Focused discussion, Lev. 18:22

tall73

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In the thread discussing the Supreme court ruling regarding gay marriage a list was posted of verses that are used by some to condemn sexual activity between people of the same gender.

This thread is looking at the first of those texts so that the passage can be reviewed in some detail.

Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

This is not about the US decision, about homosexuality in general, etc. This is a focused discussion on the text, its context, and meaning.
 
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tall73

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Some initial thoughts:

a. This verse on its face appears to prohibit a man lying down sexually with a man as he would with a woman.

b. This verse is part of the Mosaic law code.

c. The context shows that this principle goes beyond simply the Israelites as it points out that the inhabitants who were in the land before Israel were judged because of the sins in this section. In other words, it was not just a sin for the Israelites.
 
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mkgal1

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I'm willing to discuss this passage with you, Tall, as historically you've shown yourself to be respectful and focused.

This is what school of thought I belong to:

“Abomination” (TO’EBAH) is a technical cultic term for what is ritually unclean, such as mixed cloth, pork, and intercourse with menstruating women. It’s not about a moral or ethical issue. This Holiness Code (chapters 17-26) proscribes men “lying the lyings of women.” Such mixing of sex roles was thought to be polluting. But both Jesus and Paul rejected all such ritual distinctions (cf. Mark 7:17-23; Romans 14:14,20). The Fundamentalist Journal admits that this Code condemns “idolatrous practices” and “ceremonial uncleaness” and concludes: “We are not bound by these commands today.”~http://ecinc.org/clobber-passages/leviticus-1822-2013/

the chapter following (still part of the Holiness Code) has this passage (as a continuation)

“You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material.~Leviticus 19:19
 
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mkgal1

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Lev. 18:3: “You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you lived, and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, to which I am bringing you” (NRSV). Lev. 20:23: “You shall not follow the practices of the nation that I am driving out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them” (NRSV). Thus, the first thing we should notice is that the laws of Leviticus 18 and 20 are about avoiding the practices of other nations—nations which worshiped other gods.

From: https://scribalishess.wordpress.com/2014/02/28/leviticus-defiled-the-perversion-of-two-verses/

Entirely a different topic than what Lev 18:22 is attempted to be used for. Isn't that defiling God's word?
 
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mkgal1

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Article linked above said:
The problem with all these translations is they don’t reflect what the Hebrew actually says. Here are my literal translations of both verses:

Lev. 18:22:
“And with a male you will not lay (on) the couches/beds of a woman; it is an abomination.”

Lev. 20:13:
“And a man who lays with a male (on) the couches/beds of a woman, the two of them have made an abomination, and dying they will die; their blood is upon them.”


These verses aren’t talking about homosexuality at all, especially in light of the context of Molech worship. An interesting parallel appears in Isaiah:

“Upon a high and lofty mountain you have set your bed, and there you went up to offer sacrifice. Behind the door and the doorpost you have set up your symbol; for in deserting me, you have uncovered your bed, you have gone up to it, you have made it wide; and you have made a bargain for yourself with them, you have loved theirbed, you have gazed on their nakedness. You journeyed to Molechwith oil, and multiplied your perfumes; you sent your envoys far away, and sent down even to Sheol.” (Isa. 57:7-9 NRSV [italics mine]).

Clearly, in this text, setting up your bed is a symbol for worship of Molech. Perhaps the same is true in Leviticus. And since both Levitical verses speak of lying with a male on the beds of a woman, perhaps the issue is sacred prostitution, not homosexuality.

Context is everything.
 
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tall73

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I'm willing to discuss this passage with you, Tall, as historically you've shown yourself to be respectful and focused.

This is what school of thought I belong to:

“Abomination” (TO’EBAH) is a technical cultic term for what is ritually unclean, such as mixed cloth, pork, and intercourse with menstruating women. It’s not about a moral or ethical issue. This Holiness Code (chapters 17-26) proscribes men “lying the lyings of women.” Such mixing of sex roles was thought to be polluting. But both Jesus and Paul rejected all such ritual distinctions (cf. Mark 7:17-23; Romans 14:14,20). The Fundamentalist Journal admits that this Code condemns “idolatrous practices” and “ceremonial uncleaness” and concludes: “We are not bound by these commands today.”~http://ecinc.org/clobber-passages/leviticus-1822-2013/

the chapter following (still part of the Holiness Code) has this passage (as a continuation)

I will address in more depth this notion of a holiness code in chapters 17-26 later on as I have limited time at the moment.

However, this view that none of the commands in this section would still be relevant today, cannot be sustained.

Lev 18:6 "None of you shall approach any one of his close relatives to uncover nakedness. I am the LORD.
Lev 18:7 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, which is the nakedness of your mother; she is your mother, you shall not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:8 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife; it is your father's nakedness.


Uncovering the nakedness of your father's wife was prohibited. Paul, speaking to the predominantly gentile Christians in Corinth still held to this view, and even states that this was not tolerated among the pagans:

1Co 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

Moreover, in Leviticus 18 the practices involved were said to have been done by the former inhabitants of the land and resulted in their judgment. So these are not only for Israelite ritual purity. They were severe enough sins that God punished those previous nations for them.


 
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mkgal1

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However, this view that none of the commands in this section would still be relevant today, cannot be sustained.

That's not quite what that article said though. The article said, “We are not bound by these commands" (and that particular statement was based on making the point that this specific passage is about ceremonial uncleanness). That's different than a blanket statement about "none of the commands being relevant". There were commands in those chapters about not lying, not being unjust and treating people with favoritism---those things certainly are relevant today.

You seem to be making sub-categories for the commands.....and I'm of the belief that it all goes together. The main point is that God desires His people to be set apart and holy as He is holy (that's repeated throughout Leviticus). I glean from most of the OT that He desired for His people to love only Him and not just consider Him as "just another god" in the mix. I believe that Exodus 14:31 demonstrates *why* God desires His people to *only* follow Him.....it reaps results like this:

Exodus 14:31 said:
When the people of Israel saw the mighty power that the LORD had unleashed against the Egyptians, they were filled with awe before him. They put their faith in the LORD and in his servant Moses.

and in Daniel--the account can be summed up with these verses:

Daniel 6:16 said:
Then the king [Darius] commanded, and Daniel was brought and cast into the den of lions. The king declared to Daniel, “May your God, whom you serve continually, deliver you!”

Daniel 6:25-26 said:
Then Darius the king wrote to all the peoples, nations and men of every language who were living in all the land: "May your peace abound! "I make a decree that in all the dominion of my kingdom men are to fear and tremble before the God of Daniel; For He is the living God and enduring forever, And His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed, And His dominion will be forever.…
That can't happen without the undivided devotion to Him--and Him alone (as Daniel had). To me.....that's the main theme all throughout Leviticus (undiluted.....unpolluted.....undeterred devotion to the only Living God).


There's a thread (or theme) of purity all through these chapters (a very high standard of purity--things like not wearing mixed fabric, not eating pork, careful instructions for food used in sacrifices, trimming of beards, etc). Not everything pertains to sexuality. I'm not even convinced-at the moment- that the offense in Lev 18:22 even has to do with sex. It could just mean that the men are lying on the couches/beds that are meant for women (and that would be impure)....much like the mixing of seeds in a field or wearing mixed fabric clothing.
 
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mkgal1

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Moreover, in Leviticus 18 the practices involved were said to have been done by the former inhabitants of the land and resulted in their judgment. So these are not only for Israelite ritual purity. They were severe enough sins that God punished those previous nations for them.

Lev 20:23 says, “You shall not follow the practices of the nation that I am driving out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them” (NRSV).....so you're correct. God hated idolatry---no matter *who* was worshiping other gods. True.

You said, "So these are not only for Israelite ritual purity". Do you mean "these" as the list of commands? I believe they were. Israel is God's chosen nation....and He gave these commands to set them apart from the other nations. He didn't claim the other nations as "His"---the way I see it---so they were free to do as they wish (much like we can). That doesn't mean it doesn't grieve Him or that He's approving of their (idolatrous) behavior.
 
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LinkH

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mkgal1,

Paul said a widow may marry whosoever she wills, but only in the Lord. The man who had his father's wife could have taken his father's widow to wife. Paul may have been condemning it because, as the Old Testament points out, this was a sexual sin for Gentiles... as it says in the passage that shows that men lying with men is a sin for Gentiles.

This is really all a moot point. In speaking of 'men', Paul describes the desire to perform certain sexual acts as 'vile affections.' Paul breaks down sexual sins into different categories in this passage,


I Corinthians 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
(ESV)

Why do you think Paul puts those extra categories of sexual sin in there?
 
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tall73

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That's not quite what that article said though. The article said, “We are not bound by these commands" (and that particular statement was based on making the point that this specific passage is about ceremonial uncleanness). That's different than a blanket statement about "none of the commands being relevant". There were commands in those chapters about not lying, not being unjust and treating people with favoritism---those things certainly are relevant today.

When you say such things as :
the chapter following (still part of the Holiness Code) has this passage (as a continuation

I thought you were applying it to the whole section. What is the significance of this holiness code to you? Why mention it? It seems a misnomer to me because they were to be holy in all their actions, and all the law referenced this.


You seem to be making sub-categories for the commands.....and I'm of the belief that it all goes together.

As I said in the other thread as moral, ritual, laws etc., were part of one law. However the source you pointed to was talking about this holiness code which they see starting at one point and going to another point. And it talked about how some commands do not deal with ethical or moral requirements. So I am responding the to the source you quoted which is dividing them into either moral or ritual commands. Why would you quote a source that has that view if that is not what you are trying to say?

In any case, if you acknowledge moral commands in this section, then we cannot simply dismiss these commands alongside of Sabbath keeping, clean and unclean foods, etc. as you earlier referenced, without examining whether they really are dealing just with ritual laws for Israel.

Since the nations before were judged by doing them, it is clear the moral principle behind these specific commands go beyond Israel.

There's a thread (or theme) of purity all through these chapters (a very high standard of purity--things like not wearing mixed fabric, not eating pork, careful instructions for food used in sacrifices, trimming of beards, etc). Not everything pertains to sexuality.

I'm not even convinced-at the moment- that the offense in Lev 18:22 even has to do with sex. It could just mean that the men are lying on the couches/beds that are meant for women (and that would be impure)....much like the mixing of seeds in a field or wearing mixed fabric clothing.

Nor did I indicate everything in the section pertains to sexuality. And of course, the whole of the law dealt with purity as I posted in the other thread, because God dwelt in their midst. However, it is not limited just to those chapters. The chapter before, 16 spells out the method for dealing with all the sins and impurity, chapter 11 deals with unclean animals, etc. so it seems rather arbitrary for them to put the section that they did as a holiness code.

However, as to the sexual nature of it, it is in the same chapter and close context with other improper sexual relations, and the nations before this were cast out of the land for it. Are you suggesting the prior inhabitants were cast out for two men reclining on the wrong bed when they were not warned of this?

In particular it is in close connection to verse 23, and seems parallel with it. It seems quite unlikely vs 23 is prohibiting sleeping in the area for animals, especially as women are forbidden to present themselves for the occasion and the word used is the same as that for copulation between different kinds of animals in chapter 19. The context is sexual.

Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
Lev 18:23 And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion.
 
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tall73

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Lev 20:23 says, “You shall not follow the practices of the nation that I am driving out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them” (NRSV).....so you're correct. God hated idolatry---no matter *who* was worshiping other gods. True.

You said, "So these are not only for Israelite ritual purity". Do you mean "these" as the list of commands? I believe they were. Israel is God's chosen nation....and He gave these commands to set them apart from the other nations. He didn't claim the other nations as "His"---the way I see it---so they were free to do as they wish (much like we can). That doesn't mean it doesn't grieve Him or that He's approving of their (idolatrous) behavior.

The commands were given for them, but also the ones referenced in 18 and 20 when indicating the previous nations were vomited out for it were such obvious sins that He punished the nations before for violating them.

Therefore, while they were given to Israel in the Mosaic code, they were still wrong for others besides Israel.
 
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tall73

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I don't see how any of that post is relevant. We're not discussing Corinthians right now. Let's not muddy the waters any more.

The first part of his post is relevant because one of the commands, dealing with improper sexual relations, which even the former inhabitants were judged for, in Lev. 18 is specifically still said to be wrong in Paul's day to the Corinthians, and he says even the pagans do not tolerate that kind of sinning. And if it was only talking about cultic worship, then clearly the pagans would tolerate that. But it is talking about sexual relations between a man and the wife of his father.

This is important because it shows a continuing principle in regards to the prohibition of a sexual sin referenced in the chapter, for people beyond Israel, and not just in connection with pagan worship.
 
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tall73

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The problem with all these translations is they don’t reflect what the Hebrew actually says. Here are my literal translations of both verses:

Lev. 18:22:
“And with a male you will not lay (on) the couches/beds of a woman; it is an abomination.”

Lev. 20:13:
“And a man who lays with a male (on) the couches/beds of a woman, the two of them have made an abomination, and dying they will die; their blood is upon them.”

The laying on a bed idiom is talking about sexual relations:

Gen 35:22 While Israel lived in that land, Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine. And Israel heard of it. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve.

Gen 49:4 Unstable as water, you shall not have preeminence, because you went up to your father's bed; then you defiled it—he went up to my couch!


The issue in 49:4 is not that Reuben went and sat on the couch clearly as Gen 35 which it references reveals.

Apart from wanting it to mean something else, I am not sure how one could really suggest it means something else. You can consult quite a number of translations and commentaries and find that they seem to have agreement on how to handle the text.
 
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LinkH

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I don't see how any of that post is relevant. We're not discussing Corinthians right now. Let's not muddy the waters any more.

I Corinthians 6 is not mud. It's all related. You have a theory about the Holiness code. But it leads you to a different conclusion from other scripture on the matter.

There is another verse in Leviticus, 20:13, which addresses the issue
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."
(ESV)

If I remember corrected, 'lies with a man' in the Greek Septuagint is 'arsenos koiten.' Paul, or someone else, may have made a word out of this used in I Corinthians 5, 'arsenokoites'. This is the word translated 'abusers of themselves with mankind' in the KJV, or 'homosexual' or 'those who practice homosexuality' and various other ways in English translations.

According to the scholar Edersheim (a Jewish convert who was an Anglican and Presbyterian minister in the 1800s, whose works are still used today), Hellenistic synagogues used the Greek Septuagint. They even argued minute points of doctrine out of it like Hebrew synagogues did with the Hebrew text. Many believed it to have been inspired, translated the same by 70 elders working independently. It was a translation that shaped the language of Jewish religious discourse in the Greek language, and it is quoted in the New Testament.

Paul wrote to Timothy that arsenokoites are written against in the law.
 
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LinkH

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In particular it is in close connection to verse 23, and seems parallel with it. It seems particularly unlikely vs 23 is prohibiting sleeping in the area for animals, especially as women are forbidden to present themselves for the occasion and the word used is the same as that for copulation between different kinds of animals in chapter 19. The context is sexual.

Mothers sleeping in the bed with their babies was not against the Law. Solomon did not decree that the two prostitutes who had slept with their babies in their beds and argued over whose baby was the living one had broken the law of Leviticus 18 by lying with their children.

In Luke 11, Jesus told of a neighbor knocking and insisting another neighbor lend him bread to feed a guest at night. The man in the house said the children were with him in bed. This isn't what Leviticus 18 is talking about. Clearly the context of Leviticus 18 is sexual.

OKay, that's overkill. Can we all agree that these verses in Leviticus 18 are about sex?
 
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tall73

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I Corinthians 6 is not mud. It's all related. You have a theory about the Holiness code. But it leads you to a different conclusion from other scripture on the matter.

There is another verse in Leviticus, 20:13, which addresses the issue
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."
(ESV)

If I remember corrected, 'lies with a man' in the Greek Septuagint is 'arsenos koiten.' Paul, or someone else, may have made a word out of this used in I Corinthians 5, 'arsenokoites'. This is the word translated 'abusers of themselves with mankind' in the KJV, or 'homosexual' or 'those who practice homosexuality' and various other ways in English translations.

According to the scholar Edersheim (a Jewish convert who was an Anglican and Presbyterian minister in the 1800s, whose works are still used today), Hellenistic synagogues used the Greek Septuagint. They even argued minute points of doctrine out of it like Hebrew synagogues did with the Hebrew text. Many believed it to have been inspired, translated the same by 70 elders working independently. It was a translation that shaped the language of Jewish religious discourse in the Greek language, and it is quoted in the New Testament.

Paul wrote to Timothy that arsenokoites are written against in the law.

Apart from the 70 elders tradition, or the use in Hellenistic synagogues, the Septuagint-type text is what we see most often in the New Testament quotations of Scripture. Some follow the Masoretic, some follow a text that does not match either completely, but the Septuagint is the most common. It became the Scriptures for the Greek speaking eastern church, and in fact continues to be today for Greek Orthodox.
 
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I Corinthians 6 is not mud. It's all related. You have a theory about the Holiness code. But it leads you to a different conclusion from other scripture on the matter.

I think she is simply referencing that this is thread one, looking at the one text, where I Cor. 6 may be slated for another thread as well since it is a "clobber" text.

Or to put it another way, she thinks that one is in dispute as well, so it has to be looked at individually.

However, the point about I Corinthians 5 still stands, because Paul is referencing a situation spelled out in Lev. 18, and I have seen no one dispute that text.

The terminology discussion from I Corinthians 6 however is important nonetheless as it may well derive from the Leviticus passage. So I can see that part coming in here since she is disputing the nature of the phrase. Unless one thinks Paul is talking about men who just hang out with other men on couches in I Cor. 6, and says to the primarily gentile Corinthian church that they will not inherit the kingdom of God for such, then it is talking about sex as well.

Below are the Greek verses

Lev 20:13 καὶ ὃς ἂν κοιμηθῇ μετὰ ἄρσενος κοίτην γυναικός, βδέλυγμα ἐποίησαν ἀμφότεροι· θανατούσθωσαν, ἔνοχοί εἰσιν.

1Co 6:9 ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ἄδικοι βασιλείαν Θεοῦ οὐ κληρονομήσουσι; μὴ πλανᾶσθε· οὔτε πόρνοι οὔτε εἰδωλολάτραι οὔτε μοιχοὶ οὔτε μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται
 
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