Girl taken from foster home because ethnicity.

smaneck

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Her biological father is Choctaw, she is Choctaw.

She is not being placed with her father who has a long criminal record. She is being placed with some of his relatives who aren't actually NDNs. But her sisters are there and that's what the courts saw as important. Also, this family has remained in close touch with the girl in question. They are not at all strangers to her.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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She is not being placed with her father who has a long criminal record. She is being placed with some of his relatives who aren't actually NDNs. But her sisters are there and that's what the courts saw as important. Also, this family has remained in close touch with the girl in question. They are not at all strangers to her.

That seems to me to be the only bright spot here, in that at least she KNOWS the people she's going to. And if those people have any kind of heart at all, they will allow visitation to the Page family.
 
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One Voice Among Many1

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She is not being placed with her father who has a long criminal record. She is being placed with some of his relatives who aren't actually NDNs. But her sisters are there and that's what the courts saw as important. Also, this family has remained in close touch with the girl in question. They are not at all strangers to her.

I know she is not being placed with her biological father and I know the relatives she is living with now are non-NDN. I was simply making the comment that her father is Choctaw, which means she is also Choctaw. She is an NDN child who was protected under the Indian Child Welfare Act. I am glad that this federal law protecting Native American children prevailed in this case. I stand with the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma, the Indian Child Welfare Association, and with the National Congress of American Indians in this case. In my opinion, all children, including (and especially) Native American children, belong with their biological family, if that is at all possible.
 
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smaneck

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I do not think she is where she belongs. I think anyone who watched the video of them removing her from the family should think twice about whether it was really in her "best interests" to remove her.

Here is the problem I have with that. If you are putting the interest of your child first you don't make media circus out of it. Remember the story of Solomon and the two mothers who both claimed the same child? This girl had stayed with this family on previous occasions. If they had properly prepared her and if arrangements had been made to keep in contact with the foster family, I don't think her removal would have been nearly as traumatic. My father cried when my foster brother and sister were taken away, but he didn't cry in front of them.

The biological father has never had an interest or a connection to the Chocktaw Nation.

That's not true. He has always been a member of the Chocktaw tribe.

I believe that was a convenient excuse for his relatives to go for custody of the child.

Yes and no. The principles that apply in this case are ones that should apply in ever child custody case. It is just that it is required in the case of Native Americans.

If something had happened to me when my oldest son was younger, I'd have NEVER in a million years wanted him to go to my ex-husband's relatives.

You realize the mother is still alive? She is a drug-addict who has lost six of her children to the foster-care system. If any of her relatives had tried to get custody they probably would have succeeded. There is nothing in this law that says the Indian side of the family gets first priority. It was the father's family that was interested and sued for custody. Why shouldn't she be united with her sisters?
Incidentally the Pages' were her third foster home.
 
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smaneck

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I know she is not being placed with her biological father and I know the relatives she is living with now are non-NDN. I was simply making the comment that her father is Choctaw, which means she is also Choctaw. She is an NDN child who was protected under the Indian Child Welfare Act. I am glad that this federal law protecting Native American children prevailed in this case. I stand with the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma, the Indian Child Welfare Association, and with the National Congress of American Indians in this case. In my opinion, all children, including Native American children, belong with their biological family, if that is at all possible.

I agree, but not because she is NDN. I agree because relatives should always have priority unless they are shown to be unfit. But it is cruel to all involved to allow such cases to drag on so long.
 
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One Voice Among Many1

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I agree, but not because she is NDN.

I understand.

I agree because relatives should always have priority unless they are shown to be unfit.

I agree.

But it is cruel to all involved to allow such cases to drag on so long.

I also agreed. It was the Pages who drag this case out. They lost three times in court and each time they appealed, and they have recently appealed this decision again.
 
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Tallguy88

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We are licensed foster care providers, but we are marked as "foster-adopt only", because we don't want to go through the heartache of giving a child up. There are very few cases that become adoption cases around here, and most of them unfortunately involve non-white children, which our system has repeatedly told us we don't really qualify for.

It's a twisted business. I'm almost rather relieved that we haven't received a call to bring a child into our home.
They won't let you adopt non-White children? Aren't they the ones that we are told need adopted the most?
 
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One Voice Among Many1

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The Children's Law Center of California official statement on Lexi's case.

The Children's Law Center of California.jpg
 
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PreachersWife2004

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Here is the problem I have with that. If you are putting the interest of your child first you don't make media circus out of it. Remember the story of Solomon and the two mothers who both claimed the same child? This girl had stayed with this family on previous occasions. If they had properly prepared her and if arrangements had been made to keep in contact with the foster family, I don't think her removal would have been nearly as traumatic. My father cried when my foster brother and sister were taken away, but he didn't cry in front of them.

I don't know who made the media circus out of it. Someone kept yelling "it's illegal to record (or tape, can't remember) her, it's illegal to record her" or something along those lines. I remember when that little Cuban boy was taken away, there was a media circus around that, as well, and it wasn't because of the family he was being removed from.

We honestly don't know that they didn't try to prepare her. Removals, no matter what the circumstances, will almost always be heart-wrenching.

That's not true. He has always been a member of the Chocktaw tribe.

I have read in numerous articles, even ones that support this decision, that the father is, for lack of a better term, a non-practicing Choctaw. He can be a member of the tribe, sure, but he's not living on a rez, never has lived on a rez, and never had any affiliation with the tribe other than a generally automatic membership claim. It was his "lineage" that determined his status, and that lineage is what is allowing another non-Indian family to have custody of the girl.

Yes and no. The principles that apply in this case are ones that should apply in ever child custody case. It is just that it is required in the case of Native Americans.

And I believe it was abused here. I see the purpose of the law, even as that is dwindling, but to me it's rather like zero tolerance laws.

You realize the mother is still alive? She is a drug-addict who has lost six of her children to the foster-care system. If any of her relatives had tried to get custody they probably would have succeeded. There is nothing in this law that says the Indian side of the family gets first priority. It was the father's family that was interested and sued for custody. Why shouldn't she be united with her sisters?
Incidentally the Pages' were her third foster home.

My entire point is that biology doesn't always equal better. I remember the courts telling me way back when my oldest was still a minor that should anything happen to me, my ex's parents could petition for custody even though my son had been living with us, and calling my husband dad and had not had any contact with his biological father. That's how messed up the courts are. I had to get a restraining order against HIS FAMILY too to make sure that didn't happen.

In this case, both parents are screwed up and need help.

Being reunited with her sisters shouldn't be the top priority here. Yes, it's a nice dreamy thought, but it may not be what's best for her at this time.

How does that work?

We are only called on cases where there is little to no chance that the biological parents or their family will gain custody back. We had a case here in MN not too long ago where a father, who had been petitioning the court constantly for custody of his children because the mother was abusing him, finally lost it and killed the wife in front of the kids in a car at a park. Totally messed up situation. He goes to jail, and a friend of ours had the three children for a few months while they sorted everything out. Mom was dead, dad was in prison. Mom's family wanted the children, but they wanted to take them back to Russia (it was very weird hanging out with our friends because they had police with them at all times because apparently the mom had Russian mob connections and a threat to kidnap them had been received.) Anyhoo, CPS refused to give custody to the mom's family because they didn't want the children removed from the country so I'm really not sure who they ended up with...had we been licensed at that time, we would've been offered the opportunity to adopt them. I'm not sure that we would have been equipped to deal with the mental and physical baggage of watching your mother die in front of you, and the fact that the older girl was very nonchalant about the whole thing. When I first met her, she asked me if I knew what happened. I nodded and she said "Daddy killed Momma" I nodded again, and then she said "I'm glad he killed her. Momma hurt us". Oh did that break my heart...

So yeah, that's why we don't get phone calls...foster care system exists to reunite whenever possible.

They won't let you adopt non-White children? Aren't they the ones that we are told need adopted the most?

They are, but with the foster system it's a bit different. Adoption, whether through private agencies or the system, is one big racket these days, but at least in the private sector they tend to not make a big deal about racial ethnicity. Here, we were told that they always strived to placed non-white children with non-white families. If they are able to do that consistently well, then, okay.

Time has shown through the ages that CPS often does not do things "consistently well".[/quote]
 
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Cimorene

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I don't know who made the media circus out of it. Someone kept yelling "it's illegal to record (or tape, can't remember) her, it's illegal to record her" or something along those lines. I remember when that little Cuban boy was taken away, there was a media circus around that, as well, and it wasn't because of the family he was being removed from.

What little Cuban boy was taken away? When did this happen?

My entire point is that biology doesn't always equal better. I remember the courts telling me way back when my oldest was still a minor that should anything happen to me, my ex's parents could petition for custody even though my son had been living with us, and calling my husband dad and had not had any contact with his biological father. That's how messed up the courts are. I had to get a restraining order against HIS FAMILY too to make sure that didn't happen.

The guardians of the family who will now care for Lexi aren't related to her biologically. She will live w her biological sister & another sister is close. I do think that's important. That family must have been stable enough to care for her sister. I would definitely want to be w my sister!

Being reunited with her sisters shouldn't be the top priority here. Yes, it's a nice dreamy thought, but it may not be what's best for her at this time.

How do you know this? Why is it a nice dreamy thought? I thought this case went to court 3 times. 3 different judges. 3 times of having all the evaluations & factors considered carefully. From what I understand they didn't agree w you. Bc the foster family kept losing but kept appealing. Of course it's v traumatic for her right now that she left the family that has been fostering her but that doesn't mean that in the long run it won't be better for her to be w her sisters. They've been in contact w her for years. They're not strangers. The media wasn't called to the sisters' house so we have no idea how they feel about all this. We just see the 1 side & don't have the visual for the other. I can't even imagine. Spending yrs wanting to be living w your sister. There is a bond w your sister. I know that for fact bc the person I'm the closest to in the world is my sister & it's hard enough just w her being in Chicago now for college.

I do hope that she can keep up a close connection w her foster family. W the kids especially bc they are like her siblings now too. It's got to hurt them too but you know it had to have hurt her sisters as well. Kids on both sides would have been hurt. I hope the adults won't just think of themselves. I hope they set up Skype & visits & stuff like that to keep that connection. Bc it's for the kids who need that.
 
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Cimorene

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Oh. I assumed she meant something recent. That happened an extremely long time ago. In that link there are quotes from the boy who is now grown up saying he was v glad to have been returned to Cuba to be w his family & retain his nationality. He grew up w his siblings. That is important. He grew up with his dad & stepmom too. Of course that's a super dramatic image, but it doesn't show what happened in the yrs afterwards. Or the side of the other ppl involved. That's kind of the same thing here bc we see the girl being taken away & that trauma. We don't see the rest of it. Maybe, hopefully for her it will all work out well like it did for him. It sounds like his life is great now. He is studying to be an engineer & seems happy.
 
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Tallguy88

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Oh. I assumed she meant something recent. That happened an extremely long time ago. In that link there are quotes from the boy who is now grown up saying he was v glad to have been returned to Cuba to be w his family & retain his nationality. He grew up w his siblings. That is important. He grew up with his dad & stepmom too. Of course that's a super dramatic image, but it doesn't show what happened in the yrs afterwards. Or the side of the other ppl involved. That's kind of the same thing here bc we see the girl being taken away & that trauma. We don't see the rest of it. Maybe, hopefully for her it will all work out well like it did for him. It sounds like his life is great now. He is studying to be an engineer & seems happy.
Sixteen years isn't an extremely long time ago. I remember when this went down. I'm not much older than Elian.

Maybe he is glad to be back in Cuba. But it's hard to know for sure, it's not like they have freedom of speech over there. Plus, the kid is a great propaganda tool for Castro. His mother died trying to get them both out of that brutal dictatorship. Ultimately, her sacrifice was in vain thanks to the convoluted asylum laws.

Probably cost Al Gore the election, too. Never underestimate the political influence of Florida's Cuban population. Why do you think we've kept the embargo for so long? Because politicians practically have to bow down to the Cuban Immigrant community in order to win Florida, a crucial swing state in presidential elections.
 
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Cimorene

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Sixteen years isn't an extremely long time ago. I remember when this went down. I'm not much older than Elian.

Maybe he is glad to be back in Cuba. But it's hard to know for sure, it's not like they have freedom of speech over there. Plus, the kid is a great propaganda tool for Castro. His mother died trying to get them both out of that brutal dictatorship. Ultimately, her sacrifice was in vain thanks to the convoluted asylum laws.


This thread is posted in the News & Current Events section. So, as far as current events go 16 yrs is an extremely long time. There are a few parallels between what happened w him way back then & what is happening with this girl now. I guess the benefit of so much time having passed is that Elian is now an adult & can speak for himself about his feelings. I think what he has to say about his life counts for way more than our opinions or speculation about it. Yes I know their freedom of speech is limited but I find what he's repeatedly said in interviews to be believable. I can def. understand why he was glad to have grown up with his one living parent & his brothers. That counts for a ton. Especially for a kid who already has gone through the trauma of having lost a parent. As you said his mom tragically died tried to get him to America. Obviously everything would have been different if she had lived & could have raised him herself. I can see both sides of things. If he had stayed in America w his extended relatives maybe he would have had more opportunities. Maybe not. He seems to be doing pretty great for himself in Cuba & to be happy w his life. A lot of ppl probably would have wanted him to be booted from America the second he turned 18. I don't know if he would have been able to visit with his father, stepmom, siblings & all other relatives in Cuba while growing up if he stayed in America. That would have been hard on any kid.

Probably cost Al Gore the election, too. Never underestimate the political influence of Florida's Cuban population. Why do you think we've kept the embargo for so long? Because politicians practically have to bow down to the Cuban Immigrant community in order to win Florida, a crucial swing state in presidential elections.

Do you really want to derail this thread to talk about all that?
 
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smaneck

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I don't know who made the media circus out of it. Someone kept yelling "it's illegal to record (or tape, can't remember) her, it's illegal to record her" or something along those lines. I remember when that little Cuban boy was taken away, there was a media circus around that, as well, and it wasn't because of the family he was being removed from.

Well, these people don't exactly look like reporters:

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwo...ation-responds-foster-couple-icwa-case-163901

Removals, no matter what the circumstances, will almost always be heart-wrenching.

Of course, but this isn't the fault of the Indian Child Welfare Act. When the Foster Care system is operating properly it's goal is to reunite families as soon as it is considered safe for the child to do so. In Lexi's case that didn't happen. Lexis mother had abandoned her soon after birth and she and her sister were raised by her single father who stole a car when Lexi was a toddler and was sent to prison for a year. When he got out in 2011 he was expected to complete a plan before getting his daughters back. It included taking drug tests, parenting classes, and getting a job. Problems arose when his work hours began to conflict with his parenting classes and drug tests. After struggling for 18 months for some accommodation to be made, he finally asked that Lexi be placed with family members in Utah where her sister had already been placed and where he could enjoy regular visitation. The court agreed, but then allowed Lexi's foster parents to appeal the ruling which left the matter unresolved for another two years. IMV this whole episode represents a failure of the foster care system not the ICWA.

I have read in numerous articles, even ones that support this decision, that the father is, for lack of a better term, a non-practicing Choctaw. He can be a member of the tribe, sure, but he's not living on a rez, never has lived on a rez, and never had any affiliation with the tribe other than a generally automatic membership claim.

You realize that living on a reservation has never been a qualification for membership in a tribe? The Choctaw have been involved in this case from the start. I doubt if that would have been the case, if he had no connections with his tribe.

It was his "lineage" that determined his status, and that lineage is what is allowing another non-Indian family to have custody of the girl.

Again, the only thing the Indian Child Welfare Act does is force the foster care system to do what it is supposed to be doing anyhow.

My entire point is that biology doesn't always equal better.

Not always. But how much government intrusion into families do you want to see?

I remember the courts telling me way back when my oldest was still a minor that should anything happen to me, my ex's parents could petition for custody even though my son had been living with us, and calling my husband dad and had not had any contact with his biological father.

Was he paying child support? Oftentimes the best thing to do in such situations is to allow the step-father adopt. The biological father often will agree to this to get out of child support, especially if he is unfit to be a father in the first place.
That's how messed up the courts are. I had to get a restraining order against HIS FAMILY too to make sure that didn't happen.

We are only called on cases where there is little to no chance that the biological parents or their family will gain custody back.

I see.

]Time has shown through the ages that CPS often does not do things "consistently well".

With that we can agree.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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Was he paying child support? Oftentimes the best thing to do in such situations is to allow the step-father adopt. The biological father often will agree to this to get out of child support, especially if he is unfit to be a father in the first place.

He would pay when forced.

He agreed to consent to adoption IF I waived all his child support, something the state said I could not do, because he didn't owe ME, he owed the STATE and then the STATE reimbursed me. Once he found out that was out of the question he "claimed" he didn't want my husband adopting our son. He's still in arrearages, to the tune $44k+. Our son is no longer a minor, so it's not an issue now, but if something had happened to me, without that restraining order, the courts would've had little choice but to place him with my ex's family.

So you can kinda see why I am constantly leery of court decisions when it comes to children. Oftentimes what they believe to be in the best interest of the child is anything but.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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This thread is posted in the News & Current Events section. So, as far as current events go 16 yrs is an extremely long time.

It was relevant to the story - it was not the original story. And it was still news.
 
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