Formal Debate Peanut Gallery - Mary is the Queen Mother of the Church whom we can as

[BobRyan]

This is the argument for Ever-Virgin; that Christ only passed through Mary, like water through a straw. John/scripture, of course, teach a normal human birth complete with afterbirth.

.

Again you refer to the embryo implant that is done every day with surrogate mothers as if you never heard of it or don't understand it.

The embryo implants just as it would if it were genetically from the birth mother.

It is interesting that you are making something up that does not apply to the biology of the option I am describing - that is not supported in science -- why do that, since this is a well known, well observed, process?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rick Otto]

You need to go back to BobRyan's post I was responding to. He claimed Jesus took no DNA, which seems to me that he is claiming Christ took no physical flesh from Mary. He said Mary was a "host" which implies Christ-as-God merely "inhabited" Mary. I'm sorry, but taken to it's conclusion, how can Christ be fully human, with the flesh of a man, capable of dying physically?

If BobRyan's belief is true, and a small God-Jesus was simply beamed complete into the womb of Mary to enter earth - why? Why not simply beam God-Jesus to earth fully grown? If He took no flesh from Mary, why be born at all?

Forgive me if I'm missing something here, but a simple "host" does imply something like a "parasite" ... Your words in this case and not mine. It was BobRyan's idea that Mary was only a "surrogate host" and that I must object to on the grounds stated.

ETA: Because God is involved directly, I don't believe a sexual mingling is required. God can do what we cannot understand. But I believe that Mary is the PHYSICAL mother of Jesus in a biological sense, and I believe this is a necessary understanding in order for Jesus to be actual, physical human man.

Bottom line, I agree with you.
"Seed of the woman" strikes me as having prophetic fulfillment in the virgin birth, and Jesus spoke like He was interested in fulfilling prophecy.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Martin Luther accepted that Mary is the Queen of Heaven, Mother of the Church. Some Lutherans agree, some don't.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Martin Luther accepted that Mary is the Queen of Heaven, Mother of the Church. Some Lutherans agree, some don't.

That is surprising. Do you have a source?
I know he had no great love for Roman Catholicism........

http://www.glaird.com/luth-heb.htm

Luther's involvement with the Hebrew language was to continue throughout his career, especially in his translations of the Bible. Luther constantly strove to find the original meaning - he was always seeking the source of the biblical materials. That meant that he needed to find the most original, the most reliable Hebrew source for his Old Testament. This quotation from his "Table Talk" is revealing about his passion:

"If I were younger I would want to learn this language [i.e. Hebrew], for without it one can never properly understand the Holy Scripture…. For that reason they have said correctly: 'The Jews drink out of the original spring, The Greeks drink out of the stream flowing out of the stream, The Latins, however, out of the puddle'."
​

.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The Lutheran Confessions refer to Mary as "holy, ever-virgin, who prays for the Church".

Luther believed in the Immaculate Conception and Assumption, prayed the Hail Mary.

Mother Mary, like us, was born in sin of sinful parents, but the Holy Spirit covered her, sanctified and purified her so that this child was born of flesh and blood, but not with sinful flesh and blood. The Holy Spirit permitted the Virgin Mary to remain a true, natural human being of flesh and blood, just as we. However, he warded off sin from her flesh and blood so that she became the mother of a pure child, not poisoned by sin as we are. For in that moment when she conceived, she was a holy mother filled with the Holy Spirit and her fruit is a holy pure fruit, at once God and truly man, in one person."[20]
Luther's Marian theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I agree with Luther on Our Lady and have prayed the Angelus on retreats but generally not in my private prayers.

 

[GoingByzantine]

That is surprising. Do you have a source?
I know he had no great love for Roman Catholicism........
[/INDENT]

.

He was a priest. Did he have no love for Roman Catholicism, or did he think it was straying from the truth?

 

[Rick Otto]

It has been my understanding that he was quite fond of the church.

I no longer pray the hail Mary, but I firmly believe in the efficacy of the hail Mary pass on a fourth down.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

It has been my understanding that he was quite fond of the church.

I no longer pray the hail Mary, but I firmly believe in the efficacy of the hail Mary pass on a fourth down.

Indeed he was.

Luther did recognize that praying the Hail Mary could indeed lead one who was weak of faith to misdirect their faith. As I recall, Luther suggested that on a strong Christian should pray the Hail Mary.

The Gospel reading last Sunday was the Annunciation; the theme clearly printed on the front of our bulletin was "Hail Mary".

We also sang this hymn from Lutheran Service Book, which is a reflection on the Incarnation and which is also a hymn to the Blessed Virgin:

The Angel Gabriel from Heaven Came
By: Basque carol, para. Sabine Baring-Gould, 1834-1924

The angel Gabriel from heaven came,
With wings as drifted snow, with eyes as flame:
"All hail to thee, O lowly maiden Mary,
Most highly favored lady." Gloria!


"For know a blessed mother thou shalt be,
All generations laud and honor thee;
Thy son shall be Emmanuel, by seers foretold,
Most highly favored lady." Gloria!


Then gentle Mary meekly bowed her head;
"To me be as it pleaseth God," she said.
"My soul shall laud and magnify God’s holy name."
Most highly favored lady." Gloria!


Of her, Emmanuel, the Christ, was born
In Bethlehem all on a Christmas morn,
And Christian folk through-out the world will ever say:
"Most highly favored lady." Gloria!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbuz7jQEfzQ


We also sang this hymn which was written by a Lutheran:

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]For All the Faithful Women[/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]Herman Stuempfle, Jr.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]For all the faithful women who served in days of old[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]To you shall thanks be given, to all their story told. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]They served with strength and gladness in tasks your wisdom gave. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]To you their lives bore witness, proclaimed your power to save."[/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]
[/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]We honor faithful Mary, fair maiden, full of grace.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]She bore the Christ, our brother, who saved our human race.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]May we, with her, surrender ourselves to your command[/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]And lay upon your altar our gifts of heart and hand.[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif][/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]
[/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]All praise to God the Father! All praise to Christ the Son![/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]All praise the Holy Spirit, who binds the Church in one![/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]With saints who went before us, with saints who witness still,[/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif][/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]We sing glad alleluias and strive to do Your will.[/FONT]​

​

​

 

[Rick Otto]

I must confess I lack the strength to pray the Hail Mary,
...but do hope she's enjoying her son's birthday as much as every one down here seems to.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I must confess I lack the strength to pray the Hail Mary,
...but do hope she's enjoying her son's birthday as much as every one down here seems to.

Good thoughts Rick!

Have a blessed New Year as well!

 

[~Anastasia~]

I must confess I lack the strength to pray the Hail Mary,
...but do hope she's enjoying her son's birthday as much as every one down here seems to.

 

[Athanasias]

Indeed he was.

Luther did recognize that praying the Hail Mary could indeed lead one who was weak of faith to misdirect their faith. As I recall, Luther suggested that on a strong Christian should pray the Hail Mary.

The Gospel reading last Sunday was the Annunciation; the theme clearly printed on the front of our bulletin was "Hail Mary".

We also sang this hymn from Lutheran Service Book, which is a reflection on the Incarnation and which is also a hymn to the Blessed Virgin:

The Angel Gabriel from Heaven Came
By: Basque carol, para. Sabine Baring-Gould, 1834-1924

The angel Gabriel from heaven came,
With wings as drifted snow, with eyes as flame:
"All hail to thee, O lowly maiden Mary,
Most highly favored lady." Gloria!


"For know a blessed mother thou shalt be,
All generations laud and honor thee;
Thy son shall be Emmanuel, by seers foretold,
Most highly favored lady." Gloria!


Then gentle Mary meekly bowed her head;
"To me be as it pleaseth God," she said.
"My soul shall laud and magnify God’s holy name."
Most highly favored lady." Gloria!


Of her, Emmanuel, the Christ, was born
In Bethlehem all on a Christmas morn,
And Christian folk through-out the world will ever say:
"Most highly favored lady." Gloria!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbuz7jQEfzQ


We also sang this hymn which was written by a Lutheran:

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]For All the Faithful Women[/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]Herman Stuempfle, Jr.[/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]For all the faithful women who served in days of old[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]To you shall thanks be given, to all their story told. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]They served with strength and gladness in tasks your wisdom gave. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]To you their lives bore witness, proclaimed your power to save."[/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]
[/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]We honor faithful Mary, fair maiden, full of grace.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]She bore the Christ, our brother, who saved our human race.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]May we, with her, surrender ourselves to your command[/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]And lay upon your altar our gifts of heart and hand.[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif][/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]
[/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]All praise to God the Father! All praise to Christ the Son![/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]All praise the Holy Spirit, who binds the Church in one![/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]With saints who went before us, with saints who witness still,[/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif][/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, sans-serif]We sing glad alleluias and strive to do Your will.[/FONT]​

​

​

That is one of my favorite Marian Hymns we sing at Mass during advent/Christmas season! Excellent post Mark!

 

[Rick Otto]

I must also confess that I don't and would never, desire such strength.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I must also confess that I don't and would never, desire such strength.

Well, I was mostly giving you the thumbs-up regarding people enjoying the celebration of the birth of Christ.

But the truth is, while my faith in Christ is quite strong, I have a great care in Marian doctrines and devotions. Perhaps it is my weak faith - or Protestant baggage.

I can't really comment specifically on the Hail Mary. I only know "Hail Mary, full of grace, pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death" - and that doesn't amount to "worship" as it is nothing more than the greeting the Archangel used to her, coupled with a request for intercession. (I don't know if there is more to it than that or not.)

And I understand "most holy Theotokos, save us" to be a shortening of the hymn "by the prayers of the Theotokos, Saviour save us" (asking Christ to hear her intercession for us). I don't consider this a necessary aspect of salvation - such that I would NEVER say that a person cannot be saved without Mary's intercession. But I have a concern that one who hears only "the short form" can very much misunderstand and think perhaps that we believe it is Mary that saves us. And the longer form one could misunderstand into thinking her intercession is necessary for salvation.

I don't mind asking. Indeed - I have always coveted the prayers of those I see as holy, so why not covet the prayers of the Theotokos above any others? (I am of the mind that the departed saints are alive in Christ.)

But I am very careful to consider what I pray. There are some published prayers that I may not understand the intent of the words, but with my basic understanding I am uncomfortable with them and I do not use them.

Probably a lot more than your reply called for. Sorry, but I guess I'd like to clarify on both sides of the issue and not appear to endorse one extreme or another that I do not.

And perhaps my faith is too weak as well. I don't mean that as sarcasm. Simply I may not yet understand to a degree where certain prayers are advisable.

 

[Standing Up]

Don't some view Mary as a type of "gate keeper" in the same way some view Peter as having the keys to the pearly gates? Can't get in, otherwise, some believe.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Don't some view Mary as a type of "gate keeper" in the same way some view Peter as having the keys to the pearly gates? Can't get in, otherwise, some believe.

If that was addressed to me - as I did kind of touch on that being a possible misunderstanding of one of the hymns - then I will just say, not that I've ever heard of.

 

[Athanasias]

Here is just my two cents on this:

I think you may be thinking of St. Jerome the early scripture scholar of the 4th century who when defending the Blessed Virgins Mary's perpetual Virginity saw Mary as a type of the gate spoken about in ( Ez 44:1-2) as fulfilled in the new covenant.


Or perhaps your thinking of Archbishop Fulton Sheen(a popular orthodox Catholic Bishop and evangelist in the 1960's who had his own show) who once in a joking manner said something like "Jesus went to Peter(the keeper of the keys) and ask why all these extra people were hear in heaven. Peter replied Lord every time I close a door your Mother opens a window".

In general piety many of us hold to this not in the strict sense but in the sense of her Queenly and heavenly and Motherly intercession. I know this priest who did die and was judged for hell absolutely holds to this concept as he changed his entire priesthood and life when the Lord allowed him to come back as a result of evidence of it. Check it out its only 4 minutes but powerful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqiqO5BzH74


Here is a whole story in 45 minute version on Mother Angelica live Catholic Tv.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VFE8ToVatI

 

[Alfred Persson]

I already have a mother:

but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. (Gal 4:26 NKJ)

Two mothers is one too many.

 

[A greater Hope]

This is all confusing and strange and I see no biblical reference where the apostles of Christ or those that believe in Christ praying to dead saints or Mary for intercession what is this folly I've reed?I through the scriptures find that there is only one mediator even intercessor before God that's the man Christ Jesus and there is no other,John 14-6
Even Mary when she was yet alive being present in the upper room on the day of Pentecost prayed to God the father even Jesus and so should we follow in that communion with God.As Paul asked certain believers of the gentile church "who died for you" no dead saint did for me that includes Mary but Christ did. I know this will offend because the truth does at times but brethren let us continue in fellowship with God our Creator Savior and Redeemer and never esteem a man or woman or creature in his place for
His name is Jealous.