did!) see that people have to think more and harder when they read Chesterton. The first few books of his I read at a snail's pace, scratching my head and working out what he meant. But this is because I myself - and all of us as a people - have been largely taught to think less. Thinking is a harder exercise for us, and I have said why. It is emphatically not our personal fault - unless/until we discover that we ought to make the effort and refuse to - and I have said how this came to be.

Next, when we read something, we either understand it, or do not. We can understand it to be nonsense, or sense. But if we do NOT understand it, it does not follow from that that it is nonsense. The second-grader does not understand Shakespeare or Einstein - but the fault does not lie in those geniuses, but in the second-grader. But that imperfect analogy does not completely apply to the adult, for he need not wait ten years to understand it - he can begin learning and trying to understand now. At the very least he can ask, "Why do you say this strange thing that I do not understand?" instead of taking the position that he does understand it and dismisses it as nonsense when in fact he simply does not understand it. The failure of making sense is then on his part.

Chesterton was a journalist - an internationally famous journalist, in his own time. That fact must be considered. A journalist, by definition, must be read by a large enough number of people to justify his circulation; he cannot write elitest books for a minority who can grasp him and achieve such broad fame and popularity. People flocked to his debates and lectures in large numbers - and he himself was subsequently reported on. The Pope met with him. And so on. The point is, he was read by a large number of people, not only by an intellectual elite. (This is where I recommend reading Masie Ward's biography).

That we now (including myself, when I first began to read him) have difficulty at first indicates that we have become literally less used to any reading that challenges us to think. When an intelligent person realizes this, they should accept the challenge to think, and discern/discover truth. A person may choose not to do so. But they cannot be considered intelligent in doing so. That a mass of ordinary people COULD read and understand Chesterton indicates that he was, indeed, "accessible". But I think the very word does him injustice, for it makes the fault appear to lie in him, when the weakness is OURS, and the appropriate adjective should be used to describe US, not him. It is we who are (insert descriptive adjective) for finding Chesterton difficult. Nor do I say a person must be literate in order to be a Christian, let alone "bookish". They can be Christian, humble, and silent and be quite godly. But I do say that they should, if they want to talk intelligently on intelligent things, be willing to think seriously and at length, and this can be via listening or reading. It is when they say something, strive to teach or preach, that they must extend themselves to that mental activity, which, if it is on something deep and complex, cannot be limited to the short posts that most here prefer. Although Chesterton is "accessible" even to those attention spans (something we shouldn't be proud of or think normal or good) - his aphorisms, quotations number in the hundreds and thousands.

"We have learned to do a great many things. The next great task is to learn not to do them."

How is that either inaccessible or being a jerk? It says something is true, is full of common sense, and everyone who has that quality - something that is educated out of men without chests - can see that that is so.

When you say "people cannot read serious literature", that is tantamount to say that people are incapable of serious thought, for the one is the written expression of the other. In short, I completely deny the claim. That they might have gotten unused to it I readily grant. But it is now only a matter of being unwilling, not unable. Anyone who wishes to strive for intelligence should be willing to try to flex their muscles and do the mental exercise. The trouble in our time is in wanting to pretend to intelligence without doing so.

When you say "Chesterton was a jerk..." I think I understand why you might think so - and I would interpret it as shock at his really and seriously thinking himself to be right about something, and saying so - and why. I do the same thing, and so, probably, am also "a jerk". This is proved when you say "his views". He thought about the idea of views long before you and I were born, and spoke on it, and better than you or I could - or at least do.

At any street corner we may meet a man who utters the frantic and blasphemous statement that he may be wrong. Every day one comes across somebody who says that of course his view may not be the right one. Of course his view must be the right one, or it is not his view. We are on the road to producing a race of men too mentally modest to believe in the multiplication table. We are in danger of seeing philosophers who doubt the law of gravity as being a mere fancy of their own. Scoffers of old time were too proud to be convinced; but these are too humble to be convinced. The meek do inherit the earth; but the modern sceptics are too meek even to claim their inheritance. It is exactly this intellectual helplessness which is our second problem.
Is this, too, "inaccessible" or difficult to understand? I believe it is surprising and perhaps shocking to a people who have been trained, rather carefully, to think in terms of one's views being merely personal. But it cannot be difficult to understand and is obviously true about the philosophy of our time.

In any event, the posting and message-forum format is inimical to real thinking and examination of complex ideas. Some here have (falsely) accused Chesterton of excess verbosity. So might I accuse any academic at a university who is laying out a complex scheme and ideas. Belloc defended GKC against that charge wonderfully in his "On the Place of Gilbert Chesterton in English Letters", as good a synopsis of GKC as any - and better than the others.

If any complex truth can possibly be expressed at all, we must expect it to not simultaneously be simple, nor to be reduced to a one-sentence or paragraph statement that can also satisfy and meet criticism.
People frequently charge Chesterton with arrogance. And yet the irony is that they themselves do not have the humility to admit that they have not thought deeply on a topic; that all of their thought hitherto may have been quite superficial. And his broad humility in regard to himself disproves the charge completely. he thinks himself to be very unimportant, even as he thinks his ideas important.

Lewis is another matter, requiring another post...
 
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rusmeister

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The idea that Chesterton is "inaccessible" is simply nonsense. Even teenagers are capable of understanding him; I saw a blog called "Chesterteens".

Yes, at first it can seem like a challenge ( and did to me!). The reward comes in understanding. Shakespeare is difficult and his language can be more confusing than Chesterton's. But we don't say that Shakespeare is therefore "inaccessible" and we have this strange idea that Shakespeare ought to be taught in school. For a Christian to say that Chesterton is irrelevant and need not be taken seriously is just as absurd as to say something of the sort about Shakespeare. And even more foolish as a form of self-deprivation.

Not a book reader? Get an audiobook and listen!

What other excuses can people come up with?

There are Chesterton societies around the world - active things with regular meetings. Unlike a lot of societies dedicated to studying the works of one man, they show a tendency to grow. In America alone, there are dozens of official societies and I don't know how many hundreds or thousands of formal members. It is very difficult to try to ascribe this to a few cranks or say that intelligent people need not take these ideas seriously. Nearly every Christian that does joins the ranks of admirers.

When was the last time you read an epic poem? Chesterton wrote one of the last epic poems of the modern age: "Ballad of the White Horse".

An intelligent defense of the faith that beats the rationalists on their own grounds? "Orthodoxy" and "The Everlasting Man".

A good, intelligent murder mystery? The "Father Brown" stories.

And so on.

For the people that still want to bust on him, deny him and paint him as merely a creature of his time (something that truly amazes me; he is so incredibly Orthodox and completely on our side, the side of the common man and against the intellectual snob), I would offer Hilaire Belloc's poetic defense, or rather, counter-attack:

Hilaire Belloc - ACS Season III - YouTube

Relevant part starts at 1:25, but the first part is worth watching, too. It was what he actually said that got him elected.

(FTR, "a don" means a professor)

Anyway, when you DO discover Chesterton, you're in for a treat - and you'll wish you had discovered him earlier.
 
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rusmeister

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Can't I just to go a bookstore if I want to read about this guy? Why on this board every five minutes?

Hi, Mariya!
The same thing could be said about the Gospels. We could just tell anyone who asks to go to a bookstore.
But for some reason, we have this curious idea that there are vital things that ought to be shared with everyone.
Are the things to be shared true? Just? Honest? Pure? Lovely? Of good report? If there be any virtue, if there be any praise, think on these things!
Phil 4:8
Sounds like something we're supposed to do...

And I don't think stuff about "this guy" is posted every five minutes, or every day, and usually not even every week.

There are people who have discovered Chesterton. They recognize his amazing genius, how he points to the Cross and answers - the way we OUGHT to answer - the "raging of the heathen". Some people haven't been fortunate enough to have discovered him yet, even if they have read a little of him. It is true that we don't need him for our salvation. The world got along for 1,900 years after Christ without him. But if anyone were proud to not know him, it'd be a little like being proud that you don't understand any Greek or Latin, and is pretty much exactly like complaining about people talking about a given desert father.
If someone were thoroughly familiar with St Anthony the Great or Met Anthony of Sourozh, I'd think it cool if they posted about them weekly. It might offer me something to learn that I had never thought of. One thing I sure wouldn't do is complain about being offered Christian wisdom.
 
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Mariya116

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Bumping this.

I'd recommend reading the first posts in the thread, pass over the nay-saying, and find the gems in the quotes and links!
:)

I especially want to promote "The Superstition of Divorce"; might open up a separate thread on that and its relevance to everything else marriage-related.

http://www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/books/divorce.txt
Thanks for the suggestion - it'll be my first book after I finish St. Francis of Assisi - put together the great saint and the great writer, and that is I have a sublime reading experience.

If "The Superstition of Divorce" condemns divorce - it's next on my reading list. I'm a child of divorce, and I hate and despise the nasty D word.
 
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rusmeister

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Thanks for the suggestion - it'll be my first book after I finish St. Francis of Assisi - put together the great saint and the great writer, and that is I have a sublime reading experience.

If "The Superstition of Divorce" condemns divorce - it's next on my reading list. I'm a child of divorce, and I hate and despise the nasty D word.

Me too (on all counts) but it's important to get that the people who have divorced are victims of the thinking that encouraged and justified the normalization of divorce. They're not bad guys. The thing to do now is to correct the wrong thinking so that people once again see divorce as a drastic step that one out of a hundred people shouldn't make - that it should be an extreme exception, one out of a thousand, and not one out of two marriages. So that our children bring THEIR children to us, their grandparents, who still have a common address and life.

And yes, Chesterton gets it right. By "standing on his head", he helps us to see that it is the world that has gone upside-down. By starting with what marriage IS, he makes it clear what it cannot be. It winds up touching everything that has gone wrong with our thinking that makes the modern insanities possible.
 
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Mariya116

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And yes, Chesterton gets it right. By "standing on his head", he helps us to see that it is the world that has gone upside-down. By starting with what marriage IS, he makes it clear what it cannot be. It winds up touching everything that has gone wrong with our thinking that makes the modern insanities possible.
But hasn't the world changed in pretty major ways since he wrote in the XIXth century? Women work, women have rights, there is contraception - things are not the same they were back when he analyzed them.
 
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rusmeister

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But hasn't the world changed in pretty major ways since he wrote in the XIXth century? Women work, women have rights, there is contraception - things are not the same they were back when he analyzed them.

On the contrary - pretty much everything he wrote is relevant today, because he wrote most of all about what DOESN'T change. Women were working when he wrote; they had "rights", as you call them, and even contraception. I think you would be VERY surprised to learn how much hasn't changed.

If you knew about the existence of Chesterton societies across the Englsh-speaking world, and sites and groups promoting the ideas he spoke to and for around the world in many languages today, you would have a hard time arguing that he is out of date, when so many people clearly disagree.

Again, top links are posted above:
http://www.christianforums.com/t6362814/#post40378666

The Chesterton.org discover page is probably the single most useful one.
 
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rusmeister

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I'll bump this again (meaning ya oughtta check out the OP!)

What I would iterate here (and it took GKC to teach me that "reiterate" is unnecessessary repepetition) is that with GKC, we truly have a situation which is like a world where few have ever heard of Shakespeare or Aristotle. Anyone enthusiastic about a discovery of those two great men would look nuts to people who do not grasp their genius. If the discovery is better than a combination of those two geniuses, all the more so. And that's the problem of discovering Chesterton. A typical reaction is going to be exactly that - a reaction, one that dismisses such an improbable discovery and writes it off as just the kookiness of the messenger. Such a discovery IS highly improbable. But with Chesterton, there you have it. It really IS true.

I'm currently reading his biography of William Cobbett - which I'll bet only one poster in a thousand at all of CF has heard of. What I find in his biographies that I have read so far (Stevenson and Browning being a couple, Dickens is still on my hot list) is that he praises remarkable qualities on those men that we see in GK himself. In his humility, he does not see or care about himself - but WE can see that what he describes and admires in others is even more true of him.
Another impression from his historical works is the depth of his insight. For example, he casually says, almost off-handedly, that Cobbett is the antithesis of John Wilkes. THAT (aside from my reaction to the latter name, which I only knew in connection with the assassination of Lincoln) forced me to research on JW Booth's namesake, and to get enough about what the man stood for (as well as bearing in mind what Cobbett stood for) to realize that Chesterton was right. In short, I am forced to educate myself when I read Chesterton. I am forced to learn history and many other things in greater depth, because I am forced to think in general (though it is a pleasant experience!). In "The Ballad of the White Horse", we are forced to learn something about King Alfred and his times, that it really was a last stand of a Christian culture against a pagan (Viking) one, as you pretty much have to do a little background reading to fully get what is being talked about. And a hundred other such examples.

I can't fit that into my posts, so some think I'm cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. I want to talk about somebody else. Some want to make it out to be just about me. I'm human enough that that saddens me. But here, let's stick to the man named in the OP.
 
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rusmeister

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What can be found in Chesteron's writing that can't be found in Orthodox sources?
That's a good question.
I think the answer is "an awful lot". Orthodox sources don't, in general, teach us how to think. The Church offers plenty to challenge the intellectual, but is perfectly happy bringing us to Christ from wherever we are in whatever state., to help us put on the mind of Christ in spiritual terms. The Church is "enough". You don't need any heterodox author for salvation.

But on that path to salvation, you can go through life learning, seeing and understanding certain things, or not. You can spend your whole life in the Church without learning history as it was never taught in school, in a way that shows that the Church is right and Jesus Christ IS the Son of God, without learning the roots of the particular forms of error in the modern world that we live in today. We all come to the Church broken in one way or another, and infected in some way or other with the twisted thinking of the modern world. The Church can cure us of that to the degree that we let it, but it does not specially help us to understand the error and identify where we went wrong.
The Church does not teach us everything about the world.

Also, he is of tremendous value in dealing with people who will not hear a word about anything from a source of religious authority, but WILL listen to non-religious thought on their own terms. The man who will not listen to an Orthodox source might still listen to an Englishman who doesn't assume that they already believe in God. In a word, apologetics.

Can you get along without him? Sure. But why would anyone WANT to? Any reason you could offer for studying literature, history, art, philosophy, and so on is a mega-reason to read GKC. Especially if he makes you laugh.
 
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