Fish who won't evolve.

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ScottA

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The greatest of ironies exist among Atheists and scientists, who campaign for evolution, but cannot even conceive evolving themselves or ascending to anything higher than their best organic self.

Nonetheless, they end up here, here at the edge of their physical world gazing shoreward, not knowing there is more than a world above their own, but also waters above and beyond. These are fish out of water, and their instinct is to wiggle and fight and return to the sea...and why wouldn't they? Their eyes cannot see above, even in the air, let alone the waters above.

For most of us, it was fishers of men that lured us in. Some were born flying fish. Some didn't wait to be caught, but jumped in the boat. But the fish analogy only goes so far to explain, that like the waters below, there is also waters above, that great reef in the sky.

But how do you tell a fish that will not evolve about dry land, or prove what is dry...while immersed? How do you tell a landlocked fish about other waters, when they cannot and will not come out of the water?

Treating them like deadbeat couch potatoes isn't working. Any ideas?

PS, Greeting them with open arms isn't really working either. Isaiah 65:2
 
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Davian

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Extraneous

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Spirituality is the greatest frontier. When we die what will science matter to us to us then? Only spiritualism matters at that point.

However, scientifically speaking, death is the ultimate scientific tool. It will help us travel past the known universe, into the great unknown. The greatest scientific experiment is already in motion. Why waste time measuring the age of rocks? Where we are going there are no rocks to date.
 
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ScottA

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So in non-poetic terms, what is your point?
Poetic analogy...is all we have to speak with people whose existence is limited by their physicalness, who are not capable of crossing the spiritual barrier to life beyond the world. That is the point.

The problem is [like] telling an isolated tribe of people about the outside world, about civilization...only worse, because their barrier is greater than cultural, etc.. The problem, also, is, even though we are not actually trying to prove or sell anything, we couldn't if we tried...because the proof is all unattainable to them. A better analogy than fish, would be "darkness": we simply can't show them light...because, even if we could, it would destroy them. So, proof, evidence, demonstrations...they're just not possible - not because of our inability to tread between these two different world ourselves - but because they're not able. Does that make sense?
 
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TheQuietRiot

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To make us "evolve" you need only show us real tangible evidence.

But you don't have any, and neither does any other religion.

Quoting from a holy text or being very pious does little to sway my beliefs because I can look at any religious follower from almost any religion and find the same conviction. Why are they wrong and Christians are right? Well, you can't all be right.. but you can all be wrong.
 
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Poetic analogy...is all we have to speak with people whose existence is limited by their physicalness, who are not capable of crossing the spiritual barrier to life beyond the world. That is the point.

Well can you try to use non-analogies to make your point?

You seem to think that atheists can't imagine becoming anything 'higher' than what they are. I don't think that is true. Many atheist, like myself, were Christians.

The problem is [like] telling an isolated tribe of people about the outside world, about civilization...only worse, because their barrier is greater than cultural, etc.. The problem, also, is, even though we are not actually trying to prove or sell anything, we couldn't if we tried...because the proof is all unattainable to them. A better analogy than fish, would be "darkness": we simply can't show them light...because, even if we could, it would destroy them. So, proof, evidence, demonstrations...there just not possible - not because of our inability to tread between these two different world ourselves - but because they're not able. Does that make sense?

You think evidence of God would destroy us? So how does one justifiably believe in God?
 
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ScottA

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To make us "evolve" you need only show us real tangible evidence.

But you don't have any, and neither does any other religion.

Quoting from a holy text or being very pious does little to sway my beliefs because I can look at any religious follower from almost any religion and find the same conviction. Why are they wrong and Christians are right? Well, you can't all be right.. but you can all be wrong.
You need to pay more attention. I just explained how and why that is impossible...and how it is no loss to us, only to you. Whatever.
 
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Extraneous

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To make us "evolve" you need only show us real tangible evidence.

But you don't have any, and neither does any other religion.

Quoting from a holy text or being very pious does little to sway my beliefs because I can look at any religious follower from almost any religion and find the same conviction. Why are they wrong and Christians are right? Well, you can't all be right.. but you can all be wrong.

There difference between spiritualism and religion. Religion is feel good and popular, while spiritualism is a real journey that takes place in the depths of our soul. You know the soul exists because it is what you feel. You don't deny yourself, do you? Science cannot possibly go there. Its like trying to fly a kite into outer space. Science, in all its glory, is futile. In the end, the glory of science will fade along with us, just as a flower fades and withers. That is science and all that is in the world. You however have a soul. That is actually the only thing that is real because its all thats left when everything else is gone. Do you see? Science thinks that spirituality is an illusion, but its actually science that is the illusion.
 
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ScottA

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Well can you try to use non-analogies to make your point?

You seem to think that atheists can't imagine becoming anything 'higher' than what they are. I don't think that is true. Many atheist, like myself, were Christians.

You think evidence of God would destroy us? So how does one justifiably believe in God?
  1. No, I already explained that.
  2. There are Christians and then there are Christians. Being a follower of Christ is one thing, being born again of the spirit of God is another. There are no former born again Christians. But the point is, if you are not born again of the spirit of God, you are simply an organic being, and have no capacity to understand spiritual matters, you have not "entered in" to that other realm and kingdom of God.
  3. There are only two choices: Life or death. By believing in God, you die to this world, but gain eternal life.
 
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The greatest of ironies exist among Atheists and scientists, who campaign for evolution, but cannot even conceive evolving themselves or ascending to anything higher than their best organic self.

Nonetheless, they end up here, here at the edge of their physical world gazing shoreward, not knowing there is more than a world above their own, but also waters above and beyond. These are fish out of water, and their instinct is to wiggle and fight and return to the sea...and why wouldn't they? Their eyes cannot see above, even in the air, let alone the waters above.

For most of us, it was fishers of men that lured us in. Some were born flying fish. Some didn't wait to be caught, but jumped in the boat. But the fish analogy only goes so far to explain, that like the waters below, there is also waters above, that great reef in the sky.

But how do you tell a fish that will not evolve about dry land, or prove what is dry...while immersed? How do you tell a landlocked fish about other waters, when they cannot and will not come out of the water?

Treating them like deadbeat couch potatoes isn't working. Any ideas?

PS, Greeting them with open arms isn't really working either. Isaiah 65:2

You might just have a promising career as a science fantasy author.
 
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Paradoxum

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No, I already explained that.
That you don't want to try?

If you can't say what you mean in straightforward words then I see no reason to think you are necessarily saying anything at all.

I'm just asking for you to say what your basic point is.

There are Christians and then there are Christians. Being a follower of Christ is one thing, being born again of the spirit of God is another. There are no former born again Christians. But the point is, if you are not born again of the spirit of God, you are simply an organic being, and have no capacity to understand spiritual matters, you have not "entered in" to that other realm and kingdom of God.

I know people like you think that, but I was as Christian as any Christian. I was 'born again', loved God, and was as committed as many others.

There are only two choices: Life or death. By believing in God, you die to this world, but gain eternal life.

I don't believe in God though.
 
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TheQuietRiot

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You need to pay more attention. I just explained how and why that is impossible...and how it is no loss to us, only to you. Whatever.

Then it would seem we both have effectively the same position.

I think any time you commit to religious are a complete waste and will not stop the inevitable and verifiable end that is awaiting you and I and any life that has ever existed.

Worm food and nothing more.

But it's no loss to me, only you. :)

There difference between spiritualism and religion. Religion is feel good and popular, while spiritualism is a real journey that takes place in the depths of our soul. You know the soul exists because it is what you feel. You don't deny yourself, do you? Science cannot possibly go there. Its like trying to fly a kite into outer space. Science, in all its glory, is futile. In the end, the glory of science will fade along with us, just as a flower fades and withers. That is science and all that is in the world. You however have a soul. That is actually the only thing that is real because its all thats left when everything else is gone. Do you see? Science thinks that spirituality is an illusion, but its actually science that is the illusion.

Well no, I don't believe in any concept of a soul or any superstitious and supernatural beliefs. They are human fabrications.

But if you are comparing science to spirituality you are outclassed when it comes to achievements.

Science has put man on the moon
Science has fed and provided clean water for billions of people
Science provided a way for you and I to communicate.
Ultimately science will be responsible for saving (or possibly destroying if we get too out of hand) mankind. The only guaranteed way of preserving the human race in the distant future will be to leave our solar system when the Sun begins to die.

What has spirituality given us?
 
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Extraneous

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Then it would seem we both have effectively the same position.

I think any time you commit to religious are a complete waste and will not stop the inevitable and verifiable end that is awaiting you and I and any life that has ever existed.

Worm food and nothing more.

But it's no loss to me, only you. :)



Well no, I don't believe in any concept of a soul or any superstitious and supernatural beliefs. They are human fabrications.

But if you are comparing science to spirituality you are outclassed when it comes to achievements.

Science has put man on the moon
Science has fed and provided clean water for billions of people
Science provided a way for you and I to communicate.
Ultimately science will be responsible for saving (or possibly destroying if we get too out of hand) mankind. The only guaranteed way of preserving the human race in the distant future will be to leave our solar system when the Sun begins to die.

What has spirituality given us?


WHy are you worried about the future of the Sun? You wont be around anymore, and you will exist in that place that you say we only imagine.
 
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TheQuietRiot

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WHy are you worried about the future of the Sun? You wont be around anymore, and you will exist in that place that you say we only imagine.

When did I say I was worried about it?

And until shown evidence to the contrary it is imagination.
 
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