Gay Marriage

[KingCrimson250]

Well it's an example because they're both taken from the same "list" in the Law - in Leviticus they are grouped together. Therefore it doesn't really seem reasonable to take one out of that list and say that the OT law no longer applies for it, while still being alright with the other one being sin, especially since they both seem to have the same theological principle backing them.

You could make a lot of the same arguments in favour of inappropriate behavior with animals as well ("If a man truly loves an animal who are we to stand in the way of it... If God thought inappropriate behavior with animals was a sin He wouldn't have created people who have urges like that... God is a God of love and tolerance and we shouldn't call someone else's sexual preferences sinful just because they involve animals..."). I understand completely where your trepidation comes from, though.

 

[Tissue]

Well it's an example because they're both taken from the same "list" in the Law - in Leviticus they are grouped together. Therefore it doesn't really seem reasonable to take one out of that list and say that the OT law no longer applies for it, while still being alright with the other one being sin, especially since they both seem to have the same theological principle backing them.

They don't have the same theological principle backing them.

Just because a list is generated doesn't mean all items in that list must be treated exactly the same for all eternity.

 

[KingCrimson250]

No, but the idea is that it is the list of sexual sins (thus a proposed theological principle: honouring God through sexuality). Why would it be a sin at that point, but no longer sinful today?

Like I said, I would willingly accept that homosexuality is a contextual sin if I heard a convincing argument for it, but generally this isn't addressed.

 

[Tissue]

No, but the idea is that it is the list of sexual sins (thus a proposed theological principle: honouring God through sexuality). Why would it be a sin at that point, but no longer sinful today?

Cultural progress. Perhaps we have mistranslated pieces of Scripture. Perhaps 'abomination' requires a more subtle glance.

I mean, think about it. How does homosexual love (the committed, monogamous type that heterosexuals hold as the 'ideal') actually hurt anyone? How is it sinful?

For every sin, there is a very strong reason why it is a sin. Murder is destructive. Lying is divisive and false. Adultery is divisive and a betrayal of trust. But homosexual love? How is love evil?

 

[KingCrimson250]

That's a good question. The immediate notion that springs to my mind is homosexuality being a sin of rebellion - of God specifically creating romantic love to be between a man and a woman, and homosexuality being a way of saying "Sorry God, not interested, we'll do it this way instead." Love can be evil in all kinds of ways, no matter who it's between. If you love your spouse more than you love God, for example, that would be a sin. If you love someone in a way that is selfish or conditional, that also falls short of the mark. I think the Biblical idea here is that God has a specific plan for marriage and sexuality and to deviate from it is to deviate from His will.

But I will think about it some more.

Also, an immediate question that springs to mind is: How does inappropriate behavior with animals actually hurt anyone? How is that evil? Again I'm not trying to equate the two but it does beg the question: Can one be acceptable with the other remaining sinful?

I do think that homosexuality is something that is over-rotated upon. If it is a sin, it is not the huge, unforgiveable sin that many Christians make it out to be, but just a normal sin like any other. I don't understand the hatred that goes out towards homosexuals, I think that it is quite irrational. I personally am fine with it, but it seems to me that God is the greatest thing there is, and I want to serve Him and be in line with His will, and as far as I can tell, the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin. That being said, it's something that I'm maybe 65-35 on - I believe it is a sin but I have heard good arguments justifying it as being acceptable so in my mind the case isn't quite closed yet.

 

[Nadiine]

Call it splitting hairs - but um...I dont see how you can use inappropriate behavior with animals as an example. Not saying that you think its the same thing...just a bit...you know...eesh.

inappropriate behavior with animals is easily seen as a sin cos its with a non consenting species, we dont do interspecies.

consenting species also engage in willful adultery, incest, partner swapping, selling their bodies for inappropriate content and prostitution, participate in public nudity, give each other harmful drugs, get drunk together, sex with minors....
I know of mom's who gave consent to their daughters to be in nude pictures,
1 mom gave her young son consent to post a picture of her in her underwear
to a website! and probly many more things that people consent to.

And where is that in scripture by the way? All this 'consent' for
defining what's moral is humanism - it's certainly not scriptural (which
it should be since after all, we ARE in a Christian only section).
& Who decided that standard defines morality??

Consent does NOT make all acts moral or good or acceptable to God.

This "consent" notion is a fallacy where morality and Christianity are concerned -
it makes morality RELATIVE to each person when God gives absolute commands.

God has spoken - and I don't care what humanistic approach people want to
take, they WILL stand in front of God to be judged - and their lame
excuses of "consent" will not help them in that day.

 

[Nadiine]

Cultural progress. Perhaps we have mistranslated pieces of Scripture. Perhaps 'abomination' requires a more subtle glance.

I mean, think about it. How does homosexual love (the committed, monogamous type that heterosexuals hold as the 'ideal') actually hurt anyone? How is it sinful?

For every sin, there is a very strong reason why it is a sin. Murder is destructive. Lying is divisive and false. Adultery is divisive and a betrayal of trust. But homosexual love? How is love evil?

Perhaps abomination means ABOMINATION
and God has forbidden it!


*calling homosexuality "LOVE" is also a false notion when the laws
of Love given in the Torah do not include homosexuality;
in fact, that abomination carried a death penalty.

After all, Jesus Himself said that entire OT law hangs on the
2 love laws --
Let's read Romans 13 again!
Romans 13:8-10
8Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER,
YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment,
it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


It's showing you that the moral laws listed in the OT ARE WHAT
CONSTITUTED LOVE AND LACK OF LOVE

God defines what Love is - not us.
Homosexuality is a perversion of the genuine Love God designed for mankind at Creation (and Jesus tells you this directly):
Matthew 19:3-9
3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked,
"Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning
the Creator 'made them male and female,'
5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother
and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?
6So they are no longer two, but one.
Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

It's rebellion to God and His created order.

Lots more proof exists that ONLY male/female unions are lawful
before God; they are the ONLY unions the Bible describes and

examples - where are the man and man/woman with woman verses if this is so acceptable and normal?? They don't exist:

1. 1 Corinthians 7:2
   But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband.
   1 Corinthians 7:1-3 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 7 (Whole Chapter)
2. 1 Corinthians 11:3
   But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
3. 1 Corinthians 11:9
   for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake.
4. 1 Corinthians 7:10
   But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
5. Ephesians 5:23
   For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
   
6. 1 Timothy 3:2
   An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
   1 Timothy 3:1-3 (in Context) 1 Timothy 3 (Whole Chapter)
7. 1 Timothy 3:12
   Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.
   1 Timothy 3:11-13 (in Context) 1 Timothy 3 (Whole Chapter)
8. Titus 1:6
   namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.

(clearly, they could be accused of dissipation or rebellion IF they
violated the listed standard given - listed 3 separate times)

HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN
IT IS NOT CONDONED BY GOD ANYWHERE IN SCRIPTURE -
NOR IS IT EXAMPLED ANYWHERE AS A
MODEL.

 

[Simpalbe]

I agree with the fact that homosexuality is wrong, but I do not agree with Christians completely condemning them and not even giving them a chance. I have many friends who are so hateful towards the gay community. We are supposed to love EVERYONE, not hate them. I believe that homosexuality is a sin, but we, as followers of Jesus, need to try to HELP and LOVE these people. It is possible there are many Christian groups that help people come out of homosexuality.


The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Galatians 5:14

 

[Nadiine]

I agree with the fact that homosexuality is wrong, but I do not agree with Christians completely condemning them and not even giving them a chance. I have many friends who are so hateful towards the gay community. We are supposed to love EVERYONE, not hate them. I believe that homosexuality is a sin, but we, as followers of Jesus, need to try to HELP and LOVE these people. It is possible there are many Christian groups that help people come out of homosexuality.

I think you might be shocked to find that just becuz
Christians speak against homosexuality so harshly, that they
don't HATE the people - but what the people are doing and
forcing upon others in society over the years.

What I find alarming is the hatred & contempt towards celebrity
and people in entertainment. There's a total lack of compassion
there and that's more where I find "hatred" than against homosexuals.

I've seen in other chat venues & forums when sincere people reach
out with their homosexual issues for discussion, they are completely
embraced by Christians trying to help and offer love and kindness.

I've seen it everywhere. So what you hear from Christians to other
Christians against homosexuality does NOT mean they HATE gays.
Some might tho - and if that's the case then they have issues to
deal with.
But my observation over the years is that it isn't hatred,
it percieved hatred becuz of the disdain for the type of sin it is
and how harmful they find it to society.

If they hated them, then they would condemn all of them who
might reach out for help as well.

But I'll always leave the reminder that love is NOT void of
rebuke or chastening or warning either. In fact true love
will correct what's wrong/harmful

 

[KingCrimson250]

I agree with the fact that homosexuality is wrong, but I do not agree with Christians completely condemning them and not even giving them a chance. I have many friends who are so hateful towards the gay community. We are supposed to love EVERYONE, not hate them. I believe that homosexuality is a sin, but we, as followers of Jesus, need to try to HELP and LOVE these people. It is possible there are many Christian groups that help people come out of homosexuality.


The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Galatians 5:14

Bang, you know, that is exactly it. I don't see why with a lot of Christians things like drunkenness or dishonesty or whatever cause reactions like "Oh well, they don't know Christ, they don't know any better, and we should love them anyway!" but homosexuality pushes this big button marked "BIGOTRY" and everyone starts lashing out about how they are a menace to society and how they should not be tolerated and all that sort of thing.

 

[Nadiine]

Bang, you know, that is exactly it. I don't see why with a lot of Christians things like drunkenness or dishonesty or whatever cause reactions like "Oh well, they don't know Christ, they don't know any better, and we should love them anyway!" but homosexuality pushes this big button marked "BIGOTRY" and everyone starts lashing out about how they are a menace to society and how they should not be tolerated and all that sort of thing.

Some sins ARE more harmful than others, wouldn't you say?

Do you think it's as harmful or damaging to society to have
someone steal a pencil from the office - or kidnap a
6 year old and molest them?

If we don't see what the erosion of sin is doing on a broader
scale, we're truly blind.
This sin is ravaging the country in acceptance of many
sexual sins.

Also, lets not forget that homosexuality is purposely being
flaunted and forced upon us all like never before.
We'd be ignorant idiots not to react to the forcefulness
of this sin upon us all.
They are demanding acceptance and beating down anyone
who does'nt support it.

This IS a much different sin than others right now due to
their promotion of it specifically.
Nobody is forcing or promoting theft or gluttony on us, are they?

 

[Criada]

Nobody, as far as I know, is 'promoting' homosexuality... it isn't something you can persuade people to take up, like smoking or drinking, it is a condition which some are born with. Asking that people are accepted and given equal rights isn't the same as promoting! There have been campaigns for equal rights for the disabled... it doesn't mean that anyone is asking the able-bodied to disable themselves!

 

[KingCrimson250]

Well no one's forcing homosexuality on anyone either. People may look down on Christians who reject homosexuality, but then many of those Christians look down on people who accept homosexuality, so turnabout's fair play.

Gay marriage is legal in my country for some years and while I don't necessarily advocate it, it hasn't created the "slippery slope" that many Christians seem to talk about it. We haven't seen a sudden spike in pedophelia, nor has our society notably increased in other sins. If a gay couple goes to a church to get married, and the church says "I am sorry, but we feel that homosexuality is a sin and that we cannot endorse this marriage," that is okay. People are not up in arms demanding that churches be forced to marry gay couples. There might be the occasional lawsuit but it is usually dismissed because the church is fully within their rights. Maybe I'm just being short-sighted and within 20 years we'll have become a LGBT-ruled police state but I honestly do not see that in the cards.

I agree with you that there are different levels of sin, that some sins are more threatening to society than others. But that still doesn't really explain the sheer level of hatred leveled at the homosexual community. I would say that adultery is more widespread than homosexuality and is certainly more destructive than homosexuality, yet we don't see people raging against it the same way they might rage against LGBTs. There is just this bizarre, mysterious phobia surrounding it.

 

[Nadiine]

Well no one's forcing homosexuality on anyone either.

I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with that.

 

[Criada]

Someone has tried to force you to be homosexual??

 

[Nadiine]

Someone has tried to force you to be homosexual??

Why would anyone think that's what I mean by force?

Force comes by public attack and scorn for anyone saying
anything negative about homosexuality in public - they're now
treated like hatemongers when it's a biblical truth.
That's a form of intimidation against anyone who speaks out
that this is sin in the public / secular forum.

And lets not forget the hate crime legislation that protects
many forms of perversions including pedophilia by definition.
(threatening free speech as well)

Then you have entertainment pushing it to be accepted in
many different ways.

Then you have the whole gay marriage/union demand that's
recently been gaining ground where the family unit is
under threat of redefinition.

Yes it's being forced on many fronts and it's only a matter of
time before the world gets what they want as well.
(but then it's not surprising since it's prophecied to happen before
Jesus' return).

 

[Criada]

No one is forcing anyone to do anything except accept people as they are. And all are sinners... we need to present the gospel before we can expect repentance!
And why does paedophilia always get brought into every discussion about homosexuality? They are not connected, you know!

 

[Nadiine]

No one is forcing anyone to do anything except accept people as they are. And all are sinners... we need to present the gospel before we can expect repentance!
And why does paedophilia always get brought into every discussion about homosexuality? They are not connected, you know!

Yes they ARE forcing us to accept their sin on a grand scale.

If you don't see it, then it could be due to your personal view
about it, a bias, or you aren't looking very closely.

Pedophilia gets brought in: (as I'll explain it yet again becuz once
again the excuse that it's being used as a likeness of homosexuality
is proposed when it's NOT) (I do tire of having to explain
this and at times I wonder if it isn't done on purpose to try to
deflect from the real point made which I think is glaring).

becuz PEDOPHILES ALSO "SUFFER" FROM BEING ATTRACTED
SEXUALLY TO A GROUP THAT IS OFF LIMITS TO THEM.

Why are they ignored in the crusade for gays? Gays complain that
"God made them that way & they can't help their attraction for
the same sex". Fine - so how do you explain the poor
pedophile who suffers from a sexual need for underage kids that
he just can't help?
What about him/her? Did God make them that way? And just becuz
that's the only group they're attracted to or relate to, why should
they be demonized for it and restricted?

What about the teacher who 'falls in love' w/ their teenage student
and it's reciprocal?
What about the husband who's wife treats him like crap & let's
her appearance go while some hot, vibrant woman he gets close
to at work shows him interest instead and he craves that love & attn.?

The truth is, everybody has lusts & attractions that God calls us
to use restraint and self control with.
The same applies to any men & women who have sex outside
marriage which we know is normalized and prevalent today.

That's how it all relates - we all have attractions that tempt us,
it never means it's ok to indulge in just becuz we have it and
'can't help it'.

 

[Tissue]

Perhaps abomination means ABOMINATION
and God has forbidden it!


*calling homosexuality "LOVE" is also a false notion when the laws
of Love given in the Torah do not include homosexuality;
in fact, that abomination carried a death penalty.

There is no discernible difference between homosexual love and heterosexual love.

If the Bible says otherwise, then there must be a reason. The Bible does not appear to give a reason.

Thus, we find a conflict between what reason tells us and what a two-thousand year old book tells us.

This should tip us off to dig a little deeper, then.

 

[Criada]

Yes they ARE forcing us to accept their sin on a grand scale.

If you don't see it, then it could be due to your personal view
about it, a bias, or you aren't looking very closely.

I don't see how you can accept or refuse to accept someone else's sin... that is between them and God. We don't legislate against a great many sins... why is this one different?

Pedophilia gets brought in: (as I'll explain it yet again becuz once
again the excuse that it's being used as a likeness of homosexuality
is proposed when it's NOT) (I do tire of having to explain
this and at times I wonder if it isn't done on purpose to try to
deflect from the real point made which I think is glaring).

becuz PEDOPHILES ALSO "SUFFER" FROM BEING ATTRACTED
SEXUALLY TO A GROUP THAT IS OFF LIMITS TO THEM.

Why are they ignored in the crusade for gays? Gays complain that
"God made them that way & they can't help their attraction for
the same sex". Fine - so how do you explain the poor
pedophile who suffers from a sexual need for underage kids that
he just can't help?
What about him/her? Did God make them that way? And just becuz
that's the only group they're attracted to or relate to, why should
they be demonized for it and restricted?

What about the teacher who 'falls in love' w/ their teenage student
and it's reciprocal?
What about the husband who's wife treats him like crap & let's
her appearance go while some hot, vibrant woman he gets close
to at work shows him interest instead and he craves that love & attn.?

But, in the case of homosexual marriage we are talking about two adults who are committed to a continuing relationship to one another. I agree that paedophiles can't help their attraction, but it is nonetheless one which must be legislated against since it harms an innocent party. The same goes for the husband... he made vows to his wife, and breaking those is wrong. Homosexual marriage harms no one...

The truth is, everybody has lusts & attractions that God calls us
to use restraint and self control with.
The same applies to any men & women who have sex outside
marriage which we know is normalized and prevalent today.

That's how it all relates - we all have attractions that tempt us,
it never means it's ok to indulge in just becuz we have it and
'can't help it'.

But sex outside of marriage, whilst a sin, is legal and people indulging in it are not discriminated against in any way...