Gen 15:6 - Paul vs James

[FreeGrace2]

That would mean as long as there is a chunk of lead and plastic sitting in the car, no one ever needs to buy a new battery.

No it doesn't. But to continue the false idea that a "dead faith" is "no faith", go tell a mortician that a "dead body" is "no body". They'll get a good chuckle from that one. LOL

There is no point to arguing any point that something dead is of any effect or use, and that it makes any difference whether it's there or not. If it's dead, it's irrelevant to argue it even exists.

So, when one's parent dies, it becomes irrelevant to bury what doesn't "even exist", huh???

"Dead" faith is no faith at all because it's of no use at all.

That isn't even close to James' point. 2:18 gives us his point clearly. One cannot "show" or demonstrate their faith to others if they don't have deeds or works to show their faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

By answering "you can't" you just killed the faith only theology.

Faith only can NEVER get a person to be a servant of righteousness. The only way to become a servant of righteousness is by doing righteousness.

This is a silly charge. Can a servant of righteousness ever fall down on the job? Of course they can. Do believers "choose whom they will serve"? Of course they do, as Paul clearly taught in Romans 6:16.

The only way to be a servant of righteousness and be of God is by WORKING righteousness (Acts 10:35)

This statement removes faith from God's requirement for salvation. Slick. I'm sure the devil would heartily approve.

The context of James 2 does not support your theory James is talking about hypocrisy.

Then please address EACH example he gave from 2:1 through 3:12 and explain how they CAN'T be about hypocrisy, and what his point was about each of the examples, then. Just making claims holds no water with me.

Lev 17:11 says "For the life of the flesh is in the blood:…"

Context, my friend, context. That verse addresses animals, not humans.

Similarly the life of faith is in the works.

Sure. I agree.

 

[RDKirk]

No it doesn't. But to continue the false idea that a "dead faith" is "no faith", go tell a mortician that a "dead body" is "no body". They'll get a good chuckle from that one. LOL


So, when one's parent dies, it becomes irrelevant to bury what doesn't "even exist", huh???

As Jesus said: "Let the dead bury the dead." Yes, it is irrelevant.

That isn't even close to James' point. 2:18 gives us his point clearly. One cannot "show" or demonstrate their faith to others if they don't have deeds or works to show their faith.

James' point is that if one has faith, it will always result in something demonstrable. Faith is not a product of works, it is a producer of works.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, you rewrote it in order to PURPOSEFULLY leave the word "works" and "do " out for those type of words do not fit with the faith only theology.

Jesus told them to work for everlasting life.
They then asked what work they are to do.
Jesus gave them the work of believing.

Apparently some do not understand what "tongue-in cheek" means. Jesus was obviously telling them to believe in Him for eternal life. Which is found throughout John's gospel. And believing is NOT a work, as Paul clearly defined in Rom 4:4,5. It's not nice to try to pit Jesus against Paul.

JESUS calls believing a work, it's a work that Jesus required one to do unto everlasting life.

If one wants to persist in thinking that believing is a work, then it's the ONLY WORK that is required for eternal life.

The NIV has:
27-Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
28-Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29-Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

The NIV uses the word "works" and "do". I do not see them asking "what is required of us" with Jesus answering "belief only"

Did you miss v.28 altogether??

NOT ONE SINGLE VERSE says "salvation is without works". That idea is added to Eph 2:9.

Most people understand what "not of works" means. We are saved through faith, not of works.

You have not shown were Paul told the jailer to "believe only". You assume that into the context.

There is no assumption. Paul's answer is clear on HOW TO BE SAVED: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE SAVED. It could not be more clear. If that isn't clear to some, then they have a problem with communication or comprehension.

 

[EmSw]

By no effect, I mean that there is no testimony that one is a Christian when one doesn't live out their faith. By condemnation, I mean that the believer who isn't living out their faith will be condemned as a hypocrite by others who see his life without works.

Others will condemn a man who see his life without works? Have you not read the words of Jesus in Luke 6:37?
Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Jesus said not to condemn or else you will be condemned. So I don't think James is saying this at all.

No, I don't agree with that. Salvation is being rescued or delivered from the lake of fire. Salvation RESULTS in a lot of things, but salvation itself is the avoidance of the second death.

Here is salvation -

Matthew 1:21 -
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.

Nowhere will you find salvation is the avoidance of the lake of fire.

I would say that salvation is supposed to RESULT in a new way of life. But it doesn't always.

Then the new birth means nothing.

Well, James was half brother to Jesus. So he would be quite familiar with Jesus' views. And Jesus took the Pharisees to task many times on their own hypocrisy. So this is no stretch.

The question James asked was, 'can this faith save him?' Can faith, absent from works, save a man from hypocrisy of others?

James' letter was to believing Jews. They were already saved. His point was to urge them to live out their faith by deeds, or works. Or they would be seen as hypocrites. One doesn't need to "label" hypocrisy to note it. One only has to demonstrate it or describe how it looks.

It does not say they will be seen as hypocrites; it says their faith is DEAD! It means their faith has no life whatsoever. What part of 'dead' is so hard to understand?

But when such an explanation doesn't fit one's theology or training, their only defense is to claim that James never used the word. Good grief. He actually gave us many examples:
James 2:1-11 is about showing "favoritism", which is just another way to be a hypocrite.

James 2 is about faith without works.

James 2:14-26 is about the hypocrisy of not demonstrating deeds from our faith.

James 3:5-12 is about the hypocrisy of the tongue: with it we praise God and curse men, who are made in the image of God. Out of the same mouth comes praise and cursing.

Why not say what James says, faith without works is dead, not hypocritical. If we substitute hypocritical with dead in verse 26, we get, 'For just as the body without the spirit is hypocritical (dead), so also faith without works is hypocritical (dead).

Sorry FG2, it doesn't make sense at all.

 

[TheSeabass]

Yep, nothing about requiring for maintanence of salvation, as I already explained.


Confused. Yes, it is God's purpose that all believers do good works, but it certainly does NOT mean what you claim. There is NOTHING in the context to conclude what you've concluded.

You are trying to undo what God BEFORE ORDAINED. Christian MUST do good works, they have no choice in the matter. You cannot find a way from the bible to get one to become a Christian yet never does any good works and be saved without having done good works. Those good works are a necessary part of the Christian maintaining his salvation...it's BEFORE ORDAINED.

The error in the "sheep and goat" parable is thinking that behavior or works resulted in either salvation or lake of fire. The sheep refer to BELIEVERS while goats refer to UNBELIEVERS. That is the issue throughout Scripture.

The context of Matt 25 actually says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you are claiming here.

The contrast made in the context is not between believers and unbelievers but between those that did do good works and therefore judged to be saved and those that lacked good works and judged to be lost for those lack of good works.

Christ's point being that what is done to one of his disciples is done to Him. If Christian shows lack of good works toward his fellow Christians then he ALSO showing lack of good works towards Christ. Verse 40 bears out that Christ is talking about how disciples (believers) treat other disciples (believers). If one disciples does not do good works for another disciple then he is not doing good works for Christ either.

1 Jn 3:7 "But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?"

Those Christians that shut up their bowls of compassion unto another Christian does not have the love of god within and will be lost. If a Christian shuts up his bowels of compassion for another Christian then he ALSO has shut up his bowels of compassion unto Christ and will be judged to be lost.

Jude 1:21 Jude commands the Christian to keep himself in the love of God and one way of doing this is by doing good works unto others. Lack of those good works, then the Christian will fall from the love of God and become lost.

Another assumption that being cleansed is about salvation when John was writing to already saved people. It is a gross error to see 1 Jn 1:9 as applying to salvation. No one is saved by confessing their sins. We are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8


Except there are no verses in the Bible to support such a conclusion.


I only look to Scripture for my understanding. And eternal life, a gift of God (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

John is writing to and about Christians in 1 Jn 1:7
From verses as Eph 1:4 and 2 Pet 3:14 Christians are those that are "holy and without blame" "without spot". So how can Christians who do commit sin ever be without spot and blame? They must have a continual cleansing away of sis by the blood of Christ and that only happens if the Christian continues to walk in the light. IF a Christian quits walking in the light, then his sins are no longer all cleansed away and he is not longer holy without spot and blame and will be lost.

Rom 6:23 says the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Eternal security says eternal life is UNcondtional.
Rom 6:23 says eternal life is CONDITIONALLY in Christ Jesus. One falls from Christ he falls from that eternal life that is conditionally found in Christ.

Rom 11 is about God cutting the Jews off due to their unbelief and grafting in the Gentiles. God promised salvation to the Jews THROUGH CHRIST yet most of the Jews rejected Christ. In Rom 11:29 God will not revoke His gifts and promises. God promised Abraham "and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed" this included the Jews. God was not going to revoke this promise and cut the Jews off from salvation completely but instead left the door ajar for the Jews to still come to Christ and be saved. Rom 11:29 has nothing at all to do with the man made teaching of eternal security. Rom 11:28 shows that the Jews, not all, but the majority of the Jews were enemies of the gospel for the sake of the Gentiles. The Jews rejection of the gospel is what brought about the gospel going to the Gentiles (Acts 13:46). But "as touching the election" as to God's choice of election, the Jews are still "beloved for the father's sake" (father's being Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) therefore God did not revoke the gifts and promise of salvation He made to the Jews.

 

[TheSeabass]

Apparently some do not understand what "tongue-in cheek" means. Jesus was obviously telling them to believe in Him for eternal life. Which is found throughout John's gospel. And believing is NOT a work, as Paul clearly defined in Rom 4:4,5. It's not nice to try to pit Jesus against Paul.


If one wants to persist in thinking that believing is a work, then it's the ONLY WORK that is required for eternal life.


Did you miss v.28 altogether??


Most people understand what "not of works" means. We are saved through faith, not of works.


There is no assumption. Paul's answer is clear on HOW TO BE SAVED: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE SAVED. It could not be more clear. If that isn't clear to some, then they have a problem with communication or comprehension.

Ironically you are still "working" hard at trying to find a way to get the words "LABOUR", "WORK" and "DO" from the context of Jn 6:27-29.

Again, the people did NOT ask "what is required of us" but did ask "what WORK shall we DO"? Jesus answers their question of what work they are to do by giving them the work of believing to do.

This is where your quandary comes in. You have misused Eph 2:9 by isolating it from all other bible verses (as Rom 6:16-18) trying to eliminate ALL works from salvation. Yet Jesus called believing a work in Jn 6:27-29 but you cannot have Eph 2:9 eliminate the work of believing. So obviously you are now on your quest in Jn 6:27-29 to try and find a way to get believing to not be a WORK that the people were given to DO by Jesus.


Therefore 'not of works' of Eph 2:9 cannot eliminate the work of believing/ the work of faith (1 Thess 1:3) nor the "obeying from the heart" in Rom 6:17,18 and all the other verses that requires obedient works for one to be saved.


In Acts 16 you do continue to assume that Paul commanded the jailer to "believe only".
1) the context, the underlying Greek do not support your assumption.
2) the jailer was repentant and baptized, not for some unknown/out of the blue reason, but repented and was baptized because Paul preached them to the jailer.
3) the participle phrase "having believed" in verse 34 includes all the jailer just did, yet you keep avoiding the fact the jailer repented and was baptized which was part of his "having believed".

 

[TheSeabass]

This is a silly charge. Can a servant of righteousness ever fall down on the job? Of course they can. Do believers "choose whom they will serve"? Of course they do, as Paul clearly taught in Romans 6:16.


This statement removes faith from God's requirement for salvation. Slick. I'm sure the devil would heartily approve.


Then please address EACH example he gave from 2:1 through 3:12 and explain how they CAN'T be about hypocrisy, and what his point was about each of the examples, then. Just making claims holds no water with me.


Context, my friend, context. That verse addresses animals, not humans.


Sure. I agree.

The issue is not about a servant of righteousness falling down on the job but HOW does one become a servant of righteousness in the first place? How can one become a servant of some thing that he does not do.

So you have yet to demonstrate how one can become a servant of righteousness by faith only.

I understand the context of Lev 17:11 and was making a comparison.
Flesh without the blood is dead is comparable to faith without works being dead.

 

[EmSw]

You are trying to undo what God BEFORE ORDAINED. Christian MUST do good works, they have no choice in the matter. You cannot find a way from the bible to get one to become a Christian yet never does any good works and be saved without having done good works. Those good works are a necessary part of the Christian maintaining his salvation...it's BEFORE ORDAINED.

Also note all judgments are based upon our works, deeds, ways, and conduct. Nowhere will you find anyone judged upon their election, faith, or beliefs. However, one's beliefs will dictate their ways, deeds, and works.

Revelation 20 -
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Ezekiel 7:3 -
Now the end is upon you, and I will send My anger against you; I will judge you according to your ways and bring all your abominations upon you.

Ezekiel 24:14 -
I, the Lord, have spoken; it is coming and I will act. I will not relent, and I will not pity and I will not be sorry; according to your ways and according to your deeds I will judge you,” declares the Lord God.

1 Peter 1:17 -
If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"By no effect, I mean that there is no testimony that one is a Christian when one doesn't live out their faith. By condemnation, I mean that the believer who isn't living out their faith will be condemned as a hypocrite by others who see his life without works."

Others will condemn a man who see his life without works? Have you not read the words of Jesus in Luke 6:37?
Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Jesus said not to condemn or else you will be condemned. So I don't think James is saying this at all.

I'm sorry my post was so misunderstood. When one person seeks gross inconsistencies in another person's life, they call them a hypocrite. That's ALL I mean by "condemn" as a hypocrite.

Here is salvation -

Matthew 1:21 -
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.

Nowhere will you find salvation is the avoidance of the lake of fire.

What does sin produce? Death, per Rom 6:23. Specifically, the SECOND DEATH, per Rev 2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8. The second death is another phrase for the lake of fire.

So, Matt 1:21 is telling us that Jesus will save people from the lake of fire. Because that's what sin produced in every person.

Question: do believers still sin? I hope your view is not one of "sinless perfection", since the Bible does not teach that. Since we still sin, how can Matt 1:21 mean that we won't continue to sin?

Then the new birth means nothing.

I have no idea why one would make such a conclusion from what I posted.

[QUOE]It does not say they will be seen as hypocrites; it says their faith is DEAD! It means their faith has no life whatsoever. What part of 'dead' is so hard to understand?[/QUOTE]
One does not have to use the word 'hypocrite' when one clearly presents EXAMPLES of hypocrisy throughout ch 2 and 3.

James 2 is about faith without works.

Which is about hypocrisy.

Why not say what James says, faith without works is dead, not hypocritical.

James was speaking figuratively when he used the word "dead". Not literally.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Yep, nothing about requiring for maintanence of salvation, as I already explained.

Confused. Yes, it is God's purpose that all believers do good works, but it certainly does NOT mean what you claim. There is NOTHING in the context to conclude what you've concluded."

You are trying to undo what God BEFORE ORDAINED.

Your claim is untrue.

Christian MUST do good works, they have no choice in the matter.

"Must do god works" for what, specifically? And please provide Scripture to support your answer. As to choice, I suggest reading Romans 6, esp v.11-16. It is ALL ABOUT choice, or as Paul wrote, who one "offers themselves to obey as slaves".

You cannot find a way from the bible to get one to become a Christian yet never does any good works and be saved without having done good works.

Paul's answer to the jailer refutes your claim. One will be saved when one believes in Christ. And please don't forget the thief on the cross.

Those good works are a necessary part of the Christian maintaining his salvation...it's BEFORE ORDAINED.

The phrase 'before ordained" means it's a command. Which is for obedience and ultimate reward, not for maintaining salvation.

Jude 1:21 Jude commands the Christian to keep himself in the love of God and one way of doing this is by doing good works unto others. Lack of those good works, then the Christian will fall from the love of God and become lost.

This is impossible, because Paul defined both justification (Rom 5:15) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God BEFORE he wrote in 11:29 that "God's gifts are irrevocable". No one can lose their salvation because it is irrevocable.

Rom 6:23 says the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Eternal security says eternal life is UNcondtional.
Rom 6:23 says eternal life is CONDITIONALLY in Christ Jesus. One falls from Christ he falls from that eternal life that is conditionally found in Christ.

The error here is either ignorance or misunderstanding of what Eph 1:13 says. The Holy Spirit seals the believer "in Him". He does that. We don't. And we can't undo what He has done. If that were true, there would be warning verses about that. But there aren't, proving that it isn't true.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ironically you are still "working" hard at trying to find a way to get the words "LABOUR", "WORK" and "DO" from the context of Jn 6:27-29.

Again, the people did NOT ask "what is required of us" but did ask "what WORK shall we DO"? Jesus answers their question of what work they are to do by giving them the work of believing to do.

Jesus' answer is a tongue-in-cheek answer. They were works oriented.

This is where your quandary comes in. You have misused Eph 2:9 by isolating it from all other bible verses (as Rom 6:16-18) trying to eliminate ALL works from salvation.

This is just unbelievable. Paul was crystal clear about the fact that we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, and NOT BY WORKS. Your rendition turns the verse upside down and destroys its clear message and meaning.

Yet Jesus called believing a work in Jn 6:27-29 but you cannot have Eph 2:9 eliminate the work of believing.

Since I have explained that Jesus used the word "work" as tongue-in-cheek, there is no problem with my view. In fact, Paul defines work as something that creates a debt owed in Rom 4:4. Please explain how simply believing the promise of God creates a debt that He owes to the believer.

So obviously you are now on your quest in Jn 6:27-29 to try and find a way to get believing to not be a WORK that the people were given to DO by Jesus.

Faith and works are distinguished in Scripture. Paul's answer to the jailer refutes your view. The jailer asked him what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul answered; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Nothing about works. But is one wants to call believing a work, that is their problem.

In Acts 16 you do continue to assume that Paul commanded the jailer to "believe only".

Another unbelievable statement!! That is exactly what He said to the jailer: believe and you will be saved. Not "believe and work, and you will be saved", or any other rendition.

 

[Butch5]

According to Paul, a person is justified by faith alone apart from works, that is, prior to doing any work, a person is justified simply by believing in Jesus.

Paul made this clear in his statements in Rom 4:2-6

"if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Gen 15:6) Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works"​

In contrast James view a man as not being justified by faith alone, but is only justified when he adds works to his faith. That is to him salvation is contingent upon faith+works.

He makes this clear in the second half of the second chapter of his letter. "But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Gen 15:6) And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." ​

Both Paul and James mention Gen 15:6, so both are referring to the same concept of being accounted righteous, what we call "justification". While Paul's argument is contingent upon interpreting Gen 15:6 as being fulfilled right then in Gen 15:6, prior to Abraham's work, James' argument is contingent upon viewing Gen 15:6 as a prediction which was not fulfilled until Gen 22 when Abraham attempted to sacrifice Isaac (a work), prior to which according to James, his faith was "dead".

While Protestants attempt to resolve this contradiction by misreading James, and Catholics attempt to resolve this contradiction by misreading Paul, in fact Paul and James have incompatible views concerning requirements for justification.

Paul, an apostle chosen personally by Jesus Christ, and even agreed upon by James along with the other apostles in Acts 15 as being the apostle to the Gentiles, trumps James, who is not an apostle of Jesus Christ.

Are there any other opinions concerning Paul and James' interpretation of Gen 15:6?

Hi bcbsr,

I addressed this on the other board in your thread. Paul is speaking of the works of the Mosaic Law, not doing good deeds. James is speaking of obedience to God. They are two different subjects. Yes, they site the same passage because it shows the point each is making.