Gen 15:6 - Paul vs James

[bcbsr]

According to Paul, a person is justified by faith alone apart from works, that is, prior to doing any work, a person is justified simply by believing in Jesus.

Paul made this clear in his statements in Rom 4:2-6

"if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Gen 15:6) Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works"​

In contrast James view a man as not being justified by faith alone, but is only justified when he adds works to his faith. That is to him salvation is contingent upon faith+works.

He makes this clear in the second half of the second chapter of his letter. "But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Gen 15:6) And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." ​

Both Paul and James mention Gen 15:6, so both are referring to the same concept of being accounted righteous, what we call "justification". While Paul's argument is contingent upon interpreting Gen 15:6 as being fulfilled right then in Gen 15:6, prior to Abraham's work, James' argument is contingent upon viewing Gen 15:6 as a prediction which was not fulfilled until Gen 22 when Abraham attempted to sacrifice Isaac (a work), prior to which according to James, his faith was "dead".

While Protestants attempt to resolve this contradiction by misreading James, and Catholics attempt to resolve this contradiction by misreading Paul, in fact Paul and James have incompatible views concerning requirements for justification.

Paul, an apostle chosen personally by Jesus Christ, and even agreed upon by James along with the other apostles in Acts 15 as being the apostle to the Gentiles, trumps James, who is not an apostle of Jesus Christ.

Are there any other opinions concerning Paul and James' interpretation of Gen 15:6?

 

[YESLORDIWILL]

Paul, an apostle chosen personally by Jesus Christ, and even agreed upon by James along with the other apostles in Acts 15 as being the apostle to the Gentiles, trumps James, who is not an apostle of Jesus Christ.

Acts 15:7, And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

 

[Steeno7]

Are there any other opinions concerning Paul and James' interpretation of Gen 15:6?

My concern is more with people's interpretation of James. The clear and unambiguous truth declared by God in Romans is that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. James is not contradicting that, rather he is affirming faith as the true means of our relationship with God. Genuine faith. Faith in Jesus Christ, which is faith that is alive with the activity of the living Lord and Savior. His argument is not for works, but for genuine faith. And genuine faith is faith that will be demonstrated in actions. It is that genuineness that is the basis for our being declared righteous in the sight of God.

 

[seekingsolace]

Paul asserted that faith is the means of salvation, James asserted that works are part of a true believer. Doesn't negate either message; salvation through faith, works are fruit of the Spirit.

 

[bcbsr]

Acts 15:7, And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Yes Paul says in Gal 2:9 "James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews." At that point Peter and the other apostles forsook the Lords command to them concerning the Great Commission. So while the Lord used Peter to initiate the gospel to the Gentiles, namely to Cornelius, it appears he relinquished that calling in favor of Paul.

Need I point that it's not apostles, and certainly not James, who is not an apostle, who can relinquish such a calling. Jesus Christ is LORD, not Peter, not James (Thus Paul speaks in a deragatory manner in Galatians of such events) And while Peter agreed with Paul at that meeting (Read Acts 15), James stepped in to undermine the gospel, imposing arbitrary regulations upon the Gentiles as a condition for salvation.

 

[bcbsr]

Paul asserted that faith is the means of salvation, James asserted that works are part of a true believer. Doesn't negate either message; salvation through faith, works are fruit of the Spirit.

Note that in coming up with such an assertion you avoided using any scripture, and in particular you avoided commenting on the ACTUAL QUESTION I asked concerning their incompatible views of Gen 15:6.

Maybe you could elaborate on THAT QUESTION.

Thanks

 

[seekingsolace]

Note that in coming up with such an assertion you avoided using any scripture, and in particular you avoided commenting on the ACTUAL QUESTION I asked concerning their incompatible views of Gen 15:6.

Maybe you could elaborate on THAT QUESTION.

Thanks

Scriptures already posted, I highlighted the difference. I assumed it was clear enough for all to see that it is in fact compatible.

 

[YESLORDIWILL]

Yes Paul says in Gal 2:9 "James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews." At that point Peter and the other apostles forsook the Lords command to them concerning the Great Commission. So while the Lord used Peter to initiate the gospel to the Gentiles, namely to Cornelius, it appears he relinquished that calling in favor of Paul.

Need I point that it's not apostles, and certainly not James, who is not an apostle, who can relinquish such a calling. Jesus Christ is LORD, not Peter, not James (Thus Paul speaks in a deragatory manner in Galatians of such events)

I love my pastor, he's just such a humble man. There have been times that those under his authority have risen up against him, telling him to his face, occasionally in front of a group of people, that he was wrong.

Even when the rest of us can see he's not wrong, in his wisdom, he doesn't try to justify himself, or work to prove that he is innocent. Instead, he says not a word, just prays and loves. Oftentimes calling those who have defamed him in the past "beloved brother" later on, sounds like something Jesus might do... I just love my pastor.

(Matthew 16:18-19)

 

[FreeGrace2]

According to Paul, a person is justified by faith alone apart from works, that is, prior to doing any work, a person is justified simply by believing in Jesus.

Paul made this clear in his statements in Rom 4:2-6

"if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Gen 15:6) Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works"​

In contrast James view a man as not being justified by faith alone, but is only justified when he adds works to his faith. That is to him salvation is contingent upon faith+works.

He makes this clear in the second half of the second chapter of his letter. "But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Gen 15:6) And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."​

​

There is much confusion and misunderstanding of James 2:14-26. When he asked, "can that faith (without works) save?", he wasn't speaking of eternal salvation. If he were, then he would have been contradicting the rest of the Bible, esp Paul. So we need to understand what his point was in that passage. It was about hypocrisy, or rather, the need to not be a hypocrite. The example he gave in 2:15,16 very clearly describes a hypocrite; one who says one thing, but acts in a totally contrary manner.

2:18 makes the point that it is impossible to demonstrate your faith apart from works. iow, how does man "see" our faith? Since mankind isn't omniscient, we depend upon works to demonstrate our faith to others. God doesn't need to see one's faith to know it exists. But man does need to see one's faith, and that is on the basis of one's works.

James was definitely NOT saying that one needs works with faith in order to be saved. If he were, then he would be contradicting the rest of the Bible. So we have to understand that he couldn't possibly be saying that.

So, the question is: "saved from what, specifically?" Because he point was about not being a hypocrite, he wanted his readers to be saved, or delivered, or rescued from the charge of hypocrisy. Which the example clearly illustrates.

James, the Lord's half brother, was very familiar with His teachings. We know how many times He called the Pharisees hypocrites. Many. It makes sense that James was concerned that believers weren't living out their faith in front of others. That is hypocrisy, and he didn't want the believers to be branded hypocrites.

There is nothing more effective at ruining one's character or reputation than being seen as a hypocrite. James was trying to warn his readers about that. I know he never used the word, but look at all of ch 2 and 3:1-12. All of it is about hypocrisy. 2:1-13 is about how believers treated a rich man vs a poor man; favoritism is hypocrisy. 2:14-26 is about not living our your faith before others. 3:1-12 is about the hypocrisy of how believers use their tongue; in what they say, which is again, hypocrisy.

While Protestants attempt to resolve this contradiction by misreading James, and Catholics attempt to resolve this contradiction by misreading Paul, in fact Paul and James have incompatible views concerning requirements for justification.

The issue is completely resolved when one realizes that Paul was speaking of justification in the eyes of God, while James was speaking of justification in the eyes of others. In no way is man justified the way God justifies by other men. I'm not saying that. I am only saying that if believers live out our faith before others, we will NOT be branded hypocrites. That means we are justified in their eyes. It is when believers are being hypocrites before others that we are not justified in their eyes, and they see us as hypocrites.

Paul, an apostle chosen personally by Jesus Christ, and even agreed upon by James along with the other apostles in Acts 15 as being the apostle to the Gentiles, trumps James, who is not an apostle of Jesus Christ.

No one trumped the other. They weren't speaking about the same kind or type of justification.

Are there any other opinions concerning Paul and James' interpretation of Gen 15:6?

There are a number of verses that supports the idea that James was concerned about how believers live their lives before others.

Rom 12:17 - Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
This verse specifically notes the perspective of others.

Rom 14:18 - For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
This verse directly notes how our lifestyle is acceptable/approved by God and by men.

2 Cor 5:12 - We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart.
Man cannot see the heart; only God can, which is where our faith is. So, by living our our faith, we have an answer for those who take pride in appearance.

2 Cor 8:21 - for we have regard for what is honorable, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.
This could not be more clear: in the sight of the Lord (for justification) and in the sight of men (for their approval or justification).

1 Tim 3:7 - And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Clearly speaking of having a good testimony before others (outside the church-unbelievers), which avoids the charge of hypocrisy.

1 Thess 4:12 - so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.
Ditto

1 Pet 2:12 - Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.
Clearly Peter is emphasizing that believers who live out their faith, not being hypocrites, will have a positive effect upon unbelievers.

1 Jn 3:18 - Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
This is directly linked to James 2:15,16; the example of the believer who told people "be warmed and filled" but didn't do anything to meet their needs. He was a blatant hypocrite. iow, he "loved only with word or tongue", but definitely not "in deed and truth".

 

[FreeGrace2]

I love my pastor, he's just such a humble man. There have been times that those under his authority have risen up against him, telling him to his face, occasionally in front of a group of people, that he was wrong.

Even when the rest of us can see he's not wrong, in his wisdom, he doesn't try to justify himself, or work to prove that he is innocent. Instead, he says not a word, just prays and loves. Oftentimes calling those who have defamed him in the past "beloved brother" later on, sounds like something Jesus might do... I just love my pastor.

(Matthew 16:18-19)

There are a number of ways to deal with the obnoxious. While Jesus was loving, He never hesitated to call a spade a spade. How many times did He call the Pharisees "hypocrites"? Many. And to the Sadducees, He directly told them they were wrong.

We know from John 1:1 and 1 John 1:1 that Jesus is the Living Word, and the written Word is the "mind of Christ" (1 Cor 2:16). And Scripture says: 10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. 12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith. Titus 1:10-12.

 

[DeepWater]

According to Paul, a person is justified by faith alone apart from works, that is, prior to doing any work, a person is justified simply by believing in Jesus.

Paul made this clear in his statements in Rom 4:2-6

"if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Gen 15:6) Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works"​

In contrast James view a man as not being justified by faith alone, but is only justified when he adds works to his faith. That is to him salvation is contingent upon faith+works.

He makes this clear in the second half of the second chapter of his letter. "But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Gen 15:6) And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." ​

Both Paul and James mention Gen 15:6, so both are referring to the same concept of being accounted righteous, what we call "justification". While Paul's argument is contingent upon interpreting Gen 15:6 as being fulfilled right then in Gen 15:6, prior to Abraham's work, James' argument is contingent upon viewing Gen 15:6 as a prediction which was not fulfilled until Gen 22 when Abraham attempted to sacrifice Isaac (a work), prior to which according to James, his faith was "dead".

While Protestants attempt to resolve this contradiction by misreading James, and Catholics attempt to resolve this contradiction by misreading Paul, in fact Paul and James have incompatible views concerning requirements for justification.

Paul, an apostle chosen personally by Jesus Christ, and even agreed upon by James along with the other apostles in Acts 15 as being the apostle to the Gentiles, trumps James, who is not an apostle of Jesus Christ.

Are there any other opinions concerning Paul and James' interpretation of Gen 15:6?

The issue isn't so much works or faith, or showing works by faith, or faith alone justifies.
The issue is when people are trusting in Faith, instead of trusting in GOD who justifies thru the blood atonement.

Its the wrong emphasis on "saving faith", instead of the "Cross".

Remember that Paul, and no other apostle was taken aside by the Lord and given the revelation of the "Grace of God".
And then, remember that Paul said that i "preach Christ crucified", as the Gospel, and THEN he explains that its faith IN THIS, that Saves, and not faith in faith, that saves.

Big distinction, and once a person grasps it, then their """is it faith alone or is it works + faith"" >wrong focus< begins to dissolve and finally does, and what is left is the understanding of WHO justified you, and by WHAT means.

 

[nobdysfool]

The issue isn't so much works or faith, or showing works by faith, or faith alone justifies.
The issue is when people are trusting in Faith, instead of trusting in GOD who justifies thru the blood atonement.

Its the wrong emphasis on "saving faith", instead of the "Cross".

Remember that Paul, and no other apostle was taken aside by the Lord and given the revelation of the "Grace of God".
And then, remember that Paul said that i "preach Christ crucified", as the Gospel, and THEN he explains that its faith IN THIS, that Saves, and not faith in faith, that saves.

Big distinction, and once a person grasps it, then their """is it faith alone or is it works + faith"" >wrong focus< begins to dissolve and finally does, and what is left is the understanding of WHO justified you, and by WHAT means.

Interesting. So, if I'm understanding what you're saying, faith, being something that we do, is the wrong focus when it comes to Salvation. The correct focus is What He has done. It is God who saves us, all we can bring to the table is faith in Him (and even that is, at least in part, granted by God).

Faith is the expression of the converted heart to what He has done, and the means by which it is applied to us. But the messages is what He has done, not so much our response to it. The response is the outworking and result of the preaching of the message of what God and Christ have done. And, in the proper focus, good works will follow naturally.

Or did I miss your point?

 

[Open Heart]

Are there any other opinions concerning Paul and James' interpretation of Gen 15:6?

You are very brave to say they contradict one another. I don't have that freedom as a Catholic.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

According to Paul, a person is justified by faith alone apart from works, that is, prior to doing any work, a person is justified simply by believing in Jesus.

Paul made this clear in his statements in Rom 4:2-6

"if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Gen 15:6) Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works"​

In contrast James view a man as not being justified by faith alone, but is only justified when he adds works to his faith. That is to him salvation is contingent upon faith+works.

He makes this clear in the second half of the second chapter of his letter. "But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Gen 15:6) And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." ​

Both Paul and James mention Gen 15:6, so both are referring to the same concept of being accounted righteous, what we call "justification". While Paul's argument is contingent upon interpreting Gen 15:6 as being fulfilled right then in Gen 15:6, prior to Abraham's work, James' argument is contingent upon viewing Gen 15:6 as a prediction which was not fulfilled until Gen 22 when Abraham attempted to sacrifice Isaac (a work), prior to which according to James, his faith was "dead".

While Protestants attempt to resolve this contradiction by misreading James, and Catholics attempt to resolve this contradiction by misreading Paul, in fact Paul and James have incompatible views concerning requirements for justification.

Paul, an apostle chosen personally by Jesus Christ, and even agreed upon by James along with the other apostles in Acts 15 as being the apostle to the Gentiles, trumps James, who is not an apostle of Jesus Christ.

Are there any other opinions concerning Paul and James' interpretation of Gen 15:6?

There is no contradiction in God's word. James was speaking the truth that a faith that doesn't do anything is no faith at all. When the Holy Spirit enters a person they are born-again spiritually and have a new life in Christ. If their new life is the exact same as their old one, we would be hard-pressed to say they were really born-again. Any man can say they have faith, but without evidence of God's Grace it is nothing but a useless and dead declaration from a carnal mind. Grace changes people in various measures, but change indeed it does!

 

[bcbsr]

There is no contradiction in God's word. James was speaking the truth that a faith that doesn't do anything is no faith at all.

So you're saying that since Abraham had faith but no works all the way from Gen 15:6 till Gen 22, therefore Abraham had no faith until Gen 22? So you don't believe Paul?

 

[ClothedInGrace]

So you're saying that since Abraham had faith but no works all the way from Gen 15:6 till Gen 22, therefore Abraham had no faith until Gen 22? So you don't believe Paul?

No, he did have works. He followed God and went to a land he had never been to before.

 

[bcbsr]

No, he did have works. He followed God and went to a land he had never been to before.

That was prior to the promise of Gen 15:5 even being given. So how can Abraham have acted upon the promise of Gen 15:5 prior to being given the promise of Gen 15:5? Paul's argument in Romans 4 was that upon Abraham believing the promise of Gen 15:5, which occurred in Gen 15:6, Abraham was justified by faith without regards to any work he had done. For between Gen 15:5 and Gen 15:6 Abraham did no work. And thus Paul says,

"If Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works"

Do you believe Paul? Or do you believe James? For James writes that the Abraham was not justified by faith alone. He was not justified until Gen 22 when he acted on his faith. That's when James says Gen 15:6 was fulfilled. Prior to that (from Gen 15:5 till Gen 22) Abraham had faith in the promise of Gen 15:5 but hadn't acted upon it. James' argument is that justification requires not only faith, but it requires a person to act on their faith before they can be justified. If they just have faith but haven't acted upon it, James indicates their faith is dead and such doesn't save a person.

And that's Catholicism

Catholic Council of Trent
6th Session

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

To reconcile Paul and James Catholicism interprets Paul in light of James, while Protestants interpret James in light of Paul. But the fact is Paul and James contradict each other. And James, not being an apostle chosen by Jesus Christ, he doesn't have authority to establish fundamental doctrine, particularly regarding the gospel. Nepotism doesn't trump apostleship.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Faith justifies, not works. But a faith that doesn't work is no faith at all. I am sorry but I will not deny James or Paul, they are both inspired.

 

[bcbsr]

Faith justifies, not works. But a faith that doesn't work is no faith at all. I am sorry but I will not deny James or Paul, they are both inspired.

But the thing is you're denying James. You're reading into James that which he didn't actually write. So if you're going to claim to believe James, show that you can honestly interpret what he ACTUALLY SAID.

Was Gen 15:6 not fulfilled until Gen 22 as James proposes?

 

[Brother Chris]

It's very simple. Paul talks about how we are saved. James talks about the evidence of salvation. They do not contradict each other.