Finding the Holy Spirit before you believe in God

[Moral Orel]

You said the Bible presents conflicting morals. Do you have any examples of these "conflicting morals"?

What did God order anyone to do that you find "reprehensible"?

You realize that several of the things you listed are not things God approves of or commands, but merely things the Old Testament describes, right.

I had thought that being the "seeker" on this thread I wouldn't be the one teaching other people about what is in the Bible, but if you insist, here are some examples:
Cannibalism:
Leviticus 26:27-29, Isaiah 49:26, Deuteronomy 28:53-57, Jeremiah 19:9, Ezekial 5:8-10
Genocide:
Deuteronomy 7:2, Deuteronomy 7:16, Deuteronomy 7:20, Deuteronomy 13:15, Deuteronomy 20:16
Slavery:
Deuteronomy 20:10-15
Not one of these examples is of people doing things in the Old Testament on their own. Each and every one is either God commanding people to do them, or is God doing them himself.

And...? Do you have a job? Do you obey your boss?

I go home after work too. I earn money by working. I can quit my job. My boss doesn't have the right to sell me to some other boss. Big, BIG difference between having a job and being a slave.

Yes. Give me your best example of a contradiction in the Bible.

Okay, just one.

No Ammonite or Moabite may enter the assembly of the Lord. Even to the tenth generation, none of them may enter the assembly of the Lord forever -- Deuteronomy 23:3​

But then along comes Ruth the Moabite. I don't need to cite where the Bible mentions her do I? She converts to Judaism, marries a Jewish man, and then descended from her is David and Jesus.

But I'll go one step further and point out a contradiction with this and add another one. Jesus was the son of Mary and God right? He wasn't related to Joseph at all, right?

But the Old Testament says that the Messiah will come from David's bloodline (Jeremiah 23:5, Psalms 132:11) but then who do they track the genealogy of when they prove that Jesus's bloodline fits with prophecy? Joseph. They do it twice, once in Matthew 1 and once in Luke 3. So either this prophecy didn't add up because Jesus didn't come from David's bloodline because he wasn't related to Joseph, or somehow he did come from this bloodline which would make him a descendant of a Moabite.

Best answer to this I have heard was that Ruth lived in Moabite lands after the Jews drove them out, so she was a Jew, and not a Moabite. Trouble with this is that the book of Ruth is famous for being a Jewish conversion when she pledges that she will assume a Jew's God as her own. To top that off, you don't call yourself by the people you conquer. I live in America, but I don't call myself a Native American do I?

Seems kind of dishonest to bring them up and then, when somebody calls your bluff, say this isn't the place to discuss them.

I just meant the parts of the Old Testament that describe the rules surrounding slavery, such as:
How badly can you beat your slaves? Exodus 21:20-21
What is the process of breeding new slaves? Exodus 21:2-6

So does it make it a little clearer now how someone might have a bit of trouble reconciling all of these things and finding God to be the loving entity that the New Testament describes him to be? The point of this thread was to ask how I can see these things in the same light that Christians do, because somehow they are not terrible acts. If they were anyone else, in any other context, they would be. I was asking how it is that I can see things the same way that Christians do.

 

[South Bound]

I had thought that being the "seeker" on this thread I wouldn't be the one teaching other people about what is in the Bible, but if you insist, here are some examples:
Cannibalism:
Leviticus 26:27-29, Isaiah 49:26, Deuteronomy 28:53-57, Jeremiah 19:9, Ezekial 5:8-10

Gnocide:
Deuteronomy 7:2, Deuteronomy 7:16, Deuteronomy 7:20, Deuteronomy 13:15, Deuteronomy 20:16

Slavery:
Deuteronomy 20:10-15
Not one of these examples is of people doing things in the Old Testament on their own. Each and every one is either God commanding people to do them, or is God doing them himself.

And this, of course, would be dishonesty on your part.

For instance, literally, every one of the cannibalism verses you cited are not God causing nor commanding cannibalism. They're prophecies of how the society will be degraded when they turn their back on God.

I go home after work too. I earn money by working.

So did they.

I can quit my job.

Not if you have a contract to work for a specified period of time.

My boss doesn't have the right to sell me to some other boss. Big, BIG difference between having a job and being a slave.

Not in that culture. You're confusing chattel slavery with indenture.

Okay, just one.

No Ammonite or Moabite may enter the assembly of the Lord. Even to the tenth generation, none of them may enter the assembly of the Lord forever -- Deuteronomy 23:3​

But then along comes Ruth the Moabite. I don't need to cite where the Bible mentions her do I? She converts to Judaism, marries a Jewish man, and then descended from her is David and Jesus.

Actually, she converted to Judaism long before that, in Ruth 1:16.

So what's the contradiction?

But I'll go one step further and point out a contradiction with this and add another one. Jesus was the son of Mary and God right? He wasn't related to Joseph at all, right?

No. He was Joseph's son.

But the Old Testament says that the Messiah will come from David's bloodline (Jeremiah 23:5, Psalms 132:11) but then who do they track the genealogy of when they prove that Jesus's bloodline fits with prophecy? Joseph.

And tracking Jesus' genealogy through His father is a contradiction...how, exactly?

I live in America, but I don't call myself a Native American do I?

We do if we're born here.

So does it make it a little clearer now how someone might have a bit of trouble reconciling all of these things and finding God to be the loving entity that the New Testament describes him to be? The point of this thread was to ask how I can see these things in the same light that Christians do, because somehow they are not terrible acts. If they were anyone else, in any other context, they would be. I was asking how it is that I can see things the same way that Christians do.

Yes, I can see how ignorance can lead someone to misunderstand scripture.

The problem is that I don't think your misunderstandings are based on ignorance, but are based on malice. For instance, literally NONE of the verses you cited are in context.

You acknowledge that Ruth converted to Judaism and to the Nation of Israel, but then insisted she be judged as Moabite.

It sound like you're just looking to argue against God, rather than trying to learn what His Word says.

But this is what the Lord says: “Yes, captives will be taken from warriors, and plunder retrieved from the fierce; I will contend with those who contend with you, and your children I will save. I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh; they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine. Then all mankind will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.” Isaiah 49:26
When God says he's going to do something, we should interpret that as "this thing will just happen to them without God intervening?"

Again, it's a prophecy, not a command or a declaration. Please read the entire passage.

Indentured servitude existed, sure, but that wasn't the only way that a person became a slave

But it is the way referenced in the verses you cited.

She shouldn't be able to convert to Judaism at all.

That's not your call to make.

She was a Moabite and not allowed to enter the Assembly of God.

The Bible says she converted to Judaism and became a part of the Nation of Islam.

He was Joseph's step son.

Actually, that's a modern distinction, not a Biblical one. In the Bible, a son is a son is a son. No step sons, no adopted sons, no foster sons. Just sons.

Absolutely not. White people don't get to call themselves "Native Americans".

We do if we're native to America, which most of us still are.

 

[Moral Orel]

For instance, literally, every one of the cannibalism verses you cited are not God causing nor commanding cannibalism. They're prophecies of how the society will be degraded when they turn their back on God.

But this is what the Lord says: “Yes, captives will be taken from warriors, and plunder retrieved from the fierce; I will contend with those who contend with you, and your children I will save. I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh; they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine. Then all mankind will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.” Isaiah 49:26
When God says he's going to do something, we should interpret that as "this thing will just happen to them without God intervening?"

Not in that culture. You're confusing chattel slavery with indenture.

You need to check your history. Indentured servitude existed, sure, but that wasn't the only way that a person became a slave and even if you were an indentured servant, you weren't treated like an employee. Here's some info on slavery during Roman times: http://www.pbs.org/empires/romans/empire/slaves_freemen.html
And if you read the description of slavery in the Old Testament, there's no reason to believe it was any different from the way slavery was described in Mosaic law.

Actually, she converted to Judaism long before that, in Ruth 1:16.

She shouldn't be able to convert to Judaism at all. She was a Moabite and not allowed to enter the Assembly of God.

No. He was Joseph's son.

He was Joseph's step son. He was not related to Joseph in any other way. Unless you're going to tell me now that everyone has the whole version of the story wrong in that Mary and Joseph did have sex before Jesus was born.

We do if we're born here.

Absolutely not. White people don't get to call themselves "Native Americans".

 

[JESUSKiDtommy]

Op: I feel it is important to mention that Jesus said to Nicodemus regarding being born of the spirit (that I equate to "saving faith") "you can hear the wind in the trees but you don't know where it came from or where it is going. That is how people are born of the spirit."

.. Which seems to indicate that The Holy Spirit gives saving faith. Though I can't approach this poster here due to forum rules, you are allowed to seek clarification from him, perhaps requesting scriptural support for his idea.

To clarify I agree totally that the HOLY SPIRIT draws us.... My intended meaning was to say that the HOLY SPIRIT OF CHRIST LOVE BEING ALIVE AND WORKING IN A PERSONS HEART can not occur before salvation

 

[oi_antz]

To clarify I agree totally that the HOLY SPIRIT draws us.... My intended meaning was to say that the HOLY SPIRIT OF CHRIST LOVE BEING ALIVE AND WORKING IN A PERSONS HEART can not occur before salvation

Op, you should probe this poster, I am not allowed to. Jesus said many are called but few are chosen. Also the book of life is not opened until the end of this system. So I rather do not view salvation as certainly have been granted until it is actually demonstrated, even if someone is responding to The Holy Spirit. It seems that no such promises are given in the scriptures. But salvation can mean a few different things anyway, depending what threat we are being saved from.

 

[JESUSKiDtommy]

Op, you should probe this poster, I am not allowed to. Jesus said many are called but few are chosen. Also the book of life is not opened until the end of this system. So I rather do not view salvation as certainly have been granted until it is actually demonstrated, even if someone is responding to The Holy Spirit. It seems that no such promises are given in the scriptures. But salvation can mean a few different things anyway, depending what threat we are being saved from.

Brother we are not going to get into a debate here... I refuse... this will be my last post to you in this thread and I will simply ask a question.... If the second greatest commandment is not second greatest in your heart... what makes you think the rest of your theology is correct?

 

[mmksparbud]

You've got yourself twisted into a nice little knot courtesy of Soren Kierkegaard. The Bible never countenances a leap of faith. When Jesus was approached on the subject He responded this way:

The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”

And the Lord said, “If you had faith like a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. -Luke 17:5-6
​

Essentially He told them that they should use what faith they had, however little it might have been, rather than sitting around pining for more. And all men have a measure of faith, or there would be no ground for judgment. We are made in His image.

Blind leaps are indeed dangerous. That's why they're never advocated in the Bible. Instead, the Bereans, for one example, were commended for something quite the opposite:

Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. -Acts 17:11 ​

Ultimately, there are no excuses. No man is going to be able to justify himself before God (cf Rom 3.20). Otherwise Christ need not have died.

There is a gateway scripture that provides the way out of the Kierkegaardian dilemma.

If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. -John 7:17 ​

If you approach God with a willing heart, and ask Him to supply what you need to believe, this is His promise that He will answer. Everyone who asks, receives, etc (Mt 7.8). But you can see there is a requirement that has to be met before the promise kicks in.

And if you're having problems with being willing, you can try this:

Lord, I am willing to be made willing. ​

God doesn't ask us for what we can't provide. The blind leap of faith is unnecessary. Ultimately it comes down to the condition of the heart. See the parable of the Sower (Mk 4). The seed of the Word needs loose, protected soil which it can penetrate. It also will need water, fertilizer and weeding, but that's another story.

---If the Holy Spirit were not working in you---you would not even have these thoughts. Sometimes we have so much noise we can not hear the whispers. Faith increases with use, it can be a very slow process.

 

[KimT]

OP....Don't make it complicated. You would not be here if the Holy Spirit were not drawing you here. Faith will come when you read the Word. Read the gospel of John and pray for faith. Don't try to analyze it. God will make it simple for you.