Gay marriage. Are you for or against it?

crazyfingers

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like i said before, no matter what, people will keep questioning my motives on why i choose to say no. whether any of you say im refusing to help or that its immorally incorrect to help people who are not harming anyone, im going to say no. at this moment in time, i say no. im more focused on some other things that i want to support and help with. and gay marriage isnt one of them right now

after talking on here and hearing other peoples views about it, i have come to understand why gay marriage should be a law in this country. in the beginning i didnt really get the grip of it, but now i do. i just dont support it right now. im not against it though

do you all get me now?

It would all have been cleared up much sooner had you answered this question on the last page instead of just this afternoon.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=30935745&postcount=282
 
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HaNotsri

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There is such a vocal opposition to this because the homosexual community chooses to make an issue out of it. If they want to continue to fight and try to legislate what marriage is, then there will be a vocal opposing force. Obviously that opposing force of the American people.

What I don't understand is why people (especially on this thread) need to equate "Against gay marriage? You must be hateful or hate gay people." People who are against gay marriage don't hate gay people. But they do see marriage as a worthy institution to protect in its current and traditional form and that is one man + one woman.

They are plenty of people that disagree with one's personal lifestyle "choices" (I put that in quotes because even that's a contentious issue). But the fact of the matter is this. Christians (including myself) disagree with the homosexual lifestyle. We disagree with it because it is not consistent with the Bible or God's teachings in the Bible. In fact, the Bible discusses homosexuality in the strongest of terms..."to'evah" or abomination. That doesn't mean we have a right to hate or demean other people because of their sexual practice.

You like to call us haters and bigots and blah, blah, blah. Well look at yourselves for a moment. You disagree with our religious convictions as much as we disagree with your lifestyle. I've heard some pretty "hateful" things come out of the mouths of atheists (which seem to be the majority speaking up for gay marriage in this thread), I should know, I live in Madison, WI the "Berkeley of the Midwest" and home to the Freedom From Religion Foundation. In fact, liberals tend to be so focused on "diversity" and "tolerance" and the like, they don't examine themselves and realize that they are just as hateful and bigoted to opposing ideas as they like to deem other people (like Christians).

I am not saying all atheists, homosexuals, or whoever are hateful towards Christians. That would be ignorant. However this fundamental issue of marriage is something that does divide us and it doesn't have to include hatred of anyone. There are plenty of people out there that can support something or not support something without spewing venom.

Just some words to think about

Peace
 
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JohnLocke

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HaNotsri,

I respect your opinion, honestly I do, it is an opinion shared by many people near and dear to my heart. But what I cannot understand is why marriage in its traditional form must be protected by the civil and criminal law?

It seems that arguments that are based on religious belief should be arguments made to religious leaders (for example the current controversy in the Episcopal Church and the recent case in the Lutheran or Methodist forgive me, I can't remember which).

I am reminded that there are Christians who think that divorce is morally wrong, and yet in every state there are more or less onerous ways of effecting a dissolution of marriage under the law.

What I do not understand, is how are John and Judy who are comfortably married in Tulsa, harmed by Steve and Samuel getting married in Boston?
 
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crazyfingers

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There is such a vocal opposition to this because the homosexual community chooses to make an issue out of it. If they want to continue to fight and try to legislate what marriage is, then there will be a vocal opposing force. Obviously that opposing force of the American people.

What I don't understand is why people (especially on this thread) need to equate "Against gay marriage? You must be hateful or hate gay people." People who are against gay marriage don't hate gay people. But they do see marriage as a worthy institution to protect in its current and traditional form and that is one man + one woman.

They are plenty of people that disagree with one's personal lifestyle "choices" (I put that in quotes because even that's a contentious issue). But the fact of the matter is this. Christians (including myself) disagree with the homosexual lifestyle. We disagree with it because it is not consistent with the Bible or God's teachings in the Bible. In fact, the Bible discusses homosexuality in the strongest of terms..."to'evah" or abomination. That doesn't mean we have a right to hate or demean other people because of their sexual practice.

You like to call us haters and bigots and blah, blah, blah. Well look at yourselves for a moment. You disagree with our religious convictions as much as we disagree with your lifestyle. I've heard some pretty "hateful" things come out of the mouths of atheists (which seem to be the majority speaking up for gay marriage in this thread), I should know, I live in Madison, WI the "Berkeley of the Midwest" and home to the Freedom From Religion Foundation. In fact, liberals tend to be so focused on "diversity" and "tolerance" and the like, they don't examine themselves and realize that they are just as hateful and bigoted to opposing ideas as they like to deem other people (like Christians).

I am not saying all atheists, homosexuals, or whoever are hateful towards Christians. That would be ignorant. However this fundamental issue of marriage is something that does divide us and it doesn't have to include hatred of anyone. There are plenty of people out there that can support something or not support something without spewing venom.

Just some words to think about

Peace

Why would anyone deny from some people something, that other people can have, that improves the lives of people and yet hurts no one to allow it?
 
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HaNotsri

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Why would anyone deny from some people something that improves their lives when it hurts no one to allow it?

It does and can hurt to allow it. America is such a fast-paced country. Our culture has been on a course of desensitization for the past 50 years. Some people call it "progressive," but I don't think that way.

Look at the way people connect to each other and communicate nowadays? Thirty years ago seeing the horror, violence, vulgarity, and lewdness that we now see on our daily television (or in a movie theatre), on radio, or in video games has contributed to the desensitization of America. We're not shocked by that stuff anymore. In fact, we look out for it. And when we see it, it doesn't effect us anymore.

Think about Nick Berg when he got his head sawed off in Iraq a few years back and every scrambled to the internet to see "the video." We were SHOCKED and the brutality and barbarity. Then there was Daniel Pearl, again we WERE SHOCKED. But nowadays, day after day, new videos are being released of that same sort of barbarity and it doesn't shock us anymore. The Saddam video didn't even shock us. It was a big deal because everyone wanted to see a brutal dictator die. But there was no shock value in it.

We've quickly let these things enter into our society and as they spread throughout America, people begin to feel indifferent about what they're seeing. They begin to see that something which they once held as invaluable (that is entertainment without the sex, violence, drugs, and vulgarity) is lost and deemed "timid." It happens even on our news broadcasts.

Furthermore we've moved into a time and place where thinking about ourselves and how we are feeling in the here and now is what's more important. That's why divorce rates are as high as they are. The most important person in this relationship is "me," not "us." This cheapening of marriage is a byproduct of all that I explained above because of the images the media sells us. And it becomes acceptable.

America of course has become desensitized to the concept of homosexuality as well. We have become so because we are bombarded with the lifestyle in popular culture that again, it doesn't surprise anymore.

If American allows gay marriage to become acceptable through legislation, it won't stop at the personal choices of a few people who want to get married. It will enter into our culture. We'll start seeing commercials that have the happy family with one man + one woman and a child being replaced by a family with two dads and a child or two moms. We'll start seeing movies and sitcoms (on a larger basis then we already do). We'll start hearing music. Our children will begin to see that as something that is acceptable and right and that's a normal happy family can look, despite all of the evidence against it. Whereas such a family is destructive at worst because the child doesn't receive a male and female figure in their life as is needed or at best, comparable to a child growing up with a step-parent (I heard this from a Chicago University graduate, left-leaning, professor of Sociology that I had in college).

Furthermore (and I know people hate this argument, but it is true), it opens up the door for other types of "marriages" such as polygamist or polyamorous marriages as being acceptable and God knows what else. It would mean there would be no limit to what constitutes marriages.

Laws are put into place to maintain order in a society. Every law no matter what it is, tramples upon someone's toes. Some laws that trampled to much like those that oppressed black people (and other minorities) or women from voting, eating in a restaurant, riding on a bus, getting a job have been repealed. Those were civil rights issues. (And don't compare the current gay "marriage" and gay "rights" struggle to the civil rights issues of the past. They're not the same thing. A black person can't become white. Despite what many would like you to think there isn't very much in the way of genetic or biological evience that being gay is biological.

Marriage is not a "right." It never has been, it never will be. The state doesn't have to grant a marriage to anyone if it chooses not to. As with any law there are certain stipulations that must be met in order for them to apply. Marriage is just the same.

In regards to insurance and what not that a lot of people talk about and tax breaks. There are stipulations and items that must be met in order to get those breaks or insurance benefits. If a large business sees a tax break that a small business is getting and he wants it...TOO BAD...he can't have it, because he doesn't fit the qualifications. The same goes for anything. If this is really about stuff like that...complain to the insurance companies! Complain to your place of employment! They have the ability to allow "domestic partner" benefits. Because really that's all this seems to be about.


Peace
 
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Wiccan_Child

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It does and can hurt to allow it. America is such a fast-paced country. Our culture has been on a course of desensitization for the past 50 years. Some people call it "progressive," but I don't think that way.

Look at the way people connect to each other and communicate nowadays? Thirty years ago seeing the horror, violence, vulgarity, and lewdness that we now see on our daily television (or in a movie theatre), on radio, or in video games has contributed to the desensitization of America. We're not shocked by that stuff anymore. In fact, we look out for it. And when we see it, it doesn't effect us anymore.

Think about Nick Berg when he got his head sawed off in Iraq a few years back and every scrambled to the internet to see "the video." We were SHOCKED and the brutality and barbarity. Then there was Daniel Pearl, again we WERE SHOCKED. But nowadays, day after day, new videos are being released of that same sort of barbarity and it doesn't shock us anymore. The Saddam video didn't even shock us. It was a big deal because everyone wanted to see a brutal dictator die. But there was no shock value in it.
The above three paragraphs are subjective garbage that make grandose appeals to mass desensitisation to violence (and therefore homosexuality?). While you may not have been shocked by the hanging and decapitation of Sadam and his brother, respectively, but I certainly was. It was greusome and bloodthirsty.

We've quickly let these things enter into our society and as they spread throughout America, people begin to feel indifferent about what they're seeing. They begin to see that something which they once held as invaluable (that is entertainment without the sex, violence, drugs, and vulgarity) is lost and deemed "timid." It happens even on our news broadcasts.

Furthermore we've moved into a time and place where thinking about ourselves and how we are feeling in the here and now is what's more important. That's why divorce rates are as high as they are. The most important person in this relationship is "me," not "us." This cheapening of marriage is a byproduct of all that I explained above because of the images the media sells us. And it becomes acceptable.
Nonsense. You apply your own preconceptions of what 'should' and 'shouldn't' be acceptable in modern society, and act like society is corrupted from within for daring to go against the almighty you!

What is it you said? "The most important person... is me". Well, you are a case in point.

America of course has become desensitized to the concept of homosexuality as well.
You have yet to demonstrate that homosexuality should not be desensitised. Do you remember interracial relationships being desensitised? Women of equal importance and power as men, being desensities? Would you rather us retract those transgressions on your utopian vision?

If American allows gay marriage to become acceptable through legislation, it won't stop at the personal choices of a few people who want to get married. It will enter into our culture. We'll start seeing commercials that have the happy family with one man + one woman and a child being replaced by a family with two dads and a child or two moms. We'll start seeing movies and sitcoms (on a larger basis then we already do). We'll start hearing music. Our children will begin to see that as something that is acceptable and right and that's a normal happy family can look,
Personally, I look forward to that. The sooner society realises that same-sex families are just as stable and loving as different-sex ones, then the stigma will end (e.g., the "but the kids will be bullied!" argument against gay adoption).

despite all of the evidence against it.
Ah, and here it is. The tenative link to reality that is wholly unsupported. What evidence?

Whereas such a family is destructive at worst because the child doesn't receive a male and female figure in their life as is needed or at best, comparable to a child growing up with a step-parent (I heard this from a Chicago University graduate, left-leaning, professor of Sociology that I had in college).
So what of single-parents? Should we enforce them to be rehomed to your utopian male-female units?
I also call for your evidence that a child is best raised by male-female familial units.

Furthermore (and I know people hate this argument, but it is true), it opens up the door for other types of "marriages" such as polygamist or polyamorous marriages as being acceptable and God knows what else. It would mean there would be no limit to what constitutes marriages.
First, what is wrong with polygamous marriages (bearing in mind that it must relate to homosexual arguments as well)?
Second, so long as there is love and informed consent, why are you fussing? It doesn't affect you, so [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth].

Laws are put into place to maintain order in a society.
Indeed. The current laws forbid, for the most part, the legal recognition of same-sex marriages. This is a direct barrier to a more stable society.

Every law no matter what it is, tramples upon someone's toes. Some laws that trampled to much like those that oppressed black people (and other minorities) or women from voting, eating in a restaurant, riding on a bus, getting a job have been repealed.
And getting married. A black person could not marry a white person during segregation, so there is a direct link between the current homosexual minority and the ethnic minority.

Those were civil rights issues. (And don't compare the current gay "marriage" and gay "rights" struggle to the civil rights issues of the past.
See above.

A black person can't become white.
Michael Jackson would beg to differ.

Despite what many would like you to think there isn't very much in the way of genetic or biological evience that being gay is biological.
Your point? So what if it's possible to change sexual orientations? It's such an integral part of someone, you might as well demand a change in accent, or handwriting, or hair colour.

Marriage is not a "right." It never has been, it never will be.
No, but the legal recognition of a marriage does confer extra rights to the parties in question. Hospital visitation rights, for example, or financial matters after the death of a partner.

The state doesn't have to grant a marriage to anyone if it chooses not to. As with any law there are certain stipulations that must be met in order for them to apply. Marriage is just the same.
There is no rational reason to limit marriage to just one man and one woman. Therefore, since the blind eye of the law must base it's conclusions on logic and rationality, marriage should not be restricted to one man and one woman.

In regards to insurance and what not that a lot of people talk about and tax breaks. There are stipulations and items that must be met in order to get those breaks or insurance benefits. If a large business sees a tax break that a small business is getting and he wants it...TOO BAD...he can't have it, because he doesn't fit the qualifications. The same goes for anything. If this is really about stuff like that...complain to the insurance companies! Complain to your place of employment! They have the ability to allow "domestic partner" benefits. Because really that's all this seems to be about.
Aside from those benefit automatically conferred over by legal marraige, and other, less financial ones, it is also the principle of the matter. Irrationality cannot be allowed to rule the courts of any nation, even the high and mighty USA!

Dave
 
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crazyfingers

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It does and can hurt to allow it.

* snip much nonsense *

Care to try to actually show how allowing two people who love each other to have the security of legal civil marriage would harm anyone?
 
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CriticalMassKitten

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So America is afraid of change? Ya know what, you're right. Americans only think about themselves, and that's the exact reason that people don't want gay marriage. Why? It doesn't effect them, they don't believe it's right, they don't want to explain to their children, ect. SO you're right, american's DO only think of themselves. Can you really say gays are being selfish because they want the same legal protection for them and their partners? Hell no! This is America people. It isn't about "be glad you don't have it worse", it's "be happy you're as equal as everybody else." And I hardly see how the media relates to this. Homosexuals make up 3% of the population, I HARDLY think they control the media.

Also, what's the problem with it being accepted? Is it a bad thing that gay people arn't being shunned, attacked, and verbally abused because of who they are? I hardly see the logic. If it isn't accepted, people will be hurt alot more than the people who just don't like it if it is accepted. You can sit there and not like it all you want, I can't change, and don't care about that. But trying to get others to change or hold back who they are because you don't like it is insane. It would be a whole other story if I said I didn't like a personality trait, so we should ban it.

It hardly hurts anybody, sorry to break it to you. And nothing in your post helped support your statement at all. It's like saying abolishing slavery hurt people.
 
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SimplyMe

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There is such a vocal opposition to this because the homosexual community chooses to make an issue out of it. If they want to continue to fight and try to legislate what marriage is, then there will be a vocal opposing force. Obviously that opposing force of the American people.

I suppose those seeking religious freedom shouldn't have come to America? After all, weren't they just "making an issue" out of their beliefs? To me, injustices should be fought.

What I don't understand is why people (especially on this thread) need to equate "Against gay marriage? You must be hateful or hate gay people." People who are against gay marriage don't hate gay people.

So, beyond your own religious beliefs, what reason is there for banning gay marriage? We don't typically base laws solely on religious beliefs, otherwise why are only a few of the 10 commandments legislated? Why do we not legislate what Christ called the Greatest Commandment but instead have religious freedom?

But they do see marriage as a worthy institution to protect in its current and traditional form and that is one man + one woman.

Perhaps we should have kept the "traditional" form of marriage where a woman's husband was chosen for her by her parents and she became her husband's property? After all, the divorce rates from that time are far lower than the divorce rates of today -- in fact divorce was practically unheard of. What makes "traditional marriage" so much more sacred than the many marriage traditions we have already changed?

In fact, why do we even allow most divorce today when Christ claimed that remarriage (other than for adultery) was adultery? Is not divorce already proven to be the single greatest threat to the family?

They are plenty of people that disagree with one's personal lifestyle "choices" (I put that in quotes because even that's a contentious issue). But the fact of the matter is this. Christians (including myself) disagree with the homosexual lifestyle. We disagree with it because it is not consistent with the Bible or God's teachings in the Bible.

You do realize there are many Christians who disagree with you on this issue (including myself)? But why is your disagreement with homosexuality a valid reason for your wanting to pass Constitutional amendments? Especially when you mention, further down, people who disagree with your "lifestyle choices" (your religion) and how unfair they are being? What makes your opinion so much more valid than theirs?

In fact, the Bible discusses homosexuality in the strongest of terms..."to'evah" or abomination. That doesn't mean we have a right to hate or demean other people because of their sexual practice.

Except, that "to'evah" does not properly translate to our current usage of "abomination". According to the Old Testament, various dietary laws were "to'evah", including eating shrimp. So, per the Old Testament, you commit abominations just by eating at Red Lobster or eating ham. The fact is that "to'evah" really means "desecration" or the commission of a sin that makes one ritually unclean.

You like to call us haters and bigots and blah, blah, blah. Well look at yourselves for a moment. You disagree with our religious convictions as much as we disagree with your lifestyle. I've heard some pretty "hateful" things come out of the mouths of atheists (which seem to be the majority speaking up for gay marriage in this thread), I should know, I live in Madison, WI the "Berkeley of the Midwest" and home to the Freedom From Religion Foundation. In fact, liberals tend to be so focused on "diversity" and "tolerance" and the like, they don't examine themselves and realize that they are just as hateful and bigoted to opposing ideas as they like to deem other people (like Christians).

Are you claiming that we should "paint" each side according to their extremists? Should I point to Westboro Baptist or the KKK and state that all of us Christians must be the same? I think I'd stay away from this logical fallacy, not unless you want to prove that all liberals or atheists actually believe those things. And, to use your argument, how many of those people you are claiming "hate" actually do? Could most of them not be like you are -- they don't hate Christians or religion but are simply fighting for their own beliefs and a better society?

I am not saying all atheists, homosexuals, or whoever are hateful towards Christians. That would be ignorant. However this fundamental issue of marriage is something that does divide us and it doesn't have to include hatred of anyone. There are plenty of people out there that can support something or not support something without spewing venom.

Just some words to think about

Peace

It's good that you are not trying to make those claims. What I do know is that if most Christians had been treated like the homosexuals I know, they'd be screaming persecution and hatred. It's not surprising, given the abuse many homosexuals have taken from "Christians" that they assume most do hate -- just as you assume above about the atheists that hate.
 
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YamiB

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Marriage is not a "right." It never has been, it never will be. The state doesn't have to grant a marriage to anyone if it chooses not to. As with any law there are certain stipulations that must be met in order for them to apply. Marriage is just the same.

I would like to adress the whole post, but HaNotsri already has so much to reply to that I'll only deal with this part.

States can be forced to marry couples if they set unjust boundaries on marriage. It is only religious instituations which cannot be forced to marry couples that they see as wrong. Do you think that it was fine for interracial marriage to be denied?

I think the Supreme Court ruling of Loving v. Virginia that I already brought up disagrees with your as assertion that marriage is not a right.

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discriminations. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia
 
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Spherical Time

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I am not saying all atheists, homosexuals, or whoever are hateful towards Christians. That would be ignorant. However this fundamental issue of marriage is something that does divide us and it doesn't have to include hatred of anyone. There are plenty of people out there that can support something or not support something without spewing venom.
I'm not hateful, per se, but a long time ago here a premillenial Christian told me that she believed that Christians would eventually be oppressed by our (American) government. I told her than even though I wasn't a Christian, I wouldn't support the oppression of anyone be they Christian or not.

But I've been on this site long enough so that my beliefs have changed. If we're ever lucky enough to reach that fictional end of times where Christians are discriminated against and oppressed, I'll treat Christians just like faithfulone1219 wants to treat gay people. I won't "hate" them, I just won't support their ways by allowing them to have any freedoms or respect by casting my vote against them.

Users like faithfulone1219 have convinced me that I should treat others no better than they treat me.
 
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Kaonashi

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For both secular and religious reasons, I am strongly for gay marriage. Not much is new under the sun it seems, because the same type of people that were against ending slavery and interracial marriage are now against gay marriage.
 
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Blackness

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I'm against it of course, all gays will BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY! Get over that you liberals! If the church still ran the world gays would be burned at the stake, like they should be! Good thing the apocalypse is coming soon, your all going to hell!
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rhyddid_rose

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Bore da. Sut mae?

Listen, I think gay people should be able to get married. They should have inheritance protection and be able to speak up for spouse in hospital situations and things of that sort.

I laugh when people say gay marriage will demean theirs; that's a crock of sugar! Does the marital status of others define your relationship to your spouse, or do you define it?

I'm not a lesbian; I love males too much for that. I would make a lousy lesbian. I believe if two people love each other, why not get hitched? What two consenting adults do in their bedrooms is none of me bloody business, I say.

If you're against gay marriage, dont marry someone of the same gender. Simple as that.

Hail the Aesir; Hail the Vanir,

Babochka
 
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