Free Will?

[Skala]

The Bible teaches that each person is a sinner since they are born after Adam, born into a fallen human race.

If free will is true, why is each person a sinner? I mean, what about free will? If free will is true, why can't each person simply will themselves to never sin in their entire lives?

Why is it 100% guaranteed that each person will, without a doubt, commit sin during their lives? Doesn't that kind of refute the notion of (libertarian) free will?

Maybe, then, free will is better defined as "the ability to do what you want to do", just like the Calvinists have been saying all along? (and what unregenerate people want to do is sin)

 

[Hammster]

 

[Skala]

That is an interesting quote, thank you Hammster.

 

[Bluelion]

I guess Adam had no free will either when he sinned.

 

[98cwitr]

I guess Adam had no free will either when he sinned.

Yay, another free will thread. Let's beat this dead horse again, shall we

Tree was put there for a reason.

Tree + Adam + Eve + Satan = Fall of Man. All flawed but the Tree. Unless you're gonna tell me God didn't see it coming....

 

[Bluelion]

Yay, another free will thread. Let's beat this dead horse again, shall we

Tree was put there for a reason.

Tree + Adam + Eve + Satan = Fall of Man. All flawed but the Tree. Unless you're gonna tell me God didn't see it coming....

two trees do you forget? The Tree of Life and the Tree of knowledge of Good and evil. Adam could have just as easy ate from life. There is the choice and its for us all.

If we do not have free will why is it written God calls to the sinners to repent? Why call if they can not make a choice for themselves?

 

[98cwitr]

two trees do you forget? The Tree of Life and the Tree of knowledge of Good and evil. Adam could have just as easy ate from life. There is the choice and its for us all.

If we do not have free will why is it written God calls to the sinners to repent? Why call if they can not make a choice for themselves?

God knew which one they would choose before they were created, and put it there anyway. There goes the notion of "choice," rather it's simply an illusion; a perception from the human viewpoint.

God calls sinners to repent so the elect will repent. Faith comes by hearing.

 

[Skala]

two trees do you forget? The Tree of Life and the Tree of knowledge of Good and evil. Adam could have just as easy ate from life. There is the choice and its for us all.

If we do not have free will why is it written God calls to the sinners to repent? Why call if they can not make a choice for themselves?

Nobody - especially those from the Reformed camp - has EVER argued that choice is never a factor.

If you think Calvinism is all about men not having "a choice", then you don't understand Calvinism.

 

[Bluelion]

God knew which one they would choose before they were created, and put it there anyway. There goes the notion of "choice," rather it's simply an illusion; a perception from the human viewpoint.

God calls sinners to repent so the elect will repent. Faith comes by hearing.

So you claim God is the deceiver? Do you think God plays games to amuse Him self? I don't know what God you worship but that is not my God.


I had a choice and i chose God, God took it from there. The one thing I had to give was my self, and that is what He asked for.

There is free will and a choice. Just like the two trees we can chose God and life or death and evil. The fact God knows everything that will happen does not take away a persons choice or free will. Show me in the Bible where it says a person has no choice? Your claim is not scriptural.

 

[Bluelion]

Nobody - especially those from the Reformed camp - has EVER argued that choice is never a factor.

If you think Calvinism is all about men not having "a choice", then you don't understand Calvinism.

then what is 98 talking about?

 

[Hammster]

then what is 98 talking about?

Maybe you should have asked him before accusing him of worshipping a false god.

 

[Bluelion]

Maybe you should have asked him before accusing him of worshipping a false god.

I did not accuse him of anything, show me those words you claim I said?

 

[Hammster]

I did not accuse him of anything, show me those words you claim I said?

So don't know what God you worship but that is not my God.

Saying he worships a different god is accusing him of worshipping a false god. Unless you're polytheistic, which you aren't.

 

[Bluelion]

Saying he worships a different god is accusing him of worshipping a false god. Unless you're polytheistic, which you aren't.

I never said He worshiped a different God or those words you claim i said now did I.

 

[Hammster]

I never said He worshiped a different God or those words you claim i said now did I.

You said that you don't worship the God he worships. Not sure what other conclusion to draw from that. Perhaps you could clarify.

 

[JustOneWay]

Maybe you should have asked him before accusing him of worshipping a false god.

That's not true.

 

[Hammster]

That's not true.

I've shown it to be true. Maybe it's not what he meant. But it was definitely the implication.

 

[JustOneWay]

I've shown it to be true. Maybe it's not what he meant. But it was definitely the implication.

There are at least two options.

You chose one.

This is an interesting topic. Even if choice is an illusion that does not mean free will is also an illusion. One can have the freedom to do a thing, and it is free even if that choice is known to others. I don't have the answer but I find the thought intriguing....

 

[98cwitr]

It's okay Blue. I never claimed to be Calvinist, so I can't really say what they do and do not attest to. I am simply going on a few facts to come to my conclusions. And no, Im not claiming God deceived anyone. I am claiming that because

A) God is the Creator of ALL things
B) God is Omniscient

There can really be no free will. Now, that said, man does have a will, but it is limited, finite, and controlled by a man's God-given nature and external influences that are also controlled by God. You see this directly in Proverbs 16:9; 16:33, and 20:24. We see the notion of free will trampled on time and time again where God changes people's hearts, and even the promise of rebirth in Ezekiel 36, where we will receive a new heart and His law will be written on it.

You and I make "decisions" based on two things: 1. Internal drive 2. External influences

That drive is directly affected by external influences, both of which God is able to manipulate to His Will (Romans 9:18+).

Im having this same convo with another member in Apologetics, but I'll have it here too:

Let's lay out the facts for this scenario, again making the assumption that our characters have free will, but man's will is really irrelevant in this scenario

1. God is the Creator of Bob
2. God knows all things that are going to happen in Bob's life, including that he is eventually going to go to hell
3. God is the Creator of Joe
4.God knows all things that are going to happen in Joe's life, including that he is eventually going to go to heaven

If God wants ALL PEOPLE (meaning everyone that has ever lived or that will ever live) to be saved and come to repentance, why did He create Bob?

 

[twin1954]

I guess Adam had no free will either when he sinned.

Yes Adam had not only a free will but one that was upright and good as he was made in the image of God. The problem is that he lost that will when he chose to disobey God. Paul tells us in 1Tim. 1:14 that Adam was not deceived so when he sinned he knew what he was doing.

The rest of Genesis 3 shows the result of that choice. He his from the God whom he had previously communed intimately. He tried to cover his sin and then blamed both Eve and God for his willful disobedience.

His sin brought immediate death as promised by God but he lived hundreds of years, probably, after the Fall and bore children. His children were born sinners just like him for they inherited his nature. That is why you find them bringing a sacrifice in chapter 4.

Ever since the Fall mankind has not had a "free will". While he does have a will and exercises it daily it isn't free from the influence of the nature. A man sins because his nature is to sin just like a dog barks because it is his nature to bark. It can do nothing else.

But that doesn't mean that man does not choose. I chose to believe in Christ but only after He, by the Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel, gave me life and faith. He brought me from death unto life and caused me to born of God and then I chose that which I must have.