Financial freedom...?

tremble

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That may very well be the case, so the child wouldn't have a very good relationship with his parents. But the child never ceases to be the parents' son. The relationship may not be very good, but the position of "son" (or daughter) doesn't change.

But weren't you the one saying that a relationship is what is most important with Jesus? Even though I was using a metaphor, the lesson still applies. Do you really think God is content with world full of children who claim they don't need to do what he tells them to simply because they are his children?
 
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Alithis

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But weren't you the one saying that a relationship is what is most important with Jesus? Even though I was using a metaphor, the lesson still applies. Do you really think God is content with world full of children who claim they don't need to do what he tells them to simply because they are his children?

no that was more me..

but the difference between the type of obedience your advocating and what we are advocating
is the difference between following a rule book and knowing ,walking-talking with,the author.

the jews had done what you advocate,albeit with the old testament,yet though they did it tenaciously they still missed it completely when God walked among them.
the Lord Jesus didnt say if you love me follow my teaching ..he said,my commands,what i tell "you" to do .. and he cannot lie so dont worry,he wont contradict his own words.
but if "a man" tells you to sell all ..then you are following "that man" .. not the lordJesus.

"my sheep HEAR my voiceand i know them and they follow me.

hear
voice
me.

following the book is not bad.
but knowing the author is the entire point the holy script is making.
 
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Aldebaran

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But weren't you the one saying that a relationship is what is most important with Jesus? Even though I was using a metaphor, the lesson still applies. Do you really think God is content with world full of children who claim they don't need to do what he tells them to simply because they are his children?

Maybe He wouldn't be "content", but we are still His children and have not thrown away the salvation He's given us as a gift.

Besides, I'm not telling you that we don't have to do ANYthing He tells us. We are gifted in different ways to do different things in life. Some of us are teachers, and I'm sure God is pleased with those people who use that gift to teach others about Christ. Others have other gifts. I don't know of anyone who is great at doing everything a Christian is told to do. Some are great at some of those things, and terrible at others. But it's not a competition either. We will be rewarded for what we've done according to the faith we've been given.

Back to the earthly parents and children analogy....
If a father has a son who does some of his chores on time every time, it will make the father pleased. If he has another son who does some of his chores on time, but others he forgets or balks about doing, I'm sure the father wouldn't like that as much, but he doesn't disown his son for it. That's because fatherhood isn't dependent upon what his son does for him.

I don't know what your life is like, or what your days were like growing up. It might have a lot to do with how you see God. If you want to tell me stuff like that, you can PM me.
 
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tremble

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but the difference between the type of obedience your advocating and what we are advocating is the difference between following a rule book and knowing ,walking-talking with,the author.

Okay let's try this a different way. Jesus gave commands. I know the word "commands" is a buzz word for you, but perhaps it's just a difference of perspective. Jesus had expectations for his followers. He gave instructions, or teachings, which he expected his followers to...follow. That is what makes them followers. They follow.

You are correct that they are not just an ordinary list of rules, but a way of life. However, in order to experience that way of life, we must apply the teachings. We must act on those teachings. For example, consider this list of rules from Jesus. I've selected commands which I'm fairly confident you will agree with.

1. Love God
2. Love your neighbor
3. Repent

These are rules. They are given as commands. They are not friendly suggestions. Jesus expects these commands to be followed. Jesus himself referred to the first two as commands. He used the word "command".

They are found in a book we call the "Bible". If we choose to appreciate the good sense in applying these teachings, it does not mean we are following a book just because we learned about these teachings from a book. All it means is that we appreciate the lessons behind the rules.

These are not just legalistic rules, because there are good reasons to follow these commands. It makes sense to follow them. That is what distinguishes these commands from what you refer to as, "a legalistic checklist of rules". It is not legalistic to show our love for God. It is not legalistic to show love for our neighbour. It is not legalistic to show our repentance through our behaviour.

There are also other commands given by Jesus. They are lesser commands, but they still relate to the greater commands because these lesser rules show us HOW to follow the greater rules. For example, if it is not legalistic to love God and our neighbour, then neither is it legalistic to follow a teaching which is designed to help us to love God and our neighbour.

Let's say you have a boss who tells you to do an important job, but you don't know how to do the job; you need help. So the boss writes out a list of instructions on how to get the job done. That makes sense, doesn’t it?

We could even say that, at first, you follow the list of instructions exactly as it is written because you lack confidence. But as you perform the list of jobs more and more, you will become more confident. At some point you may not even need to refer to the list anymore because you will understand the reasons behind the instructions on the list; you will be able to perform those tasks through experience rather than referring to the list. That does not make the list wrong or no longer necessary but just that you've become more experienced. When you become proficient, the boss may ask you to start performing different tasks which require a switch-up of the order of the list or to incorporate new instructions into the list, which will require new learning on your part.

This is what it is like with following Jesus' commands. At least at the start we are ignorant and lack confidence, so Jesus gave us commands to follow as a means of helping us to overcome our fears. If we will not follow simply because we understand the reasons for following, then at least we should follow because we are told to follow.

It's like a military commander at the edge of the high flying plane waiting for the soldier to jump. The soldier is frightened and inexperienced so he hesitates. The commander could stand there all day patiently waiting for the soldier to jump, but eventually the plane will exhaust it's fuel and need to land, with both the soldier and the commander feeling disappointed about the failure.

Or, the commander can give an order to the solider to jump. He doesn't give the command just because he enjoys telling people what to do. He gives the command because he knows it will help the soldier to overcome his fear. He may need to be told several times after that, but eventually he will gain enough experience to understand that he does not need to be told anymore. He will do the job because he understands how it works. But, for that first few times the command actually helped him to overcome his fear and ignorance.


It's the same thing with Jesus' commands. He knew that he was asking us to behave in a way which would be very contrary to all our understanding of how the worldly system works. He knew his teachings would challenge our fears and our greed. He knew we will find ways to hesitate. He knew we will struggle with some aspects of his radical new lifestyle. That is why he gave commands. He knows better than we do. That is why we should obey.
 
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tremble

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Maybe He wouldn't be "content", but we are still His children and have not thrown away the salvation He's given us as a gift.


I realize you find comfort in the idea that, "we will always be his children" but that simply isn't true. God will always love us, yes, even as he dishes out punishments and eternal judgements, he will still love us.

But it is not okay to hide our problems behind God's love for us. Grace is available, but he does not owe us anything. He can choose to withhold grace from us if he wants and he has said that he will do exactly that for those who decide they have no reason to change, (or in more religious terms, those who reject his spirit, whether it be in the form of Jesus' teachings or in the form of conviction when we hear the truth and choose to ignore it).

Besides, I'm not telling you that we don't have to do ANYthing He tells us. We are gifted in different ways to do different things in life. Some of us are teachers, and I'm sure God is pleased with those people who use that gift to teach others about Christ. Others have other gifts. I don't know of anyone who is great at doing everything a Christian is told to do. Some are great at some of those things, and terrible at others. But it's not a competition either. We will be rewarded for what we've done according to the faith we've been given.

I'm talking about basic spiritual principles. The foundation upon which all Christians must build. True, God gives different gifts to different people. Some people will witness through printed literature, while some through audio media, while still others through word of mouth or any number of other methods of communication.

Some people will travel all over the world while some will do very little travelling. Some will specialize in evangelism while others specialize in social work. Some will be better at administrative tasks while others are better at field work. Some will be better at understanding individual emotional/spiritual needs while others will be better at communicating to large numbers.

But within all of these various expressions of the kingdom of Heaven, the foundation is the same. The basic principles which Jesus taught are a requirement for all Christians.

We should not use "variety" as a reason to disregard those basic principles. I understand that you are having a hard time accepting some of the more radical lifestyle teachings Jesus gave us, and you are looking for ways to avoid those kind of changes but from my perspective you are missing out on such a wonderful life and all for the sake of hanging on to an inferior system, just because it's what you've always been used to. Earlier, you asked for my opinion and this is it. You are holding on to an illusion. You think you have safety and security in the system, but it's all so temporary.

While you cling to that illusion you miss out on so much about just how awesome it is to work for God. Eternity is real and it's coming fast. I know it's hard to appreciate that because we are used to hours, days, years, and decades. We experience life at a snails pace and we take it for granted just how short our time really is.

Get the right perspective; this time here on Earth is step one on the application for eternity. It's a sifting phase. God is looking for people he wants to spend eternity with and he's using our choices in this life to sort us all in to two categories; those who want to serve him and, well...everyone else.

Back to the earthly parents and children analogy....
If a father has a son who does some of his chores on time every time, it will make the father pleased. If he has another son who does some of his chores on time, but others he forgets or balks about doing, I'm sure the father wouldn't like that as much, but he doesn't disown his son for it. That's because fatherhood isn't dependent upon what his son does for him.

No, of course God is not dependent on us. But why would he want to spend eternity with someone who constantly argues with him or baulks at his instructions? I don't understand why you can't see such a simple lesson. Yeah, we make mistakes, but that is not the point you are arguing. You seem to be suggesting that God owes it to us to always put up with our bad attitudes. God would never disown us no matter how much we fight against him; that is simply not true.

You are putting your faith in a convenient doctrine meant to soothe your conscience. It's like applying aspirin to a severed leg and convincing yourself everything is alright, just because you don't want to go to the hospital.
 
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Norah63

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Its the two views of the nature of God.
One sees a heavenly Father that loves them without measure.
Another sees Him as the one to obey and hope for things to work out.
We try to understand each other, that seems best. Its not my part to change anyones view.
 
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peterandrewj

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Cares of the world will choke the word. Seek first the kingdom and his righteousness and all these things will be added unto you.

Was reading this Psalm and thought of this thread.

Psalm 73

1 Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.

2 But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped.

3 For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.

4 For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm.

5 They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men.

6 Therefore pride compasseth them about as a chain; violence covereth them as a garment.

----------

17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.

18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.

19 How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.

20 As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.

---------------

25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.

26 My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.

27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

28 But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord God, that I may declare all thy works
 
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Alithis

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Okay let's try this a different way. Jesus gave commands. I know the word "commands" is a buzz word for you, but perhaps it's just a difference of perspective. Jesus had expectations for his followers. He gave instructions, or teachings, which he expected his followers to...follow. That is what makes them followers. They follow.

You are correct that they are not just an ordinary list of rules, but a way of life. However, in order to experience that way of life, we must apply the teachings. We must act on those teachings. For example, consider this list of rules from Jesus. I've selected commands which I'm fairly confident you will agree with.

1. Love God
2. Love your neighbor
3. Repent

These are rules. They are given as commands. They are not friendly suggestions. Jesus expects these commands to be followed. Jesus himself referred to the first two as commands. He used the word "command".

They are found in a book we call the "Bible". If we choose to appreciate the good sense in applying these teachings, it does not mean we are following a book just because we learned about these teachings from a book. All it means is that we appreciate the lessons behind the rules.

These are not just legalistic rules, because there are good reasons to follow these commands. It makes sense to follow them. That is what distinguishes these commands from what you refer to as, "a legalistic checklist of rules". It is not legalistic to show our love for God. It is not legalistic to show love for our neighbour. It is not legalistic to show our repentance through our behaviour.

There are also other commands given by Jesus. They are lesser commands, but they still relate to the greater commands because these lesser rules show us HOW to follow the greater rules. For example, if it is not legalistic to love God and our neighbour, then neither is it legalistic to follow a teaching which is designed to help us to love God and our neighbour.

Let's say you have a boss who tells you to do an important job, but you don't know how to do the job; you need help. So the boss writes out a list of instructions on how to get the job done. That makes sense, doesn’t it?

We could even say that, at first, you follow the list of instructions exactly as it is written because you lack confidence. But as you perform the list of jobs more and more, you will become more confident. At some point you may not even need to refer to the list anymore because you will understand the reasons behind the instructions on the list; you will be able to perform those tasks through experience rather than referring to the list. That does not make the list wrong or no longer necessary but just that you've become more experienced. When you become proficient, the boss may ask you to start performing different tasks which require a switch-up of the order of the list or to incorporate new instructions into the list, which will require new learning on your part.

This is what it is like with following Jesus' commands. At least at the start we are ignorant and lack confidence, so Jesus gave us commands to follow as a means of helping us to overcome our fears. If we will not follow simply because we understand the reasons for following, then at least we should follow because we are told to follow.

It's like a military commander at the edge of the high flying plane waiting for the soldier to jump. The soldier is frightened and inexperienced so he hesitates. The commander could stand there all day patiently waiting for the soldier to jump, but eventually the plane will exhaust it's fuel and need to land, with both the soldier and the commander feeling disappointed about the failure.

Or, the commander can give an order to the solider to jump. He doesn't give the command just because he enjoys telling people what to do. He gives the command because he knows it will help the soldier to overcome his fear. He may need to be told several times after that, but eventually he will gain enough experience to understand that he does not need to be told anymore. He will do the job because he understands how it works. But, for that first few times the command actually helped him to overcome his fear and ignorance.


It's the same thing with Jesus' commands. He knew that he was asking us to behave in a way which would be very contrary to all our understanding of how the worldly system works. He knew his teachings would challenge our fears and our greed. He knew we will find ways to hesitate. He knew we will struggle with some aspects of his radical new lifestyle. That is why he gave commands. He knows better than we do. That is why we should obey.
the essence of what is missing in all that is any recognition of the Lord Jesus as he is-Our risen again,living redeemer ,who walks and talks with us.

i have come to know in him and perceive what i do because he has spoken into my life.. my entire present ,though vastly limited understanding ,all came from the lord giving me understanding.
i asked the lord years ago about these things and he told me..his commands are ,to each individual ,what he is telling us in our heart where,by his Holy spirit,he dwells.
we can do a thousand good works but if we do not listen to his Voicethey are self righteousness. nothing more.
and if we don't hear his voice we are not his.

tell us, how did the lord Jesus tell you personally to sell all etc and how have you applied these things by his power?
or are you listening to dave mckay rather then the Lord Jesus...
 
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Aldebaran

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the essence of what is missing in all that is any recognition of the Lord Jesus as he is-Our risen again,living redeemer ,who walks and talks with us.

i have come to know in him and perceive what i do because he has spoken into my life.. my entire present ,though vastly limited understanding ,all came from the lord giving me understanding.
i asked the lord years ago about these things and he told me..his commands are ,to each individual ,what he is telling us in our heart where,by his Holy spirit,he dwells.
we can do a thousand good works but if we do not listen to his Voicethey are self righteousness. nothing more.
and if we don't hear his voice we are not his.

tell us, how did the lord Jesus tell you personally to sell all etc and how have you applied these things by his power?
or are you listening to dave mckay rather then the Lord Jesus...

This is something I pointed out in another thread titled, "The Impossible Ethic". I pointed out:

“But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,” Titus 3:4–5

If Christ has saved us, then why am I supposed to give up everything I have, no longer have a job, and live in a commune with other Christians along with the problems that come from that? Am I completing what Jesus didn't complete? Am I making myself better for God? Exactly how much good works do I have to perform in addition to Jesus taking my sin upon Himself before I become acceptable to God and am deserving of eternal life in Heaven?

I know that if I were to give up everything, and do what is being suggested, I'd feel pretty self-righteous about it, as if I am now making myself good enough for God to allow me into Heaven, and I'm sure I'd be eager to point out to Him all the things I did for Him when I face Him after death. Do you think He'll respond by saying, "Well done good and faithful servant, you did enough to make me happy?"

Also, I believe Jesus is more than His teachings. He is much more than that.

I realize you find comfort in the idea that, "we will always be his children" but that simply isn't true.

When we accept the gift Christ gave us by way of the cross, we become fellows heirs of Christ. Romans 8:14-17--

"14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.


No, of course God is not dependent on us. But why would he want to spend eternity with someone who constantly argues with him or baulks at his instructions? I don't understand why you can't see such a simple lesson.

It's not that simple of a lesson. The things you are advocating are not what I see anyone else doing. In fact, if I were to travel the world looking for people who live the way you are advocating, I might be able to find about 27 people who are doing it. Do you think they are the only ones who will make it to Heaven? It's not that way according to what I read in Revelation 7:9-10

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
 
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