Free Will?

[Hammster]

So free within constraints and boundaries of given nature is what you mean?

--

Let's lay out the facts for this scenario, again making the assumption that our characters have free will, but man's will is really irrelevant in this scenario

1. God is the Creator of Bob
2. God knows all things that are going to happen in Bob's life, including that he is eventually going to go to hell
3. God is the Creator of Joe
4.God knows all things that are going to happen in Joe's life, including that he is eventually going to go to heaven

Why did He create Bob?

Romans 9:19-24 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

 

[98cwitr]

Romans 9:19-24 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

This!

 

[Avid]

... Unless you're gonna tell me God didn't see it coming....

Not only did God see this coming, He had made the sacrifice of His own Son before it all started. It was not that the act of human society crucifying the Son of God had transpired, but that the sacrifice God had made was put forth before the foundation of the world.

What does that actually mean? That there is a "foundation" seems to imply a physycal structure, and many have seen that this means God did this before he laid the foundation of the Earth as a planet. Here is a list of other wayas the word is used. I'll concentrate on the uses where it is actually translated "world."

I. an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government


II. ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens.
1 Pet. 3:3


III. the world, the universe


IV. the circle of the earth, the earth


V. the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family


VI. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ


VII. world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

A. the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
​

VIII. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

A. the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews
(Rom. 11:12 etc)
​

If we take it to mean anything of the world other than a physical planet or universe (all contents of "outer space," we see that this could have taken place while Adam was in the Garden of Eden.

In any understandable sense, and provided a remedy before events required one.

 

[Avid]

... Why did He create Bob?

That it may be shown to all, not just people walking this Earth, but to the angels, and anyone else out there in the legal position of desrving to know, or deserving justice from God.

Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
​

 

[Bluelion]

You realize the "acceptance" that God is talking about is about a burnt offering and not salvation right? Let's keep a keen eye on the context, shall we?

"Faith with out works is dead is what i believe." Amen! We see what Cain did right after God told him that!

Your thoughts on Proverbs 16:9, 16:33, and 20:24 please. Then tell me about "picking paths."

It is not just about the offering but about Salvation. It is in context

 

[Bluelion]

So free within constraints and boundaries of given nature is what you mean?

--

Let's lay out the facts for this scenario, again making the assumption that our characters have free will, but man's will is really irrelevant in this scenario

1. God is the Creator of Bob
2. God knows all things that are going to happen in Bob's life, including that he is eventually going to go to hell
3. God is the Creator of Joe
4.God knows all things that are going to happen in Joe's life, including that he is eventually going to go to heaven

Why did He create Bob?

with out Bob Joe would not have had a choice. with out evil there is only Good and no choice.

 

[Hammster]

with out Bob Joe would not have had a choice. with out evil there is only Good and no choice.

So no free will in heaven?

 

[Skala]

with out Bob Joe would not have had a choice. with out evil there is only Good and no choice.

So no free will in heaven?

 

[98cwitr]

So no free will in heaven?

On a related note, Omniscience thread in Apologetics is up...could use some help: http://www.christianforums.com/t7877077/

 

[98cwitr]

with out Bob Joe would not have had a choice. with out evil there is only Good and no choice.

So Bob was created to give Joe a choice?

 

[Avid]

So Bob was created to give Joe a choice?

Bob was created so the choice Joe made (certainly not without the power & grace of God) and the richness of what God did for Joe would be known, and God would be praised. Also, God will be praised when His longsuffering toward Bob is shown for all to see.

 

[Bluelion]

So Bob was created to give Joe a choice?

bob was create to choose his fate just like joe. bob was allowed to be evil so joe could have a choice. other wise God would just end him there and then.

 

[98cwitr]

bob was create to choose his fate just like joe. bob was allowed to be evil so joe could have a choice. other wise God would just end him there and then.

choosing fate seems like a contradiction in terms. Can you elaborate please sir?

 

[twin1954]

So free within constraints and boundaries of given nature is what you mean?

--

Let's lay out the facts for this scenario, again making the assumption that our characters have free will, but man's will is really irrelevant in this scenario

1. God is the Creator of Bob
2. God knows all things that are going to happen in Bob's life, including that he is eventually going to go to hell
3. God is the Creator of Joe
4.God knows all things that are going to happen in Joe's life, including that he is eventually going to go to heaven

Why did He create Bob?

He created Bob in order to put on display the wonder that He has mercy on Joe. Bob and Joe are the same. They are vessels for God's use and purpose. Both Bob and Joe are deserving of the wrath of God and His destruction. Joe is the vessel that is least deserving to be put on display for he is flawed and cracked and ugly. Bob is, as far as all looking, the vessel more worthy of putting on display. Yet God, in sovereign mercy and wisdom, sets up Joe as an object of His love. All who look wonder why He lifts up Joe and leaves Bob in the place of dishonor. It is because by both He is seen to be Sovereign Lord and His mercy is seen to extend to the least deserving.

When a jeweler wants to display the beauty of a diamond he puts it on a black background. Why? Because the black background makes the beauty shine all the more brightly. Even a flawed diamond shines against the background when it has been polished by the hand of a master.

 

[98cwitr]

Im digging that analogy, twin

 

[Bluelion]

choosing fate seems like a contradiction in terms. Can you elaborate please sir?

He has a chance to chose Good, he picks who will rule him default is satan so making no choice at all is still making a choice. God know who will come but He still calls to those who will not to give them every chance. those who will notr come God still uses for other things, but they are allowed to be so other can come.

 

[now faith]

He created Bob in order to put on display the wonder that He has mercy on Joe. Bob and Joe are the same. They are vessels for God's use and purpose. Both Bob and Joe are deserving of the wrath of God and His destruction. Joe is the vessel that is least deserving to be put on display for he is flawed and cracked and ugly. Bob is, as far as all looking, the vessel more worthy of putting on display. Yet God, in sovereign mercy and wisdom, sets up Joe as an object of His love. All who look wonder why He lifts up Joe and leaves Bob in the place of dishonor. It is because by both He is seen to be Sovereign Lord and His mercy is seen to extend to the least deserving.

When a jeweler wants to display the beauty of a diamond he puts it on a black background. Why? Because the black background makes the beauty shine all the more brightly. Even a flawed diamond shines against the background when it has been polished by the hand of a master.

If understand what you are saying, God purposely creates evil to magnify good.

It seems to be a simpler conclusion to give man free will even though God may know the out come.

By this view we do not see God as unstable creating good and evil with the purpose of evil in his actions of cruelty.

 

[twin1954]

If understand what you are saying, God purposely creates evil to magnify good.

It seems to be a simpler conclusion to give man free will even though God may know the out come.

By this view we do not see God as unstable creating good and evil with the purpose of evil in his actions of cruelty.

That isn't what I said at all. God created both Joe and Bob. Both are bad because of the flawed material they are made of. He uses Bob to show the greatness of His mercy to Joe. God didn't create evil He purposed it.

 

[now faith]

That isn't what I said at all. God created both Joe and Bob. Both are bad because of the flawed material they are made of. He uses Bob to show the greatness of His mercy to Joe. God didn't create evil He purposed it.

We can agree God did not make either flawed.

Yet he allowed their ability to become flawed.

 

[now faith]

It is my opinion that both would be flawed without the other.

It is a perfection that God knows better than we do, but you cannot have the knowledge of good or evil with out the individual counterparts.