Free Will?

[Skala]

then what is 98 talking about?

Did he ever say Adam didn't freely and willingly choose to eat the fruit? No.

 

[Bluelion]

I understand the position, but I still think we have one act of free will to chose God or evil, what ever choice we make we are a slave after that.

I am going to end it at that before things get to heated. Enjoy
blu

 

[Hammster]

I understand the position, but I still think we have one act of free will to chose God or evil, what ever choice we make we are a slave after that.

I am going to end it at that before things get to heated. Enjoy
blu

But then we are left with, why would someone who hates God choose God?

 

[98cwitr]

But then we are left with, why would someone who hates God choose God?

Because they had a change of heart!

Ezekiel 36

 

[Skala]

I understand the position, but I still think we have one act of free will to chose God or evil, what ever choice we make we are a slave after that.

I am going to end it at that before things get to heated. Enjoy
blu

Why do you think that? is it because of something the Bible teaches? Or is it just something you think?

 

[Bluelion]

Why do you think that? is it because of something the Bible teaches? Or is it just something you think?

Wow you know if I went through all the cases for the Bible teaching we have a choice to make and are given it it would be a book by itself.

From Adam, and Cain. God said evil is at the door, if you do good you will be excepted. I see it a lot people ignore God's word because it conflicts with their ideas.

I realize this thread is to push Calvinist ideas, that's fine, but it should not be made out like it is open for discussion then, because doesn't matter what I show or say your mind is made up. so good luck with that. But I am not going to be a target, thanks.

 

[98cwitr]

if I do good I will be accepted? Aint that the motto of works salvation?

 

[Avid]

... From Adam, and Cain. God said evil is at the door, if you do good you will be excepted...

Here is something you can discuss, and not consider yourself a "target." Everyone can learn something, but it is important to not expect people to learn what is incorrect.

The point you are making applied specifically to Cain, and this was part of a discussion God had with him. I do not see that it is applicable to every person, but we should consider it more deeply. Look into the meaning of "If thou doest well," and what does it mean to anyone else.

Genesis 4
6 ¶ And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
​

Doing well included Cain NOT killing his brother, but it specifically meant obeying God and His command for sacrifice. It is this obedience by Abel that put him in a right position with God, and the disobedience of Cain that did the opposite for him. Some things from the Old Testament are applicable directly for people in this age, and almost all things pertaining to obedience are applicable to the unregenerate in this age.

The unregenerate of this age are in a similar situation as Cain was 5000 years ago, and they are required to be obedient. However, that obedience does not make them right in God's sight, and does not reconcile them to God. Only Jesus Christ was able to do that. The obedience of Abel meant he was not actively in opposition to God's commands. It is, and was, FAITH in God that put anyone (then or now,) in a right relationship with God. Abel still spent thousands of years in the Paradise side of the Heart of the Earth. He was reconciled with God the same way that a "Christian" has that done for him BY CHRIST in these days.

After Adam sinned, and fell, there was no way for a humans to enter the presence of God in Heaven. Jesus made a way for that, and that is what salvation from sin and self is about. We cannot extend "if thou doest not well," to include a work of God on behalf of fallen man. It is PART of it, but it could not "save" Cain. It could only return him from the position of being an active rebel before God.

 

[Skala]

Wow you know if I went through all the cases for the Bible teaching we have a choice to make and are given it it would be a book by itself.

From Adam, and Cain. God said evil is at the door, if you do good you will be excepted. I see it a lot people ignore God's word because it conflicts with their ideas.

None of what you typed here is contrary to, nor incompatible with Calvinist teachings.

Calvinism teaches that man has the ability to (and does) make free, willing choices. It even affirms that God appeals to men and asks them to make the right choice!

I'm not sure why you think otherwise, but please accept correction.

 

[Bluelion]

if I do good I will be accepted? Aint that the motto of works salvation?

Your issue is with God He is the one that said those words. Sorry you don't understand them.

 

[Bluelion]

Here is something you can discuss, and not consider yourself a "target." Everyone can learn something, but it is important to not expect people to learn what is incorrect.

The point you are making applied specifically to Cain, and this was part of a discussion God had with him. I do not see that it is applicable to every person, but we should consider it more deeply. Look into the meaning of "If thou doest well," and what does it mean to anyone else.

Genesis 4
6 ¶ And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
​

Doing well included Cain NOT killing his brother, but it specifically meant obeying God and His command for sacrifice. It is this obedience by Abel that put him in a right position with God, and the disobedience of Cain that did the opposite for him. Some things from the Old Testament are applicable directly for people in this age, and almost all things pertaining to obedience are applicable to the unregenerate in this age.

The unregenerate of this age are in a similar situation as Cain was 5000 years ago, and they are required to be obedient. However, that obedience does not make them right in God's sight, and does not reconcile them to God. Only Jesus Christ was able to do that. The obedience of Abel meant he was not actively in opposition to God's commands. It is, and was, FAITH in God that put anyone (then or now,) in a right relationship with God. Abel still spent thousands of years in the Paradise side of the Heart of the Earth. He was reconciled with God the same way that a "Christian" has that done for him BY CHRIST in these days.

After Adam sinned, and fell, there was no way for a humans to enter the presence of God in Heaven. Jesus made a way for that, and that is what salvation from sin and self is about. We cannot extend "if thou doest not well," to include a work of God on behalf of fallen man. It is PART of it, but it could not "save" Cain. It could only return him from the position of being an active rebel before God.

God was telling cain to have faith and reject evil. He was making him aware of his choice before him. It is true to all of us we can have faith in God or open the door to evil and give in to desire.

 

[Hammster]

Your issue is with God He is the one that said those words. Sorry you don't understand them.

Why the insult?

 

[98cwitr]

Your issue is with God He is the one that said those words. Sorry you don't understand them.

Chapter and verse in context please. I have no issue with God, other than I wish He'd talk to me more often, and a definitive supernatural event would be great to witness in my lifetime (even the sign of Jonah) I've seen a few things, but my flesh has a habit of chalking things up to coincidence, even when my heart says otherwise.

 

[Bluelion]

Chapter and verse in context please. I have no issue with God, other than I wish He'd talk to me more often, and a definitive supernatural event would be great to witness in my lifetime (even the sign of Jonah) I've seen a few things, but my flesh has a habit of chalking things up to coincidence, even when my heart says otherwise.

I believe Avid already quoted the verse. You said that was preaching works, well I did not say it God did. So not sure how you work that out? Faith with out works is dead is what i believe. and I also in above stated what God meant that cain had a choice, to pick Good or evil.

 

[twin1954]

Here is something you can discuss, and not consider yourself a "target." Everyone can learn something, but it is important to not expect people to learn what is incorrect.

The point you are making applied specifically to Cain, and this was part of a discussion God had with him. I do not see that it is applicable to every person, but we should consider it more deeply. Look into the meaning of "If thou doest well," and what does it mean to anyone else.

Genesis 4
6 ¶ And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
​

Doing well included Cain NOT killing his brother, but it specifically meant obeying God and His command for sacrifice. It is this obedience by Abel that put him in a right position with God, and the disobedience of Cain that did the opposite for him. Some things from the Old Testament are applicable directly for people in this age, and almost all things pertaining to obedience are applicable to the unregenerate in this age.

The unregenerate of this age are in a similar situation as Cain was 5000 years ago, and they are required to be obedient. However, that obedience does not make them right in God's sight, and does not reconcile them to God. Only Jesus Christ was able to do that. The obedience of Abel meant he was not actively in opposition to God's commands. It is, and was, FAITH in God that put anyone (then or now,) in a right relationship with God. Abel still spent thousands of years in the Paradise side of the Heart of the Earth. He was reconciled with God the same way that a "Christian" has that done for him BY CHRIST in these days.

After Adam sinned, and fell, there was no way for a humans to enter the presence of God in Heaven. Jesus made a way for that, and that is what salvation from sin and self is about. We cannot extend "if thou doest not well," to include a work of God on behalf of fallen man. It is PART of it, but it could not "save" Cain. It could only return him from the position of being an active rebel before God.

I don't think, by what you have written, that you apply these words the same way Blue does. I am sure, given the quote, that you understand that the context of God speaking to Cain here is that Cain was mad that God had respect to Abel's sacrifice but not to Cain's.

It is very clear that Adam taught his sons to bring a sacrifice. I have no doubt that Adam also taught them why they needed a sacrifice and how it represented that promised One who would crush the Serpents head. Eve apparently thought that Cain was the promised seed (Gen. 4:1).

Now when God spoke to Cain and said "If thou doest well shalt thou not be accepted" He was talking specifically about how Cain should have done as he was taught and brought blood as a sacrifice instead of the fruit of his labors.

Cain shows how quickly sin had permeated the soul of man after the Fall. Cain was mad at God for not accepting the fruit of his labor and he was mad at his brother because God accepted that which he brought, a picture of the sacrifice of Christ.

God's words to Cain in Gen. 4:7 have nothing to do with free will unless it is to show that man's free will is nothing but evil and sin.

 

[98cwitr]

I believe Avid already quoted the verse. You said that was preaching works, well I did not say it God did. So not sure how you work that out? Faith with out works is dead is what i believe. and I also in above stated what God meant that cain had a choice, to pick Good or evil.

You realize the "acceptance" that God is talking about is about a burnt offering and not salvation right? Let's keep a keen eye on the context, shall we?

"Faith with out works is dead is what i believe." Amen! We see what Cain did right after God told him that!

Your thoughts on Proverbs 16:9, 16:33, and 20:24 please. Then tell me about "picking paths."

 

[Avid]

... God's words to Cain in Gen. 4:7 have nothing to do with free will unless it is to show that man's free will is nothing but evil and sin.

Man has a free will, but he can only "will" himself to do that he is able to do. Man cannot will himself to take wing and fly from tree to tree as a bird. Man's nature does not include that as an ability, and so, man cannot accomplish that, regardless of how much he wills himself to do it.

Man's nature is fallen, and thus limited. It does not include much if anything spiritual, though by creation, he craves to worship things in his heart. Since he has not a nature that allows for him love God (who he hates,) God must perform by His grace, to give man something that allows him to do that.

As God calls, man responds in a variety of ways. If God is pleased to give man a measure of faith, and man exercises that, God gives more. This is why we see people start, stop and resume seeking the LORD. It is NOT (as some assume) the person getting saved, getting lost again or "backsliding" and getting saved again or being in "revival." It seems man will take any notion from God about his own self as God saving them.

Never rest in convictions till they end in conversion. This is that wherein most men miscarry; they rest in their convictions, and take them for conversion, as if sin seen were therefore forgiven, as if a sight of the want of grace were the truth of the work of grace.
Matthew Mead (1629−1699)
​

 

[98cwitr]

Man has a free will, but he can only "will" himself to do that he is able to do. Man cannot will himself to take wing and fly from tree to tree as a bird. Man's nature does not include that as an ability, and so, man cannot accomplish that, regardless of how much he wills himself to do it.

Man's nature is fallen, and thus limited. It does not include much if anything spiritual, though by creation, he craves to worship things in his heart. Since he has not a nature that allows for him love God (who he hates,) God must perform by His grace, to give man something that allows him to do that.

As God calls, man responds in a variety of ways. If God is pleased to give man a measure of faith, and man exercises that, God gives more. This is why we see people start, stop and resume seeking the LORD. It is NOT (as some assume) the person getting saved, getting lost again or "backsliding" and getting saved again or being in "revival." It seems man will take any notion from God about his own self as God saving them.

Never rest in convictions till they end in conversion. This is that wherein most men miscarry; they rest in their convictions, and take them for conversion, as if sin seen were therefore forgiven, as if a sight of the want of grace were the truth of the work of grace.
Matthew Mead (1629−1699)
​

So then why are we call that which isn't free, free?

 

[Avid]

So then why are we call that which isn't free, free?

Man is free to do what he is able to do. It is wrong to say man is free to fly from tree to tree like a bird! It is not in his nature. Man is generally able to resist God.

 

[98cwitr]

So free within constraints and boundaries of given nature is what you mean?

--

Let's lay out the facts for this scenario, again making the assumption that our characters have free will, but man's will is really irrelevant in this scenario

1. God is the Creator of Bob
2. God knows all things that are going to happen in Bob's life, including that he is eventually going to go to hell
3. God is the Creator of Joe
4.God knows all things that are going to happen in Joe's life, including that he is eventually going to go to heaven

Why did He create Bob?