Gen 15:6 - Paul vs James

[EmSw]

That is what James is saying. That's why he asks, "If someone says they have faith, but has no works, can that faith save him?" In other words, if someone says they are a Christian, saved by faith, and there is no evidence of it in their lives, that is not saving faith.

Please tell me WHEN this person with faith, but without evidence of works, gets saved?

Is this true for everyone who is saved?

True and saving faith will result in works that prove we are Christians. Our profession of faith is justified by our works. Before God, and for all eternity, we are justified by faith alone. Before men, to prove to others that we are saved, our profession of faith is justified by our works.

How is it a true and saving faith without works? Above, you said those with faith, but without evidence of works are not saved.

 

[TheSeabass]

And you are misunderstanding what Jesus said, just like those people around Him when he made that statement. Did you read what He said later in that chapter? The people asked, "What must we do to do the works of God? Then Jesus replied, "This is the work of God, that you BELIEVE in the One He has sent." They were thinking the same thing you are thinking, that they could actually work to gain eternal life. Jesus corrected their misunderstanding. I hope you'll do the same.

Faith only advocates do not want to understand what Jesus said. Jesus plainly, clearly unambiguously said to LABOUR-WORK for the meat that endure unto everlasting life. LABOUR-WORK the exact opposite of faith only.

Jesus hearers understood Jesus told them to do a WORK as seen by the question they as in v28:
"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"

What shall we DO that we WORK


The answer Jesus gave to them asking what to DO, what WORK to DO:

Jesus gave them the work of believing to do This is the work of God, that YOU believe.
A faith only preacher would NOT have answer as Christ but instead tell them do no work lest they be trying to earn everlasting life.

Christ says to work
Faith only preacher says no works

The stark contrast between how Christ did answer the question and how a faith only preacher would answer it is very telling. It should throw up a red flag to people to quit listening to faith only preachers but listen to Christ instead.

Not where remotely in the context did Jesus tell them not to do any works but in fact Jesus said just the opposite telling them to WORK.

The rest of the context supports my position while refuting faith only.

 

[TheSeabass]

I already pointed out that the ONLY verse that says "not by faith alone" re: justification is in James, and I explained that. Which anyone is free to accept or reject.

How many verses must say one is NOT justified by faith only? Once, yet some people still will not believe it.

When EVERY verse other than James 2:24 says "by faith", it is no contradiction at all. And the context of James 2 isn't about God's justification, but our lives before others.

James is certainly talking about God's justification of man as in how GOD justified Abraham and how GOD justified Rahab.
It's just your theological bias does not want James writing about God justifying those that did obedient works.

What's an "impenitent person"? We're ALL sinners, and we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. Eph 2:8.

You do not know what an impenitent person is?
How can you tell us about justification if you do not even know what an impenitent person is?
Truth is, you know what an impenitent person is but avoided answering a simple "yes' or "no" question for you now find yourself now trying to find a way to get a person saved by belief only without repenting.

I'll ask again: can belief only save an impenitent person?

(A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.)

This is wrong, but I understand your opinion. If that is James position, he contradicted Paul.

James could not be more clear when he names two people by name Abraham and Rahab and how they were justified by their works. Faith only advocates look for ways to get around this.

Rom 4:5------belief>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justified
James 2------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justify

Since there is just one way to be saved/justified then belief is a work just as Jesus called belief a work in Jn 6:27-18, the work He gave His hearers to do. It all fits together perfectly while faith only creates a whole host of contradictions leaving you with "belief only" versus "repentance" in trying to find a way to get a person saved without repenting.

This isn't what the Bible says. Paul said that we are saved by faith, not by obedience.

James------works>>>>>>>>>>>>justify James 2:24
Paul------obey from the heart>>>>justify Rom 6:17,18

This is exactly what the bible says for there is no contradiction between James and Paul but harmony with both perfectly agreeing.

Paul also said in Rom 6:16:
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

You, me, all of us serve either one of two masters. We either serve;

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness.

I serve #2 obedience unto righteousness for James and Paul clearly say works/obeying>>>>>justifies.

Which do you serve? Your theology has ruled out option #2 for you.................uh oh.

 

[EmSw]

Faith only advocates do not want to understand what Jesus said. Jesus plainly, clearly unambiguously said to LABOUR-WORK for the meat that endure unto everlasting life. LABOUR-WORK the exact opposite of faith only.

Here is another place of which Jesus speaks of laboring -

Luke 13 -
23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them,
24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’

We had a discussion in another forum about Jesus not knowing those who called Him 'Lord Lord'. Here again, we see Jesus saying the same thing. Here are the verses from Matthew 7 -

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!

Here we see those who cried 'Lord Lord' did not enter the kingdom because they were practicing lawlessness. In the verses from Luke 13, we see those who cannot enter the gate (to the kingdom) because they did not STRIVE to enter this gate. Entering this gate is salvation as evidenced in Jesus answering the question, "Lord, are there few who are saved?"

We see the corresponding verses to Luke 13 in Matthew 7 -

13 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Here we see this narrow gate leads to life, and few who find it. Many will not enter because they did not strive to enter it. According to Strong's strive means

'to endeavour with strenuous zeal, strive: to obtain something'

We see to obtain eternal life, we must endeavor with zeal to obtain it. I'm afraid some will not be able to enter, even after crying 'Lord Lord' and seeking to enter; striving to enter life just doesn't fit their theology, nor their life.

 

[Winken]

Wow. What a thread.


Who was James writing to in James? (Hint: The earliest of the New Covenant books, to the ___ tribes of ___.)
What was James addressing to his audience?

Who was Paul writing to in Romans? (Hint: 15-18 years after James, to the ___ in ___.)
What was Paul addressing to his audience?

 

[RDKirk]

There is no contradiction in God's word. James was speaking the truth that a faith that doesn't do anything is no faith at all. When the Holy Spirit enters a person they are born-again spiritually and have a new life in Christ. If their new life is the exact same as their old one, we would be hard-pressed to say they were really born-again. Any man can say they have faith, but without evidence of God's Grace it is nothing but a useless and dead declaration from a carnal mind. Grace changes people in various measures, but change indeed it does!

Yes. This is the very hard thing to accept about James: He is saying point-blank that salvation fundamentally changes a person such that works are a necessary result of faith. James is saying there is no circumstance ever that a person has faith yet has no works. If there are no works, the person is simply not saved. Period.

There are always people who will want to say, "I've got faith," but James is saying, "If you really had faith, you would absolutely have works to show." James is saying that works are a necessary, absolute result of faith.

 

[Winken]

James says, in so many words, that if you are not demonstrating the faith you proclaim, your witness, your ministry, as a Christian member of the 12 Tribes of Israel, is lifeless. You aren't proclaming that which you have believed and received. He isn't saying that the absence of works for a Jewish Christian proves that one is lost, or could become lost (unsaved).

Past my bedtime........... G'Nite all .... be abundantly blessed in Him

 

[RDKirk]

James says, in so many words, that if you are not demonstrating the faith you proclaim, your witness, your ministry, as a Christian member of the 12 Tribes of Israel, is lifeless. You aren't proclaming that which you have believed and received. He isn't saying that the absence of works for a Jewish Christian proves that one is lost, or could become lost (unsaved).

Past my bedtime........... G'Nite all .... be abundantly blessed in Him

Now you have to explain how something that is declared dead can have any effect.

 

[Winken]

Now you have to explain how something that is declared dead can have any effect.

"lifeless" = has no impact, bears no fruit, sets no example. The fact that we are faith-full, born again, saved, is not being shared among our brethren and those who are lost.

 

[TheSeabass]

Wow. What a thread.


Who was James writing to in James? (Hint: The earliest of the New Covenant books, to the ___ tribes of ___.)
What was James addressing to his audience?

Who was Paul writing to in Romans? (Hint: 15-18 years after James, to the ___ in ___.)
What was Paul addressing to his audience?

Paul was writing to Jews in Rome who had become Christians. There were various issues with Jewish Christian Paul had to contend with several times, such as trying to keep those Jewish Christian from going back to keeping the OT law and the idea that one had to be circumcised to be saved (Acts 15:1-5).

In particular, chapter 4 of the Roman epistle Paul deals with these two issues. Paul shows the OT law made it impossible for one to have complete justification, the most it allowed for was flawless law keeping. If one could keep the law perfectly then he would have no sin and his reward is not of grace but of debt/merited (verse 4). Of course, no Jew could keep the law flawlessly and Paul uses Abraham (and David) as examples of men that "worketh not"....they did not try to keep the OT law flawlessly (both sinned) but both had an obedient faith by which each was justified.

Paul deals with the Jews holding on to circumcision issue in verses 10-12 demonstrating how Abraham was justified in uncircumcision. Therefore one does not need to be circumcised to be saved.


The "worketh not" of verse 5 gets pulled out of context and isolated from all others verses, then the claim is made salvation is not of works, when in reality, Paul was demonstrating Abraham was one who "worketh not" in flawless law keeping but instead had an obedient faith.

One other verse in Rom 4 that stands out (to me) is verse 12 "And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised."

I really love the notes Coffman's Commentary makes on verse 12. Here is what it says (in blue) (my emp):

Who also walk after the steps of that faith of our father Abraham ... These words mean "who have an obedient faith like Abraham." Abrahamic faith was not any such thing as faith ONLY, but it was a faith that walked after God's commandments, as pointed out under Romans 4:3; and Gentiles (or others) who would participate in the promise of salvation God gave through Abraham are here identified as those who "walk" in the steps of that faith, which is a way of saying they must have an obedient faith as did Abraham. Some of the so-called translations and modern speech renditions of the New Testament have butchered this verse by eliminating all reference to obedience:

For Abraham found favor with God by faith alone, before he was circumcised (The Living Word New Testament, paraphrased).

For those who have the faith of Abraham (NEB).

Because they live the same life of faith (The New Testament in Today's English).


The word "walk" or "tread" is in the Greek New Testament, and it should be in all valid translations of the word of God; but that expression is so obviously a reference to obedience that it cannot fit into the theories of salvation by faith alone; and the conviction persists that this fact influenced some of the so-called translations. It is admitted by all that Christians are saved by the same kind of faith Abraham had, before circumcision and the law; and a further study of the steps of Abraham's faith will reveal that obedience was coupled with it, and that it was by obedient faith that Abraham was justified.

Amazing how three PERversions of the bible purposefully mistranslated verse 12 to try and protect the man-made teaching of faith only.

 

[Winken]

Paul was writing to Jews in Rome who had become Christians.

I really appreciate that explicit response, in its entirety.

Question: Are you saying that we are saved by Grace through Faith, but that to continue therein, works are required?

Thanks!

 

[TheSeabass]

I really appreciate that explicit response, in its entirety.

Question: Are you saying that we are saved by Grace through Faith, but that to continue therein, works are required?

Thanks!

Works are required to become saved and works are required to remain saved.

Works required for those ALREADY a Christian (below verses):

Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

It's impossible for one who has become a Christian to remain saved if he does not do good works God before ordained Christians to walk in....see the judgment scene in Mt 25 between those disciples with and without goof works

1 Jn 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

The Christian must continue to walk in the light if all his sins are to be continually cleansed away by the blood of Christ

Rev 2:26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:"

The Christian must continue to keep Christ's works to overcome.

There are other verses I could refer to but once one becomes a Christian there are many works he MUST be, is required to participate in as in the above and carrying out Christ's great commission Mt 28:19,20; Mk 16:15,16. A Christian cannot expect to remain saved if he does not participate in the require/necessary works God has given to this group called Christian.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Faith only advocates do not want to understand what Jesus said. Jesus plainly, clearly unambiguously said to LABOUR-WORK for the meat that endure unto everlasting life. LABOUR-WORK the exact opposite of faith only.

Jesus hearers understood Jesus told them to do a WORK as seen by the question they as in v28:
"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"

What shall we DO that we WORK

The answer Jesus gave to them asking what to DO, what WORK to DO:

Jesus gave them the work of believing to do This is the work of God, that YOU believe.
A faith only preacher would NOT have answer as Christ but instead tell them do no work lest they be trying to earn everlasting life.

What the crowd was actually asking about was this: what does God require of us to have everlasting life?

The NIV says this: v.28 - Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Keep in mind what Jesus said initially: v.27 - Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

So, the context is eternal life; how one obtains it. And Jesus' answer is clear: to believe in the One He sent.

Christ says to work

No, Jesus said to believe in the One He sent. v.29 - Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Faith only preacher says no works

Because that's what Jesus and paul both taught, as well as all the Bible writers.

Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

The stark contrast between how Christ did answer the question and how a faith only preacher would answer it is very telling.

I find what He said was very clear. To obtain eternal life, one must believe in Christ (the One God sent).

That was exactly Paul's answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31 when the jailer asked him what he MUST DO to be saved:
30He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”


[/QUOTE]It should throw up a red flag to people to quit listening to faith only preachers but listen to Christ instead.
Not where remotely in the context did Jesus tell them not to do any works but in fact Jesus said just the opposite telling them to WORK.
The rest of the context supports my position while refuting faith only.[/QUOTE]
The context and text is clear: to obtain etenral life, one must BELIEVE in the One God sent.

The entire gospel of John proves faith only. There are no verses in John that say faith plus works for eternal life. No where else, either.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How many verses must say one is NOT justified by faith only? Once, yet some people still will not believe it.

I've already explained what James meant. It does NOT mean to be justified in God's eyes. James 2 is all about the believer's life before others.

You do not know what an impenitent person is?
How can you tell us about justification if you do not even know what an impenitent person is?
Truth is, you know what an impenitent person is but avoided answering a simple "yes' or "no" question for you now find yourself now trying to find a way to get a person saved by belief only without repenting.

One must always clarify when the posts of others is obtuse.

I'll ask again: can belief only save an impenitent person?

(A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.)

From the answer given, I will take "impenitent" as unrepentant. Here's the Biblical fact. The Greek word for 'repent' is metanoia, and means change of mind. Until one changes their mind about their own need for salvation from the lake of fire, and change their mind about their own inability to save themself from the lake of fire, and change their mind about what Christ did for their sins on the cross, and ACCEPT what He did on their behalf, no, they cannot be saved.

Rom 4:5------belief>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justified
James 2------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justify

Seems to be claiming that belief and works are equivalent. yet, Rom 4:4,5 differentiates works from faith, as does Eph 2:8,9.

Since there is just one way to be saved/justified then belief is a work just as Jesus called belief a work in Jn 6:27-18, the work He gave His hearers to do. It all fits together perfectly while faith only creates a whole host of contradictions leaving you with "belief only" versus "repentance" in trying to find a way to get a person saved without repenting.

I seem to be seeing some word games here. If "belief is a work", then that is the only work. So faith alone people are still right.

 

[FreeGrace2]

James says, in so many words, that if you are not demonstrating the faith you proclaim, your witness, your ministry, as a Christian member of the 12 Tribes of Israel, is lifeless. You aren't proclaming that which you have believed and received. He isn't saying that the absence of works for a Jewish Christian proves that one is lost, or could become lost (unsaved).

Past my bedtime........... G'Nite all .... be abundantly blessed in Him

Good answer. iow, James is challenging his audience to live out their faith and not be hypocrites.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Now you have to explain how something that is declared dead can have any effect.

That's exactly the point of James. There is no effect when one doesn't live out their faith before others. There is only the condemnation of being a hypocrite.

James 2:15,16 is a clear example of a huge hypocrite. Says one thing, but does something completely different and contradictory to what he says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Works are required to become saved and works are required to remain saved.

Works required for those ALREADY a Christian (below verses):

Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Interwsting that the 2 previous verses were completely ignored. Or maybe just dodged. So I'll remind everyone of them:
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift ofGod— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

The 2 verses cleary stae that 'you have been saved through faith…not by works, so that on one can boast'.

It's impossible for one who has become a Christian to remain saved if he does not do good works God before ordained Christians to walk in....see the judgment scene in Mt 25 between those disciples with and without goof works

Please provide any verse that clearly states that "impossible to remain saved if he does not do good works". I don't need these exact words, but words that make this claim clear and evident.

1 Jn 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

The Christian must continue to walk in the light if all his sins are to be continually cleansed away by the blood of Christ

Why would anybody think John was speaking of remaining saved here? The context for John 1 is FELLOWSHIP. And fellowship is maintained through confession of sin (1:9).

There are other verses I could refer to but once one becomes a Christian there are many works he MUST be, is required to participate in as in the above and carrying out Christ's great commission Mt 28:19,20; Mk 16:15,16. A Christian cannot expect to remain saved if he does not participate in the require/necessary works God has given to this group called Christian.

I am quite interesting in what verses a re provided that communicate clearly that salvation must be maintained by the believer through works or anything else.

Jesus was clear in John 10:28 that God holds the believer; not the other way around, as your view insinuates.

 

[EmSw]

I am quite interesting in what verses a re provided that communicate clearly that salvation must be maintained by the believer through works or anything else.

Let me quote you on this one FG2. In post 56, you said the following:

"That's exactly the point of James. There is no effect when one doesn't live out their faith before others. There is only the condemnation of being a hypocrite."

At what point is one not a hypocrite? It seems you're saying it is not just believing that saves, but also living out their faith. Is this correct? I also take everyone who first believes is a hypocrite, until they live out their faith. Is this also correct?

James asks a couple of questions in which I would like you to answer, FG2.

James 2:14 -
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works?
Can that faith save him?

So FG2, what use is it if someone says he has faith but has no works?

And secondly, can that faith save him?

I will add a third question James asked. In verse 20 he asks -

But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, faith without works is useless?

If you would answer these three questions, I would appreciate it FG2. Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this:
"I am quite interesting in what verses are provided that communicate clearly that salvation must be maintained by the believer through works or anything else."

Let me quote you on this one FG2. In post 56, you said the following:

"That's exactly the point of James. There is no effect when one doesn't live out their faith before others. There is only the condemnation of being a hypocrite."

What I said doesn't equate to my question. The question is what verses communicate clearly that salvation must be maintained by the believer through works anything else? Are there any?

At what point is one not a hypocrite?

When one live out their lives according to Scripture.

It seems you're saying it is not just believing that saves, but also living out their faith. Is this correct?[/QUOET]
Absolutely not!! Believing alone is what saves, with many verses saying that one is saved by faith. James' concern was believers that weren't living out their lives by their faith.

I also take everyone who first believes is a hypocrite, until they live out their faith. Is this also correct?

No. One who "first believes" is a very new believer, a baby believer, who has a lot to learn in their Christian walk. Not too many new believers look like Christians. But through spiritual growth, it becomes apparent. Even spiritually mature believers can be hypocrites. King David is just one example; as a mature believer, he committed adultery and tried to cover it up by murdering Uriah. What a hypocrite.

James asks a couple of questions in which I would like you to answer, FG2.

James 2:14 -
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works?
Can that faith save him?

So FG2, what use is it if someone says he has faith but has no works?

It's of no use. Meaning, if that one has no evidence (works) that he is a Christian, no one else will be able to see it in him. The same concept is seen in the phrase "be Christ-like". Who will be able to see Christ in the believer unless that believer demonstrates their faith to others?

And secondly, can that faith save him?

No, it won't save him from the charge of being a hypocrite. James 2:15,16 gives a very specific example of one who is a hypocrite.

I will add a third question James asked. In verse 20 he asks -

But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, faith without works is useless?

If you would answer these three questions, I would appreciate it FG2. Thanks.

It is useless in the sense that the believer who isn't living out their faith or demonstrating their faith to others is useless for claiming to be a Christian. iow, it's useless to claim to be a Christian if there is no evidence.

 

[EmSw]

I asked this:
"I am quite interesting in what verses are provided that communicate clearly that salvation must be maintained by the believer through works or anything else."

What I said doesn't equate to my question. The question is what verses communicate clearly that salvation must be maintained by the believer through works anything else? Are there any?

When one live out their lives according to Scripture.

Here is what you said again - 'There is no effect when one doesn't live out their faith before others. There is only the condemnation of being a hypocrite.'

What do you mean by 'no effect'? What do mean by 'condemnation'?

When I asked at what point is one NOT a hypocrite, you answered, 'when one lives out their lives according to Scripture'. As I believe, salvation is how one lives his/her life, which you seem to agree, although you won't come right out and say it. Salvation is new way of life. If one chooses to stay in their old life, it has no effect, as you say.

I would also like to point something else out you said in a previous post. I asked James' question about whether a faith without works can save a man. You said, 'no, it won't save him from the charge of being a hypocrite.' I'm sorry, but nothing is said in James about a hypocrite. You have conveniently added it.

Charge of a hypocrite, huh? What imaginative answers you have, FG2. This definitely reeks of desperation for an answer. Please try again - from what does faith save a man? What does James call faith which has no works? How can a dead faith save anyone?

James gives an example in the last verse of chapter 2 -

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What can the body do without the spirit? Go ahead, name something, anything. Can it believe without the spirit? Can it think without the spirit? Can it reach out to Jesus without the spirit? As James said, it is useless, iow, it is of no use for anything, even believing.