Free-Will

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Yes, man had a free-will choice in Adam. He blow that when he sinned. We all are under the condemnation & death of sin, because of One Man's trespass. As sinners though we sin willingly, because we are in bondage to it. Nobody forces or coerces sinners to sin. Their wills are now bound to sin. Because this is what they LOVE to do.

It is always nice to be able to blame someone else for your blight of not having free will and since Adam is not around he can take the blame?

The fact you were not made as “good” as Adam was made also allows you to blame God?

Is it “fair” on God’s part to make Adam so superior to you and yet hold you to his same standard?

If God has the power and Love to allow Adam and Eve to have free will, what is keeping God from allowing others to have free will?

Are we not still made in God’s image?

Everywhere is scripture I see man being held accountable for his own sins and not being found “guilty” for the sins of Adam, so what is your proof text?

Yes the fact Adam and Eve (our best all human representatives) sinned resulting in death having to come into the world, but is physical death bad in and of itself?

Does death not have a “good” purpose in helping willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective and allow them to go to their heavenly “rest”?

Do you believe all unborn babies are hell bound and if not why not?
 
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ladodgers6

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can we have a discussion without using the terms 'totally depraved' and 'unconditional election'?
That is very hard to do, since these are Biblical teachings.
 
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ladodgers6

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That's not really a question and the subject is encyclopedic—and off topic. Perhaps you should start a new thread with specific questions.

We have an inward and an outward nature, each of which is changing differently:

Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. (2 Corinthians 4:16, 1984 NIV)
Sure no problem I will start a new thread. I just ask because you mentioned it in your post, that's all.
 
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PanDeVida

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How many of you believe in free-will of the sinner, and why?

La, because God did not manufacture robots. God created us with a heart and a mind a body and soul, to choose Him or not.

When the Lord,said: "Come to Me...". Here is where the people utilize the Gift of Free will, to Come to Him or not.
 
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zippy2006

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Do we have the power of contrary choice?

If we didn't we couldn't be held responsible for our decisions.

Yes, man had a free-will choice in Adam. He blow that when he sinned. We all are under the condemnation & death of sin, because of One Man's trespass. As sinners though we sin willingly, because we are in bondage to it. Nobody forces or coerces sinners to sin. Their wills are now bound to sin. Because this is what they LOVE to do.

If we cannot not-sin then it would be unjust to punish us for sinning. Similarly, if your daughter cannot fly it would be unjust to punish her for failing to fly. Common sense ftw.
 
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ladodgers6

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0 Bible results for “totally depraved.”
0 Bible results for “unconditional election.”
I beg to differ. Total Depravity is a Biblical teaching.
 
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ladodgers6

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La, because God did not manufacture robots. God created us with a heart and a mind a body and soul, to choose Him or not.

When the Lord,said: "Come to Me...". Here is where the people utilize the Gift of Free will, to Come to Him or not.

The robot argument. We Calvinists do believe that sinners have a free-will. But the fallen condition of mankind is to seek sin, to do the pleasures of the flesh. Because they hate the light and love the darkness. The original state of man is lost when the first Adam sinned!
 
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ladodgers6

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If we didn't we couldn't be held responsible for our decisions.
We are already being condemned because of the ONE TRESPASS of the first Adam. (Romans 5)

If we cannot not-sin then it would be unjust to punish us for sinning. Similarly, if your daughter cannot fly it would be unjust to punish her for failing to fly. Common sense ftw.
Understanding the Fall is crucial to understanding our Redemption.
 
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ladodgers6 said in post 1:

How many of you believe in free-will of the sinner, and why?

It depends on what you mean by free will.

Do you mean the free will which simply means that God lets people choose what they are going to do (Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Isaiah 1:19-20; 1 Chronicles 28:9; 1 Peter 5:2, Philemon 1:14, Genesis 24:8)?

Or do you mean the Arminian free will whereby it is sinners (not God) who choose their initial salvation?

If the latter, we are probably agreed that only the elect can be initially saved, in that the elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people cannot understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect cannot ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers so that on their own they cannot repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

*******

ladodgers6 said in post 29:

The robot argument. We Calvinists do believe that sinners have a free-will.

What about saved people?

For while God makes it possible for saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), he does not take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom he forces to dance across the stage as he pulls on their strings. Instead, he leaves them as his real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).
 
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YCGP said in post 4:

Because salvation is not only from letting God into your heart. It is also from practising faith and doing good works (good deeds); therefore, one has free will to do as he pleases while on earth, and be judged for it on the second coming.

That's right.

And even from the viewpoint of divine election.

For all unsaved people, whether elect or nonelect, are like people who do not even know that they are blind in both eyes. They can neither see any need to believe nor see any need to repent. When God miraculously grants elect people the gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) and the gift of repentance (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18), it is like they can suddenly see in both eyes.

Repentance and faith initially do not involve the will or any works, just as if a blind man who did not even know that he was blind were miraculously given sight by Jesus, both his eyes would miraculously see without his will or his works having to be involved. But miraculously giving a blind man his sight also does not take away his free will. So he can subsequently wrongly employ his free will to blind himself, such as by staring at the sun for too long.

In the same way, once repentance and faith are miraculously received by an elect person, he still has the same free will that he had before he got saved. And so he can ultimately lose his salvation if he, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, wrongly employs his free will to return back to doing something like committing a sin without repentance (2 Peter 2:20-22, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).
 
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Greg J. said in post 6:

Predestination and free will are not contradictory.

Good point.

Just as even God's omniscience does not negate free will. (It is sometimes claimed that because we have free will, God cannot be omniscient.)

But God is definitely omniscient, for in him is found all knowledge (Colossians 2:2b-3; 1 John 3:20b). He is able to declare the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), and his foreknowledge is determinate (Acts 2:23, Revelation 1:1). But his omniscience coexists with his giving people free will. He still lets people choose for themselves what they are going to do (Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Isaiah 1:19-20, Philemon 1:14).

An analogy for how people can have a meaningful free will and yet God can already know what they are going to choose to do, would be a symphony conductor who wanted to make a film of a "Free Will Symphony" which sounded good enough to show off to the world. So he told his symphony musicians his plan, set up a movie camera in front of them, and said that each of them could start playing whatever he or she wanted for an hour. But when they all started playing, it sounded awful for the entire hour. It was utter cacophony. So the conductor sent them home and told them to come back the next day and try again. The next day sounded worse than the first. And the day after that was also bad. This went on day after day for months, until one day the most amazing sound arose from the symphony, a congeries of all the different melodies and rhythms which was unlike anything that anyone had ever heard before. So the conductor kept the movie of that day, and showed it off to the world.

But when the symphony musicians began watching the movie at its world premiere, with all the most-famous musicians of the world seated around them in the theater, some of the symphony musicians began to squirm in their seats. For example, one of the bass players had happened to choose that day (the day that the movie was made) just to stand there and not play anything. The movie showed him eating Twix, and just staring off into space for the whole hour. And one of the violin players had just happened to choose that day not to play anything either, but to file her nails and flip through a magazine.

After the movie was over, those two musicians, as well as some others who had been publicly mortified, filed a civil suit against the conductor for defamation of character. At the trial, they testified before the judge: "Before the movie was shown, we all had good reputations as fine musicians. Now we are the laughingstocks of the musical world. Our careers might never recover from this. The conductor knew before he showed the movie to the world that it would result in our ruin, and yet he showed it anyway. Clearly, his intent was malicious, and we seek damages".

But then the conductor testified: "Your honor, I honestly had no malice toward these musicians. The procedure of making the film was quite random. We made scores of different films, and in many of them, these musicians played brilliantly. But the sound of the symphony as a whole on those days was unbearable to listen to, so those films had to be rejected. It was just by chance that the one day that sounded wonderful, they happened to have made fools of themselves by their own free will. They themselves chose to act that way that day. I didn't make them do anything".

The judge agreed and dismissed the case. He told the musicians: "I'm sorry, but you don't really have a legal leg to stand on. For you knew that the conductor was making a film of that day, and that the plan was to show it off to the world if it sounded good. It is your own fault that you chose to act the way you did that day" (cf. James 1:13-15).

Similar to this analogy, before God created the world, he could have reviewed an infinite number of different threads (as it were) of all the possible free-willed sequences of events which could occur in the world, based on all the possible choices each individual could make during his or her lifetime. For example, in one thread, right after God created Adam, Adam could have chosen first to walk around the south side of the Garden of Eden, while in another thread, Adam chose first to walk around the north side, and in another he chose first just to sit on the grass and look at the trees, and so on through all the different possibilities for his first choice, and then through all the different possibilities for all of his subsequent choices, and then through all the possible choices made by everyone else from the beginning of the world to the end of it. After reviewing the infinite number of threads of all the possible sequences of free-willed choices, God could have chosen to create, to bring into actual existence, that one thread which would give him the best opportunity to eternally show both his mercy and his holy wrath (Romans 9:22-23).

Also similar to the movie analogy is the scientific idea of the "block universe", meaning that time, from the viewpoint of physics in itself (i.e. outside of how humans happen to experience time) there is no arrow of time: The past, present, and future of all space in the universe exist as one block of a four-dimensional space-time. So the past still exists, and the future already exists. This is similar to how all the frames of a film, all its moments of time, exist at the same time in one reel of film, and yet we humans happen to experience a film only one frame at a time, and in one direction. Also, with regard to the "block universe", quantum-level experiments have shown that the future determines the past as much as the past determines the future. So from the viewpoint of Christians, this means that they can pray for God's will to be done in the past, just as they can pray for it to be done in the future. For example, if they remember a close call in their past when they just barely escaped having a car accident, they can presently pray that God would keep them from having that accident, and this could help them to avoid it. That is, they could have avoided it because years later they prayed to avoid it.
 
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Good point.

Just as even God's omniscience does not negate free will. (It is sometimes claimed that because we have free will, God cannot be omniscient.)

But God is definitely omniscient, for in him is found all knowledge (Colossians 2:2b-3; 1 John 3:20b). He is able to declare the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), and his foreknowledge is determinate (Acts 2:23, Revelation 1:1). But his omniscience coexists with his giving people free will. He still lets people choose for themselves what they are going to do (Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Isaiah 1:19-20, Philemon 1:14).

An analogy for how people can have a meaningful free will and yet God can already know what they are going to choose to do, would be a symphony conductor who wanted to make a film of a "Free Will Symphony" which sounded good enough to show off to the world. So he told his symphony musicians his plan, set up a movie camera in front of them, and said that each of them could start playing whatever he or she wanted for an hour. But when they all started playing, it sounded awful for the entire hour. It was utter cacophony. So the conductor sent them home and told them to come back the next day and try again. The next day sounded worse than the first. And the day after that was also bad. This went on day after day for months, until one day the most amazing sound arose from the symphony, a congeries of all the different melodies and rhythms which was unlike anything that anyone had ever heard before. So the conductor kept the movie of that day, and showed it off to the world.

But when the symphony musicians began watching the movie at its world premiere, with all the most-famous musicians of the world seated around them in the theater, some of the symphony musicians began to squirm in their seats. For example, one of the bass players had happened to choose that day (the day that the movie was made) just to stand there and not play anything. The movie showed him eating Twix, and just staring off into space for the whole hour. And one of the violin players had just happened to choose that day not to play anything either, but to file her nails and flip through a magazine.

After the movie was over, those two musicians, as well as some others who had been publicly mortified, filed a civil suit against the conductor for defamation of character. At the trial, they testified before the judge: "Before the movie was shown, we all had good reputations as fine musicians. Now we are the laughingstocks of the musical world. Our careers might never recover from this. The conductor knew before he showed the movie to the world that it would result in our ruin, and yet he showed it anyway. Clearly, his intent was malicious, and we seek damages".

But then the conductor testified: "Your honor, I honestly had no malice toward these musicians. The procedure of making the film was quite random. We made scores of different films, and in many of them, these musicians played brilliantly. But the sound of the symphony as a whole on those days was unbearable to listen to, so those films had to be rejected. It was just by chance that the one day that sounded wonderful, they happened to have made fools of themselves by their own free will. They themselves chose to act that way that day. I didn't make them do anything".

The judge agreed and dismissed the case. He told the musicians: "I'm sorry, but you don't really have a legal leg to stand on. For you knew that the conductor was making a film of that day, and that the plan was to show it off to the world if it sounded good. It is your own fault that you chose to act the way you did that day" (cf. James 1:13-15).

Similar to this analogy, before God created the world, he could have reviewed an infinite number of different threads (as it were) of all the possible free-willed sequences of events which could occur in the world, based on all the possible choices each individual could make during his or her lifetime. For example, in one thread, right after God created Adam, Adam could have chosen first to walk around the south side of the Garden of Eden, while in another thread, Adam chose first to walk around the north side, and in another he chose first just to sit on the grass and look at the trees, and so on through all the different possibilities for his first choice, and then through all the different possibilities for all of his subsequent choices, and then through all the possible choices made by everyone else from the beginning of the world to the end of it. After reviewing the infinite number of threads of all the possible sequences of free-willed choices, God could have chosen to create, to bring into actual existence, that one thread which would give him the best opportunity to eternally show both his mercy and his holy wrath (Romans 9:22-23).

Also similar to the movie analogy is the scientific idea of the "block universe", meaning that time, from the viewpoint of physics in itself (i.e. outside of how humans happen to experience time) there is no arrow of time: The past, present, and future of all space in the universe exist as one block of a four-dimensional space-time. So the past still exists, and the future already exists. This is similar to how all the frames of a film, all its moments of time, exist at the same time in one reel of film, and yet we humans happen to experience a film only one frame at a time, and in one direction. Also, with regard to the "block universe", quantum-level experiments have shown that the future determines the past as much as the past determines the future. So from the viewpoint of Christians, this means that they can pray for God's will to be done in the past, just as they can pray for it to be done in the future. For example, if they remember a close call in their past when they just barely escaped having a car accident, they can presently pray that God would keep them from having that accident, and this could help them to avoid it. That is, they could have avoided it because years later they prayed to avoid it.

Quote
"It is your own fault that you chose to act the way you did that day" .

Calvinists say God is the cause of both good and evil.

Molinists have no explanation for why the persons acted the way they did in the situation. IOW, they can't prove it is free will which was behind the actions.
 
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It depends on what you mean by free will.

Do you mean the free will which simply means that God lets people choose what they are going to do (Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Isaiah 1:19-20; 1 Chronicles 28:9; 1 Peter 5:2, Philemon 1:14, Genesis 24:8)?

Or do you mean the Arminian free will whereby it is sinners (not God) who choose their initial salvation?

If the latter, we are probably agreed that only the elect can be initially saved, in that the elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people cannot understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect cannot ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers so that on their own they cannot repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

*******



What about saved people?

For while God makes it possible for saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), he does not take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom he forces to dance across the stage as he pulls on their strings. Instead, he leaves them as his real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).
I agree with you, but in one area I do not. Non-believers can understand the Gospel. Even a children can understand it. But believing and trusting in this announcement of good news is a whole other matter. But overall I am in your camp.
 
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How many of you believe in free-will of the sinner, and why?
Adam and Eve had free will.
They were told and tested - but were not 'controlled' to stay away from the forbidden fruit.
 
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ladodgers6

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Adam and Eve had free will.
They were told and tested - but were not 'controlled' to stay away from the forbidden fruit.

I agree. Thanks for your comments.
 
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How many of you believe in free-will of the sinner, and why?
If no free will then God is the one that is ultimately, solely responsible and culpable for all the evil in the world while man is passively innocent of all the evil that exists. The fact God gave man free will to use, then that makes man responsible for his own evil he does and not God. God made man upright, but man sought out many inventions Eccl 7:29. If there was no free will, then what point is there in God making man upright then God forcing men to do evil. Why not just make man evil to begin with?
 
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ladodgers6

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If no free will then God is the one that is ultimately, solely responsible and culpable for all the evil in the world while man is passively innocent of all the evil that exists. The fact God gave man free will to use, then that makes man responsible for his own evil he does and not God. God made man upright, but man sought out many inventions Eccl 7:29. If there was no free will, then what point is there in God making man upright then God forcing men to do evil. Why not just make man evil to begin with?
All great points. And I agree with you. Have you read Luther's book Bondage of the Will?
 
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Adam and Eve had free will.
They were told and tested - but were not 'controlled' to stay away from the forbidden fruit.

Yes, Adam & Eve had a free-will. But so do the fallen progeny of Adam; sinners. Nobody is forcing people to sin. They do it willingly. But they are also in bondage to sin. John 3 states, that sinners LOVE the darkness, and HATE the light. In Ephesians chapters 2-3 depict this sinful nature. These are some of the main points I believe. Nobody is being controlled or forced; they do it with LOVE; Willingly!

What's your stand on Covenant Theology?
 
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