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Fermented wine or grape juice?

Discussion in 'Progressive/Moderate Adventists' started by maco, Jun 1, 2007.

  1. maco

    maco New Member

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    Here is what the SDA would have you to believe with their translation of the Bible. Everywhere wine is spoken of they put grape juice. You tell me if grape juice fits the context of these verses.

    John 2:10 And he said to him, "Every man at the beginning sets out the good grape juice, and when the guests have well drunk, then that which is inferior; but you have kept the good grape juice until now.''

    Luke 7:33-34 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking grape juice; and ye say, He hath a devil.The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a grapejuicebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

    1 Timothy 3:2-3 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to grape juice, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

    1 Timothy 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much grape juice, not greedy of filthy lucre;

    Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much grape juice, teachers of good things;

    1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little grape juice for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

    Psalms 104:15 And grape juice that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.
     
  2. CwazyfoGod

    CwazyfoGod New Member

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    :) LOL!!! Yes it is true. We Seventh-Day Adventists like to think of it as grape juice. I've been in church and heard 'grape juice' substituted for wine like crazy! I think that since Jesus drank wine.... I'm not sure if he drank the real wine or not (doubt it) but that may be the reason.
     
  3. Sophia7

    Sophia7 Tall73's Wife Supporter

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    I don't think people in Bible times made that much of a distinction between unfermented grape juice and fermented wine. However, the Israelites were even directed to consume fermented wine during some of their religious ceremonies, with the blessing of God:
    DT 14:22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.
    Only Nazirites were prohibited from drinking any wine at all, and their restrictions included grape juice, grapes, grape skins, raisins, etc.--any part of what grew on a grapevine (Numbers 6:2-4).

    I also think that Jesus probably did drink real wine; otherwise, the Pharisees' accusations about His eating and drinking wouldn't have made any sense in the context (Matthew 11:18-19; Luke 7:33-34).
     
  4. maco

    maco New Member

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    Sophia7

    Well praise the Lord for your insight...:thumbsup:

    We need more people who are willing to let the Bible speak for itself.

    Many blessings,
    John
     
  5. maco

    maco New Member

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    Let me shed a little more light on the subject.

    What makes fermented wine such a blessing from just plain old grape juice is its ablility to make the heart merry, in other words, get a buzz going.

    Psalms 104:15 And wine that makes glad the heart of man, Oil to make his face shine, And bread which strengthens man's heart.

    Fermented wine can ease the pain of death and lift a heavy heart.

    Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

    Oh don't get me wrong, God does not what His priest to drink while on duty.

    Ezekiel 44:21 "No priest shall drink wine when he enters the inner court.

    Lev.10:8-9 Then the Lord spoke to Aaron, saying: "Do not drink wine or intoxicating drink, you, nor your sons with you, when you go into the tabernacle of meeting, lest you die.

    This tells me that they coud drink wine if they were not in the tabernacle.

    Oh yah, what about the Nazirite. He too was not allowed to drink while on duty but aferwards its was okay to have a cold Bud after a long day at the office, Bud light of course.

    Numbers 6:1-5 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: `When either a man or woman consecrates an offering to take the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord,`he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink; he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink; neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins.`All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, from seed to skin.`All the days of the vow of his separation no razor shall come upon his head; until the days are fulfilled for which he separated himself to the Lord, he shall be holy.

    Numbers 6:20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the Lord: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine.

    What a blessing femented wine can be for thoes who know the truth. But for those who don't know the truth God tells us to treat them as weaker brothers and sisters.

    Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

    Many blessings,
    John
     
  6. RC_NewProtestants

    RC_NewProtestants Senior Veteran

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    What is amazing is that this is still debated in the SDA church. How much grape juice you would have to drink to get drunk?

    (1 Cor 11:20-22 NIV) When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk.
    Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!
     
  7. maco

    maco New Member

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    Hi RC_NewProtestants,

    Thanks for your reply.

    The problem we face with the plain verse you quoted is that it has been taught that these people came to the supper drunk already. This is a perfect example of Scripture manipulation to make it fit our beliefs. If we can just let the Bible speak for itself the truth would make us free...

    Many blessings,
    John vbmenu_register("postmenu_35409039", true);
     
  8. Loveaboveall

    Loveaboveall Senior Member

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    Maco,

    Just don't forget what I posted in the other thread about selfishness.
     
  9. maco

    maco New Member

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    Selfishness is when you don't obey Romans 14:21.

    Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

    We as mature Christians, who know the truth, should not eat meat or drink fermented wine in front of a weaker brother. A weaker brother is one who believes drinking fermented wine or eating meat is sinful.

    Many blessings,
    John
     
  10. maco

    maco New Member

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    One step further, I hope this helps.

    1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by them who believe and know the truth.

    God clearly tells His people not to follow the doctrines and commandments of men. There are some who say eating meat is forbidden but from the above verse this is a commandment of men. According to the above verse it’s those who believe and know the truth that understand that eating meat is not sinful.

    Now take this thought over to Romans 14:21.

    Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing by which thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

    Here God has place meat and fermented wine in the same category. He goes on to say that there are people in the world who are following the doctrines and commandments of men because they believe eating meat is sinful. God’s calls them a weaker brother but for us who know and believe the truth meat and fermented wine is not sinful.
     
  11. Loveaboveall

    Loveaboveall Senior Member

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    You are correct that it would be selfishness towards other believers, but you still missed the point!

    When you put something into your body that impairs your ability to communicate with God and is harmful to your body, you are demonstrating selfishness towards GOD! He specifically commands us to glorfiy HIM with our bodies. How is this possible when we are knowingly putting harmful things in it, and on top of that things that impairs our ability to communicated with God which is directly related to lowered inhibitions. It is interesting that impaired brain function diminishes the effect of the Holy Spirit isn't it? You could even take it a step farther a say that EXCESSIVE drinking is, in effect, blaspheming the Holy Spirit! (at least until the effects wear off)
     
  12. maco

    maco New Member

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    I know I'm probably wasting my time with this but who knows maybe someone here has ears to hear.

    1 Tim 3:1-31 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

    Some people take the first part of this verse and point the word sober to try and make their point that drinking fermented wine is sinful. If you notice in the context of the verse it also says do not be given to much wine. This tells me that the KJ word sober is misleading. The KJV used the word sober but the word in the original is sophron which means sensible.

    Lets see how another translation puts it.

    1 Timothy 3:2 Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher, no drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and no lover of money.

    You can say that wine causes harm to the body but this still does not negate the fact that God allow His people to drink fermented wine. This must mean that your understanding of harm to the body is not the same as God's.

    Drinking one or two glasses of wine does not constitute drunkenness. Maybe two or three you might get a merry heart which is still allowed by God.
     
  13. StormyOne

    StormyOne Senior Veteran

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    I have always believed that when the person wrote "wine" he (or she) knew the difference between wine and grape juice... then you have the sticky texts in Deut 14 which most are hard pressed to explain...
     
  14. Loveaboveall

    Loveaboveall Senior Member

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    Maco,

    Just out of curisosity, do you believe it is wrong for a christian to partake of cocaine (of course only on a recreational basis, not to the point of addiction)?

    Or lets use something more accepted in society: Nicotine. Is it a sin to smoke or chew tobbaco according to the Bible?
     
  15. CwazyfoGod

    CwazyfoGod New Member

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    another point to consider. Achohal was definetly used in the Bible. But on passover and many other occasions grape juice was most definently used because yeast is used in the fermentation process and jews were very careful about yeast. And really the only time Jesus drank, grape juice/alchohal (or whatever) is on these holidays.

    And to answer your question Loveaboveall. OF COURSE IT'S NOT!!!! God told us that our bodies were HIS temple, not to play around with however we chose. Plus that stuff KILLS you!!!

    Off of subject. Whats the health meter thingy???
     
  16. maco

    maco New Member

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    There are many sinful things in this world that are not mentioned in the Bible such as cocaine use. We know that the law says cocaine use is illegal and according to Bible we have to abey the law. The reason why cocaine is illegal is because of it's power of addiction. We also know that even a small amount of cocaine will bring you to the point of intoxication equal to drukenness and drunkeness is a sin. Knowing all this the Bible says this, James 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. Being addicted to anything, including nicotine, can cause problems. But as far as smoking a ciggarette or chewing tabbaco that is between God and the one doing it. There are many people who live to be a hundred who smoke. God would have to be the one who brings the conviction, not us.

    Now fermented wine on the other hand, God tells us we can partake of it with His blessing.

    There are alot of things in this world that the Bible does not give us specific instruction such as medical marijuana use. The law of the land says no but things are begining to change. These things we have to let the conscience be our guide through the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

    How do you feel about birth control?

    Many blessings,
    John
     
    karen freeinchristman likes this.
  17. Loveaboveall

    Loveaboveall Senior Member

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    What if, and all I have heard is speculation so I am not sure, the fermented wine of bible days was far different then the alcohol of today. Would it then still be applicable or would it fall under what you said regarding nicotine.

    I agree that each person must be convicted. But, when you are shown the truth regarding something being harmful to you and you still do it because you like it even though God commands us to glorify Him with our bodies-- I don't see how you get around that.

    By the way, why do you think that alcohol is not illegal? Many have already given the statistics regarding its ill effects on society! Could it be about money? Society would not allow it because so many people like it? In my opinion if you outlaw other addictive drugs alcohol and tobacco should be also. Tobaccco is more addictive than heroin.

    Birth control, I assume you mean the pills and their harmful effects. My wife does not take them and I would advise any woman to find a different method of contraception. The risks are to great with the diet that just about everyone follows these days, strokes are bound to happen! I have known of several girls now just in my area that have died of stroke in there 20s and 30s in just the past 10 yrs. Most likely birth control played a significant part in this.

    "Thou shalt not kill" Does this mean suicide also? and does suicide have to be instantaneous or can it be slow?
     
  18. JonMiller

    JonMiller Senior Veteran

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    I really don't see how anyone can get around the Bible not saying alcohol is a sin. It never even says never have any. The Bible doesn't saying being fat is a sin, nor does it say being sick is a sin (despite EGW).

    While I agree that alcohol often causes problems, as does being fat, or being sick, this doesn't mean they are defacto sins.

    The Bible clearly says what are sins. These we should not do, and are (based?) on the 10 commandments. The Bible also talks a lot more about living our life better. This gives us more what we should do more rather than what we shouldn't do. (it does say we shouldn't be drunk) These things are more about having a more blest life, rather then about what is sin or not.

    I agree, alcohol isn't really needed. But if you take out everything in your life that isn't needed.. you are going to break. Or you are an angel, in which case I am glad you are here, but shouldn't you be helping the world with some of the bigger problems (murders, rapes, hatred, depression, etc) rather then someone having an occasional drink?

    JM
     
  19. Loveaboveall

    Loveaboveall Senior Member

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    Hmmm... Isn't this how Jesus lived? Should we not strive to live as Jesus. He commands us to "deny" ourselves, meaning give up what you want. Many people have said the same thing when they find out I am a vegetarian, don't smoke/drink, abstain from coffee, etc. They say, "everyone needs a vice". This seems to be close to the same thing you are saying is it not? Jesus commands us to give up ALL of our "vices" and make Him all and all in our lives. He is ALL a person needs!

    You are right, There are "bigger fish to fry" so to speak. But it isn't only the specific act of drinking alcohol/poison but also the reason you do it. It is for pure pleasure which goes back to SELFISHness. This is the root of the problem. To pacify your "vices" is only to make the problem worse not better.
     
  20. JonMiller

    JonMiller Senior Veteran

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    Actually, Jesus was described as eating and drinking. He definitely didn't live a monkish existence. Now John the Baptist did (and was contrasted with Jesus in the NT).

    I never said that everyone needs a vice.

    And have you given all your posessions to the poor? Do you abstain from all sugars, white bread, etc? Do you never overeat? Do you own just a small amount of clothes (and cheap ones at that)? Do you spend every moment spreading Christ's word or helping the sick and poor?

    We don't live perfect lives, not a one of us. We aren't being called to be perfect while here on earth. We are being called to spread the message of Christ on this earth, and to spread God's love by helping the poor and sick. Since we seek to follow Christ, we keep his commandments, and don't kill or steal (or hate or lust).

    JM