Gen 15:6 - Paul vs James

[RDKirk]

By "dead faith," James actually means "no faith."

Instead, think sensibly, as God has distributed a measure of faith to each one.

Did God distribute to anyone "dead faith?" If one had what God had distributed, it would be living, active, and effective faith. If one has "dead faith," then whatever it is that person has, it's not the faith that God distributes, so it's not the faith either Paul or James is talking about. James is saying that God's faith will always produce works, and if there are no works, that person does not have the faith of God.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

By "dead faith," James actually means "no faith."

That's pretty much correct. However, there's a reason it wasn't put in that wording.

Anyone can say they believe in God, or perform good works in the name of Him. But faith is not something which can be halfway or bargained, it is something which is either there or altogether non-existent.
The disciples aimed to make this point clear.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is what you said again - 'There is no effect when one doesn't live out their faith before others. There is only the condemnation of being a hypocrite.'

What do you mean by 'no effect'? What do mean by 'condemnation'?

By no effect, I mean that there is no testimony that one is a Christian when one doesn't live out their faith. By condemnation, I mean that the believer who isn't living out their faith will be condemned as a hypocrite by others who see his life without works.

When I asked at what point is one NOT a hypocrite, you answered, 'when one lives out their lives according to Scripture'. As I believe, salvation is how one lives his/her life, which you seem to agree, although you won't come right out and say it.

No, I don't agree with that. Salvation is being rescued or delivered from the lake of fire. Salvation RESULTS in a lot of things, but salvation itself is the avoidance of the second death.

Salvation is new way of life. If one chooses to stay in their old life, it has no effect, as you say.

I would say that salvation is supposed to RESULT in a new way of life. But it doesn't always.

I would also like to point something else out you said in a previous post. I asked James' question about whether a faith without works can save a man. You said, 'no, it won't save him from the charge of being a hypocrite.' I'm sorry, but nothing is said in James about a hypocrite. You have conveniently added it.[/QUOET]
Nope. The 2 verses immediately following 2:14 give an account of a total hypocrite. James didn't need to spell out the word hypocrite. He gave a flaming example of hypocrisy. In addition, he began ch 2 with another example of hypocrisy and gave more examples into ch 3. So even though the word wasn't used doesn't mean he wasn't discussing the concept.

[QUOET]Charge of a hypocrite, huh? What imaginative answers you have, FG2. This definitely reeks of desperation for an answer. Please try again - from what does faith save a man? What does James call faith which has no works? How can a dead faith save anyone?

Well, James was half brother to Jesus. So he would be quite familiar with Jesus' views. And Jesus took the Pharisees to task many times on their own hypocrisy. So this is no stretch.

But, to the point, James gave many examples of hypocrisy in ch 2 and 3.

James gives an example in the last verse of chapter 2 -

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What can the body do without the spirit? Go ahead, name something, anything. Can it believe without the spirit? Can it think without the spirit? Can it reach out to Jesus without the spirit? As James said, it is useless, iow, it is of no use for anything, even believing.

You've accused me of "conveniently" adding to James. Now I guess it's your turn to "conveniently" add something. James 2:26 has nothing to do with "no use for even believing".

James' letter was to believing Jews. They were already saved. His point was to urge them to live out their faith by deeds, or works. Or they would be seen as hypocrites. One doesn't need to "label" hypocrisy to note it. One only has to demonstrate it or describe how it looks.

But when such an explanation doesn't fit one's theology or training, their only defense is to claim that James never used the word. Good grief. He actually gave us many examples:
James 2:1-11 is about showing "favoritism", which is just another way to be a hypocrite.

James 2:14-26 is about the hypocrisy of not demonstrating deeds from our faith.

James 3:5-12 is about the hypocrisy of the tongue: with it we praise God and curse men, who are made in the image of God. Out of the same mouth comes praise and cursing.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

dead faith . it's kind of like when you have kinetic energy that does not perform any action . it just sits there . the momentum is lost .. it's dead .

this would therefore relate to the application of faith, as the letter of James is addressed to people who are already born again.

 

[FreeGrace2]

By "dead faith," James actually means "no faith."

Actually, not true. Does a dead battery mean there is no battery? But to James' point, 2:26 speaks of a body without the spirit being dead.

When a loved one dies, do you consider the "dead body" to be "no body"? The body in fact still exists.

If James meant there had been no faith when he wrote about a "dead faith", then James 2;26 makes no sense. So he clearly could not have meant there is no faith. His point was there was no works in a dead faith.

Did God distribute to anyone "dead faith?" If one had what God had distributed, it would be living, active, and effective faith.

This misses the point. James was urging his Christian audience that if they don't demonstrate their faith before others, it is useless. How so? Useless as a testimony to others.

James 2:18 - But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

This verse clarifies James' point. The person tells you that "you have faith" and that he has works. Then he challenges you to show or demonstrate your faith apart from works (which is impossible), and he will show you his faith by what he does (his works).

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Regarding the OP and the saved by faith and not works, is missing one dimension: the new life.

When one is born again, that is the beginning of the new life. Someone could agree to a statement but not trust God, what matters is the new life.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

James when speaking of dead faith was speaking of returning to the Egypt of observing the dead works of the law. As the audience of James were the Christian Jewish diaspora (see intro to James) this would be a temptation.

Churched kids have a similar temptation, to go through the motions of religious expression as Korban to not love your neighbour (all of them) as yourself.

 

[TheSeabass]

What the crowd was actually asking about was this: what does God require of us to have everlasting life?

The NIV says this: v.28 - Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Keep in mind what Jesus said initially: v.27 - Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

So, the context is eternal life; how one obtains it. And Jesus' answer is clear: to believe in the One He sent.


No, Jesus said to believe in the One He sent. v.29 - Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


Because that's what Jesus and paul both taught, as well as all the Bible writers.

Wow. You just rewrote the verse.

The content of the verse is:
Jesus told them to work for everlasting life
The people asked Jesus what work are they to do
Jesus answers by giving them the work of believing.

You rewrote the verse to take the words "work" and "do" from the context and replace it with "require".

The bible says = what work are we to do
Freegrace2 says= what is required of us

Not only did you rewrite the verse removing the words "work" and "do" replacing them with "required" you want Jesus answer to what is required to be "belief only" even though that is not in the original Greek either. Anyone trying to get Jesus to say 'belief only' is all that is required to be saved causes Jesus to contradict Himself for Jesus made repentance confession and baptism if equal importance and necessity to salvation:

Belief>>>>>>>>>not perish Jn 3:16
repent>>>>>>>>not perish Lk 13:3,5
confession>>>>>>saves Mt 10:32,33
baptism>>>>>>>>saves Mk 16;16

Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

Some people pull the phrase 'not of works' out of the context ISOLATE THIS PHRASE FROM ALL OTHER BIBLE VERSES then wrongly proclaim salvation is not of works. When left in context the 'not of works' refers to works of merit in flawless law keeping and does not refer to works of a faithful obedience to God. Paul proves in Rom 6:17,18 one first obeys fro the heart then is freed from sin...one obeys UNTO righteousness, Rom 6:16.

I find what He said was very clear. To obtain eternal life, one must believe in Christ (the One God sent).

Do you find clear:
1) Jesus said to WORK for the meat unto everlasting life?
2) Jesus called belief a WORK? (The bible ties faith to works so tightly that faith is a work, 1 Thess 1:3; Mk 2:1-5)
3) Jesus never told them to have belief only for that contradicts the fact Jesus made repentance confession and baptism of equal importance and necessity to salvation as believing?
4) the people asked what WORK must we DO and did not ask what was required of them? And that Jesus answered their question by giving them the work of believing to do?

That was exactly Paul's answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31 when the jailer asked him what he MUST DO to be saved:
30He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

1) Paul did NOT command him to have belief only, "only" is not in the Greek
2) at the time Paul told the jailer to believe (v31) Paul had not yet preached to him what to believe which comes in v32
3) after Paul preaches to the jailer we see the jailer is repentant (washed their stripes) and was baptized.
Verse 34 says "And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God." The participle phrase "having believed" would include the jailers repentance and being baptized.
Comparing Acts 2:41 with v44, those that "believed" in v44 were the ones baptized in v41 so "believed" in places in the bible is used as a synecdoche where it includes baptism.

The context and text is clear: to obtain etenral life, one must BELIEVE in the One God sent.

The entire gospel of John proves faith only. There are no verses in John that say faith plus works for eternal life. No where else, either.

No where does the NT gospel say one just needs to 'believe only' to be saved for that contradicts the verses that make repentance, confession and baptism of equal importance and necessity to salvation.

If belief only saves then you are implying the impenitent can be saved anyway, the one who will not confess Christ (denier of Christ) can be saved anyway, one that will not be baptized (will not glaldy receive the gospel message Acts 2:41) will be saved anyway.

 

[TheSeabass]

Good answer. iow, James is challenging his audience to live out their faith and not be hypocrites.

James is saying faith only is dead for it is void of works. And faith only REMAINS DEAD UNTIL works are done that is why James said WORKS justify and did NOT say a dead faith only justifies.


James------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
Paul-------obeying from the heart>>>>>>>>justifies

Neither ever said faith only justified but just the opposite.

In Rom 6:17,18 Paul said the Romans were:
1) servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (that doctrine being baptism of Rom 6:2-7)
3) then they were freed from sin they BECAME servants of righteousness.

Question: Can one be a servant to some thing that he does not do/practice? No.
Can one be a servant to cigarette smoking if he does not smoke cigarettes? No.
Can one be a servant of righteousness if he does no righteousness? No.
Therefore one is a servant of sin UNTIL he begins doing righteousness THEN he can be a servant of righteousness.

So how can you ever get a person that "worketh not" to ever be a servant of righteousness when he is not working any righteousness?

 

[TheSeabass]

Interwsting that the 2 previous verses were completely ignored. Or maybe just dodged. So I'll remind everyone of them:
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift ofGod— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

The 2 verses cleary stae that 'you have been saved through faith…not by works, so that on one can boast'.


Please provide any verse that clearly states that "impossible to remain saved if he does not do good works". I don't need these exact words, but words that make this claim clear and evident.


Why would anybody think John was speaking of remaining saved here? The context for John 1 is FELLOWSHIP. And fellowship is maintained through confession of sin (1:9).


I am quite interesting in what verses a re provided that communicate clearly that salvation must be maintained by the believer through works or anything else.

Jesus was clear in John 10:28 that God holds the believer; not the other way around, as your view insinuates.

Eph 2:9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

"Not of works" of Eph 2:9 and "worketh not" of Rom 4:4 refer to works of merit by flawless law keeping and not works of obedience per Rom 6:16-18; James 2:24. If one could have flawless kept the law thereby meriting his salvation then he would have something to boast about. One has nothing to boast about when he obeys the will of God. Heb 11:7 Noah was commanded to build an ark to the saving of his house. What did Noah have to boast about in his work of obeying God's will in building the ark to the saving of his house? Nothing. Heb 11:17 when Abraham did the work of offering Isaac,what did he have to boast about in doing this obedient work that justified him? Nothing.


IF we ASSUME for a moment that "not of works" of EPh 2:9 eliminates ALL works then that contradicts the very next verse, verse 10 that REQUIRES a Christian to do good works to maintain his salvation. God "before ordained" that Christians do good works therefore it is not possible for a person to become a Christ, yet never do any good works but be saved anyway. Those good works that God "before ordained" Christians to do are necessary for the Christian to maintain his salvation. So Eph 2:9 does not, cannot eliminate ALL works from salvation without creating a host of contradictions among bible verses...unless you can find a way to get around the works God "before ordained" Christians are to do...which you cannot do.


You requested that I "provide any verse that clearly states that "impossible to remain saved if he does not do good works".


Eph 2:10 is one verse that makes it impossible for a Christian to maintain his salvation without works.

Matt 25:31-46 is another passage that shows that disciples that lack good works will be lost.

1 Jn 1:7 requires the Christian to continually walk in the light (a work) for his ALL sins to be continually cleansed by the blood of Christ. If a Christian quits this work of walking, then all his sins will be unwashed and he will be lost in those uncleansed sins.

Above are three passages that prove a Christian must do works to maintain his salvation, I can provide more if needed.

1 Jn 1:7 is not simply about fellowship but is about how the Christian can keep ALL the sins he commits washed away so he can remain holy and without blame, without spot, Eph 1:4; 2 Pet 3:14. This continual cleansing away of all sins is about SALVATION because you will never find a way to get the Christian saved in his uncleansed sins.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Wow. You just rewrote the verse.

Wow. No, I didn't. I explained it.

The content of the verse is:
Jesus told them to work for everlasting life
The people asked Jesus what work are they to do
Jesus answers by giving them the work of believing.

They were to believe in Him for eternal life. Those who want to call that "working" are free to do so.

You rewrote the verse to take the words "work" and "do" from the context and replace it with "require".

They were asking what God required. And the NIV captured that nicely.

The bible says = what work are we to do
Freegrace2 says= what is required of us

Not only did you rewrite the verse removing the words "work" and "do" replacing them with "required" you want Jesus answer to what is required to be "belief only" even though that is not in the original Greek either.

Is your view really that Jesus told them to work AND to believe??? That was not what Jesus said to them. So who's rewriting?

Anyone trying to get Jesus to say 'belief only' is all that is required to be saved causes Jesus to contradict Himself for Jesus made repentance confession and baptism if equal importance and necessity to salvation:

Belief>>>>>>>>>not perish Jn 3:16
repent>>>>>>>>not perish Lk 13:3,5
confession>>>>>>saves Mt 10:32,33
baptism>>>>>>>>saves Mk 16;16[

Your view creates a contradiction between Paul and Jesus then. Which I thoroughly disagree. Paul's answer to the jailer's question resolves all argument.

Jailer: sirs, what MUST I DO to be saved?

Paul: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

It doesn't get any more clear than that.

Some people pull the phrase 'not of works' out of the context ISOLATE THIS PHRASE FROM ALL OTHER BIBLE VERSES then wrongly proclaim salvation is not of works.

It is DIRECTLY IN CONTEXT because salvation is NOT OF WORKS. It is amazing that one would deny that.

When left in context the 'not of works' refers to works of merit in flawless law keeping and does not refer to works of a faithful obedience to God.

Since "context" has been brought up, please show IN CONTEXT where Paul had referred to "works of merit in flawless law keeping".

Paul proves in Rom 6:17,18 one first obeys fro the heart then is freed from sin...one obeys UNTO righteousness, Rom 6:16.

This isn't context for Eph 2:8 and 9. Let's stick with the CONTEXT of Eph 2:8 and 9.

1) Paul did NOT command him to have belief only, "only" is not in the Greek

Then please show WHERE in the context of Acts 16:30 and 31 where Paul added works to be saved.

2) at the time Paul told the jailer to believe (v31) Paul had not yet preached to him what to believe which comes in v32

Excuse me, but Paul very clear and specifically told the jailer IN WHOM to believe. Aren't you familiar with the verse???

Paul's answer: Believe on the LORD JESUS CHRIST, and you will be saved.

3) after Paul preaches to the jailer we see the jailer is repentant (washed their stripes) and was baptized.
Verse 34 says "And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God." The participle phrase "having believed" would include the jailers repentance and being baptized.

You've made a lot of claims, all without any support or evidence of truth. How does "having believed" include repentance and baptism? Please prove your claim.

No where does the NT gospel say one just needs to 'believe only' to be saved for that contradicts the verses that make repentance, confession and baptism of equal importance and necessity to salvation.

The opposite is what is true: there are NO verses in the NT that says that one must believe and work for salvation.

If belief only saves then you are implying the impenitent can be saved anyway

I've already explained that repentance means a change of mind. In order to be saved, one must:
change their mind about their eternal destiny due to their sins, which is the lake of fire
change their mind about their inability to save themselves from the lake of fire
change their mind about what Christ did on the cross for their sins

If they don't change their mind about these things, they can't be saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So how can you ever get a person that "worketh not" to ever be a servant of righteousness when he is not working any righteousness?

That's the point: you can't.

But James' point is about hypocrisy. Which he gave a number of examples of. Which I explained.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Eph 2:9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

IF we ASSUME for a moment that "not of works" of EPh 2:9 eliminates ALL works then that contradicts the very next verse, verse 10 that REQUIRES a Christian to do good works to maintain his salvation.

It is very clear to me that your understanding of v.10 is a total misunderstanding. First, there is NOTHING in that verse that says that requires the believer to do good works to maintain his salvation. What words do you think mean that, since those words DON'T OCCUR there.

Second, the verse very plainly tells us that believers were created "unto good works". That doesn't mean 'required to maintain salvation' but that the believer, being a new creation (2 Cor 5:17) was created TO DO GOOD WORKS. And there is nothing in any of the context that says anythying about being "required to maintain salvation".

You requested that I "provide any verse that clearly states that "impossible to remain saved if he does not do good works".

Eph 2:10 is one verse that makes it impossible for a Christian to maintain his salvation without works.

As just explained, v.10 doesn't do that. FAILURE. Try again.

Matt 25:31-46 is another passage that shows that disciples that lack good works will be lost.

I've read the passage, and I don't see any words that SAY what is being claimed. So, please provide the exact words that you think mean what is being claimed, since NO WORDS are to that effect.

1 Jn 1:7 requires the Christian to continually walk in the light (a work) for his ALL sins to be continually cleansed by the blood of Christ. If a Christian quits this work of walking, then all his sins will be unwashed and he will be lost in those uncleansed sins.

Aside from being just a sentiment, what verse actually supports this claim? I see NO requirement to avoid being lost.

Above are three passages that prove a Christian must do works to maintain his salvation, I can provide more if needed.

LOL None have been provided yet.

1 Jn 1:7 is not simply about fellowship but is about how the Christian can keep ALL the sins he commits washed away so he can remain holy and without blame, without spot, Eph 1:4; 2 Pet 3:14.

Which is all about fellowship, whether one understands that or not.

This continual cleansing away of all sins is about SALVATION because you will never find a way to get the Christian saved in his uncleansed sins.

Please prove this claim. There are NO verses that say what is being claimed.

 

[RDKirk]

Actually, not true. Does a dead battery mean there is no battery?

We are speaking of scripture here, and we must speak as scripture speaks, as God views.

So "dead battery" does indeed mean "no battery." There may be a chunk of lead and plastic that purports hypocritically to be a battery, but there is no battery.

The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.--Matthew 3

Even now the ax of God's judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire -- Luke 9

Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. -- Luke 6

Is a fig tree that has no figs a fig tree? No it is not a fig tree, because it bears no figs to be known as a fig tree. It's firewood.

If it is not serving its purpose, then in God's view that's not what it is. The very definition of "hypocrite" is that it is not what it purports to be.

So, no, a chunk of lead and plastic that is labeled "battery" but does not have an electrical charge is not a battery. And faith that does not save is not faith. Any person who claims to be saved but does not display the fruit of the saved is not saved.

That's what James is saying. Nobody wants to hear that, because it's too clear and cold and gives everyone tooth-freeze, but that's what he's saying.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We are speaking of scripture here, and we must speak as scripture speaks, as God views.

Scripture uses many different kinds of metaphors to make a point. And a "dead battery" works just fine when dealing with James 2.

A dead battery doesn't mean "no battery". It means no functioning battery. iow, the battery is THERE, but just not functioning.

So "dead battery" does indeed mean "no battery." There may be a chunk of lead and plastic that purports hypocritically to be a battery, but there is no battery.

The battery IS there, just as a "dead body" per 2:26 is still THERE, but just not functioning. I'm so glad James wrote 2:26 so this kind of silliness can be avoided. Being dead doesn't mean never having existed, or not existing now. It has to do with function.

Is a fig tree that has no figs a fig tree? No it is not a fig tree, because it bears no figs to be known as a fig tree. It's firewood.

Scripture refutes your opinion. Jesus cursed a FIG TREE for having no figs on it. He didn't curse some "firewood". Nor did He burn it down.

If it is not serving its purpose, then in God's view that's not what it is.

It IS what it is, but it's not functioning as it's supposed to.

The very definition of "hypocrite" is that it is not what it purports to be.

n. noun
1. the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense

So, no, a chunk of lead and plastic that is labeled "battery" but does not have an electrical charge is not a battery.

So a dead body isn't a body, huh? Tell that to any mortician. They'll get a real good laugh out of that one. LOL

And faith that does not save is not faith.

Of course it is. It's just not functioning.

Any person who claims to be saved but does not display the fruit of the saved is not saved.

That's what James is saying. Nobody wants to hear that, because it's too clear and cold and gives everyone tooth-freeze, but that's what he's saying.

No, he's clearly NOT saying that. 2:18 clarifies exactly what he's saying. One cannot "show" or demonstrate their faith without deeds or works. Period. That is his point.

 

[TheSeabass]

It is very clear to me that your understanding of v.10 is a total misunderstanding. First, there is NOTHING in that verse that says that requires the believer to do good works to maintain his salvation. What words do you think mean that, since those words DON'T OCCUR there.

Second, the verse very plainly tells us that believers were created "unto good works". That doesn't mean 'required to maintain salvation' but that the believer, being a new creation (2 Cor 5:17) was created TO DO GOOD WORKS. And there is nothing in any of the context that says anythying about being "required to maintain salvation".

As just explained, v.10 doesn't do that. FAILURE. Try again.[/quote]
Eph 2:10 says God BEFORE ORDAINED Christians walk in good works. It is God's purpose Christian do good works meaning one cannot become a Christian, fail to do good works and be saved. You cannot undo what God BEFORE ORDAINED the good works Christians are to do. One that does not do good works is NOT a Christian for Christians do good works as ORDAINED by God.

I've read the passage, and I don't see any words that SAY what is being claimed. So, please provide the exact words that you think mean what is being claimed, since NO WORDS are to that effect.

How can it NOT be seen that in Matt 25 those disciples without good works were lost? How those that did NOT do the good works of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick were lost, thrown into everlasting punishment.
Do you only see in EPh 2:10 and Matt 25 what you want to see and nothing more?

Aside from being just a sentiment, what verse actually supports this claim? I see NO requirement to avoid being lost.


LOL None have been provided yet.


Which is all about fellowship, whether one understands that or not.


Please prove this claim. There are NO verses that say what is being claimed.

You try and reduce 1 Jn 1:7 to only being about "fellowship" and do not see, or will not see, the verse is about the Christian's sins being all cleansed away by the blood of Christ, which is about SALVATION. If the Christian quits walking in the light then all his sins are no longer cleansed away and he become lost in his unwashed sins. Eternal Securists always look for ways to keep the Christian saved in his uncleansed sins, but cannot find one.

 

[RDKirk]

Scripture uses many different kinds of metaphors to make a point. And a "dead battery" works just fine when dealing with James 2.

A dead battery doesn't mean "no battery". It means no functioning battery. iow, the battery is THERE, but just not functioning.

That would mean as long as there is a chunk of lead and plastic sitting in the car, no one ever needs to buy a new battery.

There is no point to arguing any point that something dead is of any effect or use, and that it makes any difference whether it's there or not. If it's dead, it's irrelevant to argue it even exists.

"Dead" faith is no faith at all because it's of no use at all.

You're arguing a point that is utterly and totally irrelevant.

 

[TheSeabass]

That's the point: you can't.

But James' point is about hypocrisy. Which he gave a number of examples of. Which I explained.

By answering "you can't" you just killed the faith only theology.

Faith only can NEVER get a person to be a servant of righteousness. The only way to become a servant of righteousness is by doing righteousness.

My sig line below from 1 Jn 3:10....he that continues to NOT do righteousness continues to NOT be of God.

The only way to be a servant of righteousness and be of God is by WORKING righteousness (Acts 10:35)


The context of James 2 does not support your theory James is talking about hypocrisy. James is talking about a obedient works that justify and for a faith to be a valid, viable faith it must have works for it remains dead as long as it remains without works. James uses Abraham and Rahab as examples of an obedient faith that justifies and did not use them as examples of "hypocrisy".

Lev 17:11 says "For the life of the flesh is in the blood:..."

Similarly the life of faith is in the works.

The flesh is dead without the blood as faith is dead without the works.
Remove the blood, kill the flesh. Remove the works, kill the faith.

To have physical life one must have both flesh and blood.
To have eternal life one must have both faith and works.

 

[TheSeabass]

Wow. No, I didn't. I explained it.

No, you rewrote it in order to PURPOSEFULLY leave the word "works" and "do " out for those type of words do not fit with the faith only theology.

Jesus told them to work for everlasting life.
They then asked what work they are to do.
Jesus gave them the work of believing.

No where does the context remotely say nor does the Greek support the idea that they asked what was required of them and Jesus told them "belief only". This only exists in the mind of those that hold to the man-made teaching of faith only.

They were to believe in Him for eternal life. Those who want to call that "working" are free to do so.

JESUS calls believing a work, it's a work that Jesus required one to do unto everlasting life.

They were asking what God required. And the NIV captured that nicely.

The NIV has:
27-Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
28-Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29-Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

The NIV uses the word "works" and "do". I do not see them asking "what is required of us" with Jesus answering "belief only"

Is your view really that Jesus told them to work AND to believe??? That was not what Jesus said to them. So who's rewriting?

Believing is the work Jesus gave them to do.

Again, they asked what WORK shall we DO?

Jesus answered by giving them the work of believing and did NOT answer their question by tell them to do no works lest they try and merit their salvation.I am beginning to see that your faith only theology prevents you from seeing what the passage really says and causes you to try and come up with a way to get WORKS and DO out of the context completely.

Your view creates a contradiction between Paul and Jesus then. Which I thoroughly disagree. Paul's answer to the jailer's question resolves all argument.

Jailer: sirs, what MUST I DO to be saved?

Paul: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

It doesn't get any more clear than that.

The man made teaching of faith only contradict both Jesus and Paul.

Nowhere ever did either teach faith only saves for both taught that repentance, confession and baptism are of equal importance to salvation as believing.

When you try and get one saved by belief only then you will find yourself striving to find a way to get one saved without repenting of his sins, without confessing Christ, without receiving the gospel message by being baptized.

It is DIRECTLY IN CONTEXT because salvation is NOT OF WORKS. It is amazing that one would deny that.

NOT ONE SINGLE VERSE says "salvation is without works". That idea is added to Eph 2:9.

The "not of works" refer to works of merit in flawless law keeping and does not apply to obedience for Paul says in Rom 6;17,18 that one OBEYED from the heart, then freed from sin. Obeyed first, then free from sin. Paul refutes the "salvation is not by works" idea of men.

Secondly, in Eph 2:8 Paul said one is saved by faith. Faith is a WORK (1 Thess 1:3; Mk 2:1-5). Paul did not require the work of faith in v8 then eliminate the work of faith in v9, that would be a clear contradiction.

Rom 5:1 says ---------faith>>>>>>justifies
James 2;24 says------works>>>>>justify

Since there is just ONE way to be justified/saved, no alternatives, then logically faith is a work that justifies.

Since "context" has been brought up, please show IN CONTEXT where Paul had referred to "works of merit in flawless law keeping".

In Rom 4:4 Paul spoke of flawless law keeping one does to make his reward of debt and not of grace and this is the same idea in EPh 2:9.

Paul already made the WORK of faith necessary in being saved in Eph 2:8 and would not then turn around and contradict that by eliminating ALL works from salvation. (Again, Rom 6;16,16 Paul put obeying BEFORE justification/free from sin)

Works of merit would be something one can boast about, but not obedience. No one can boast about having obeyed the will of God, not Noah or Abraham, Heb 11:7,17 had anything to boast about having obeyed God.

This isn't context for Eph 2:8 and 9. Let's stick with the CONTEXT of Eph 2:8 and 9.


Then please show WHERE in the context of Acts 16:30 and 31 where Paul added works to be saved.


Excuse me, but Paul very clear and specifically told the jailer IN WHOM to believe. Aren't you familiar with the verse???

Paul's answer: Believe on the LORD JESUS CHRIST, and you will be saved.


You've made a lot of claims, all without any support or evidence of truth. How does "having believed" include repentance and baptism? Please prove your claim.


The opposite is what is true: there are NO verses in the NT that says that one must believe and work for salvation.


I've already explained that repentance means a change of mind. In order to be saved, one must:
change their mind about their eternal destiny due to their sins, which is the lake of fire
change their mind about their inability to save themselves from the lake of fire
change their mind about what Christ did on the cross for their sins

If they don't change their mind about these things, they can't be saved.

You have not shown were Paul told the jailer to "believe only". You assume that into the context.

After Paul preached to the jailer he was repentant and was baptized, why? use repentance and baptism is what Paul preached to him. Nowhere doe the context say the jailer was commanded to have belief only and no where does the context say the jailer had belief only and saved by that belief only. Again, the participle phrase "having believed' of verse 34 INCLUDES the jailer's repentance and being baptized. Jurt as those who are said to have "believed" in Acts 2were the ones baptized in verse 41. Both cases "believed" included baptism and you have yet to prove otherwise. To claim the jailer "believed only" is to ignore the context that shows his repentance and being baptized.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Eph 2:10 says God BEFORE ORDAINED Christians walk in good works.

Yep, nothing about requiring for maintanence of salvation, as I already explained.

It is God's purpose Christian do good works meaning one cannot become a Christian, fail to do good works and be saved.

Confused. Yes, it is God's purpose that all believers do good works, but it certainly does NOT mean what you claim. There is NOTHING in the context to conclude what you've concluded.

How can it NOT be seen that in Matt 25 those disciples without good works were lost? How those that did NOT do the good works of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick were lost, thrown into everlasting punishment.
Do you only see in EPh 2:10 and Matt 25 what you want to see and nothing more?

The error in the "sheep and goat" parable is thinking that behavior or works resulted in either salvation or lake of fire. The sheep refer to BELIEVERS while goats refer to UNBELIEVERS. That is the issue throughout Scripture.

You try and reduce 1 Jn 1:7 to only being about "fellowship" and do not see, or will not see, the verse is about the Christian's sins being all cleansed away by the blood of Christ, which is about SALVATION.

Another assumption that being cleansed is about salvation when John was writing to already saved people. It is a gross error to see 1 Jn 1:9 as applying to salvation. No one is saved by confessing their sins. We are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8

If the Christian quits walking in the light then all his sins are no longer cleansed away and he become lost in his unwashed sins.

Except there are no verses in the Bible to support such a conclusion.

Eternal Securists always look for ways to keep the Christian saved in his uncleansed sins, but cannot find one.

I only look to Scripture for my understanding. And eternal life, a gift of God (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).