MJ Only Fences of Protection - Guarding the Torah

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Appoint judges and officials for each of your tribes in every town the LORD your God is giving you, and they shall judge the people fairly. Deut. 16:18

Exactly. Who appointed them? The people in each city picked their own.
There was no judge class, as there was a priesthood (Levites). No rabbis
or taught ones.
 
Upvote 0

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
So in essence you are agreeing that in part MJ's that are more Karaite-like are hindering the restoration of Judah and Israel?

Not quite the group I was looking at. Restoration must be based
on truth and Torah only. Rabbinic and church theology have to go
because they are neither.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
I think Pat sees through a Protestant lens, and assumes RJ is, theoretically and practically, like medieval Catholicism.

Then you don't understand Pat. Catholicism is the same,
except reversed version of Rabbinic theology. One added
laws, the other changed them. Both abandoned God's commands
for their new theologies.

Protestants began the move away from the harlot RCC, but stopped
with their foot still in the door. They still teach 90% of the Catholic
doctrine, from Sunday worship to the law was abolished.
 
  • Like
Reactions: visionary
Upvote 0

Hoshiyya

Spenglerian
Mar 5, 2013
5,285
1,022
✟24,676.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Then you don't understand Pat. Catholicism is the same,
except reversed version of Rabbinic theology. One added
laws, the other changed them. Both abandoned God's commands
for their new theologies.

Protestants began the move away from the harlot RCC, but stopped
with their foot still in the door. They still teach 90% of the Catholic
doctrine, from Sunday worship to the law was abolished.

I was talking specifically in the context of obedience to authority, not relative to their specific laws/praxes.
 
Upvote 0

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
I was talking specifically in the context of obedience to authority, not relative to their specific laws/praxes.

I have no problem with authority as long as the basis
for that authority is legal, or in this case, biblical. Not
every so-called spiritual leader was chosen by Yahweh.
And not every religious system is of him; even those
claiming to be his.
 
Upvote 0

Hoshiyya

Spenglerian
Mar 5, 2013
5,285
1,022
✟24,676.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
I have no problem with authority as long as the basis
for that authority is legal, or in this case, biblical. Not
every so-called spiritual leader was chosen by Yahweh.
And not every religious system is of him; even those
claiming to be his.

I agree. However it appears my characterization is accurate, in that you see RJ and Catholicism as having unbiblical leadership models, and that these are comparable in that regard.

You're the individual against the system, and so am I, but my thoughts and words on RJ are expressed in a different way, as I have not inherited the Catholic-Protestant animosity against Judaism, which animosity is not only directed to unacceptable tradition, or to acceptable tradition, but to things absolutely necessary to put the Bible into practice. Without extra-Biblical knowledge it would be impossible to carry out so many commandments. How to do a marriage? a divorce? When does the month of Elul begin and end? When does a day begin and end?

Fundamental matters like these are left unclear in the written Torah.
 
Upvote 0

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
You're the individual against the system, and so am I, but my thoughts and words on RJ are expressed in a different way, as I have not inherited the Catholic-Protestant animosity against Judaism, which animosity is not only directed to unacceptable tradition, or to acceptable tradition, but to things absolutely necessary to put the Bible into practice. Without extra-Biblical knowledge it would be impossible to carry out so many commandments. How to do a marriage? a divorce? When does the month of Elul begin and end? When does a day begin and end?

Fundamental matters like these are left unclear in the written Torah.

I have as much against the churches as against RJ, but the way this forum
goes, the topic is not as commonly brought up.

As I said in my reply to Lulav, Yahweh's word is perfect, as it was written.
Marriage and divorce are not biblical matters, but civil. He gave us judges
and priests to determine most matters. In many matters, I think he left
them vague in order to allow individuality in keeping them.

If the Rabbis did not come down in an unbroken chain from Moses (and they
did not), then they have NO basis for their claim to spiritual or civil authority.
Yeshua did not challenge them on that because he was not here to correct
society, but to save the lost. When he sets up his kingdom, everything will
be restored to how it should have been.
 
Upvote 0

yonah_mishael

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם
Jun 14, 2009
5,370
1,325
Tel Aviv, Israel
Visit site
✟27,173.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Not quite the group I was looking at. Restoration must be based
on truth and Torah only. Rabbinic and church theology have to go
because they are neither.
And how do you convince someone else of what "truth" is? When people cannot agree on the basic tenets of "truth," you cannot achieve unity - unless you force people to accept "truth," in which case you are just like the Catholics of the Medieval times.
 
Upvote 0

yonah_mishael

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם
Jun 14, 2009
5,370
1,325
Tel Aviv, Israel
Visit site
✟27,173.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I have no problem with authority as long as the basis
for that authority is legal, or in this case, biblical. Not
every so-called spiritual leader was chosen by Yahweh.
And not every religious system is of him; even those
claiming to be his.
In that case, there is no religious authority today at all.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

yonah_mishael

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם
Jun 14, 2009
5,370
1,325
Tel Aviv, Israel
Visit site
✟27,173.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I have as much against the churches as against RJ, but the way this forum
goes, the topic is not as commonly brought up.

As I said in my reply to Lulav, Yahweh's word is perfect, as it was written.
Marriage and divorce are not biblical matters, but civil. He gave us judges
and priests to determine most matters. In many matters, I think he left
them vague in order to allow individuality in keeping them.

If the Rabbis did not come down in an unbroken chain from Moses (and they
did not), then they have NO basis for their claim to spiritual or civil authority.
Yeshua did not challenge them on that because he was not here to correct
society, but to save the lost. When he sets up his kingdom, everything will
be restored to how it should have been.

You seem like a religious anarchist to me. There is no authority. No one can tell you what to do. Etc. This is spiritually unhealthy.
 
Upvote 0

Hoshiyya

Spenglerian
Mar 5, 2013
5,285
1,022
✟24,676.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
You seem like a religious anarchist to me. There is no authority. No one can tell you what to do. Etc. This is spiritually unhealthy.

Do you believe there is a spirit, that can be healthy/unhealthy ?

If he was following tradition, you'd criticize that too. The issue for me is the invocation of Catholic-Protestant cliches against Judaism, and the fact that it is literally impossible to keep many of the laws, especially calendrical laws, without tradition.
 
Upvote 0

Hoshiyya

Spenglerian
Mar 5, 2013
5,285
1,022
✟24,676.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
If the Rabbis did not come down in an unbroken chain from Moses (and they
did not), then they have NO basis for their claim to spiritual or civil authority.

That is actually not so.

God said to establish judges and put fences around the Torah, as the Rabbis have done, regardless of when they arose. Yeshua, acting in the capacity of Rabbi, did the same.
 
Upvote 0

yonah_mishael

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם
Jun 14, 2009
5,370
1,325
Tel Aviv, Israel
Visit site
✟27,173.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Do you believe there is a spirit, that can be healthy/unhealthy ?

If he was following tradition, you'd criticize that too. The issue for me is the invocation of Catholic-Protestant cliches against Judaism, and the fact that it is literally impossible to keep many of the laws, especially calendrical laws, without tradition.
I believe there is a mind that can be healthy/unhealthy. I don't believe that there are ghosts inside our bodies. Only a structure for memory storage - the brain - and chemicals that are triggered within it, which cause our individual temperaments and personalities. If the chemical combination changes, so does our personality and temperament. If the electricity stops, so does our thinking. When the storage structure deteriorates, our memories are erased. When the brain is dead, so are we.
 
Upvote 0

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
And how do you convince someone else of what "truth" is? When people cannot agree on the basic tenets of "truth," you cannot achieve unity - unless you force people to accept "truth," in which case you are just like the Catholics of the Medieval times.

Truth is truth. You either accept it or you don't, in which
case you are lost. Yeshua will only accept those who are
his, so there will be no false followers and teachers.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
That is actually not so.

God said to establish judges and put fences around the Torah, as the Rabbis have done, regardless of when they arose. Yeshua, acting in the capacity of Rabbi, did the same.

WRONG. The Talmud is the only place you find the command to
make fences. If you think Yeshua added to Torah, then denounce
him as a false Messiah. That is the law.
 
Upvote 0

Lulav

Y'shua is His Name
Aug 24, 2007
34,141
7,243
✟494,938.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
WRONG. The Talmud is the only place you find the command to
make fences. If you think Yeshua added to Torah, then denounce
him as a false Messiah. That is the law.
Pat I'd like to invite you to re-read the OP, it seems that by your replies that you just glossed over it or maybe didn't read it at all, only the title?

This is part refutes exactly what you have been saying. Can you take a moment to read it without your customary proclivity to disparage?


Here is a bit of it, but I would like for all participating to read from the link I provided to get a fullness of what the OP is all about.

Numerous times the Torah says to the Rabbinic leadership [Moses, Aaron, the Elders, Johsua, Kelev, Etamar, the Judges, the Prophets, etc.] to keep and guard that very selfsame Torah [i.e. Ex. 20:2, Lev. 29:3, Deut.17, Deut. 5:8].

The Torah injunction to the Guardians of the Torah, is depicted by the pictorial representation of the very letters of the Biblical word 'Shomer' (Guard). It represents a picture of a simple handmade corral or fence - a field fence made of inter connected branches, sticks, thorns and thistles. Our Torah leadership are comparable to Shepherds who need to fence in their beloved sheep, ‘from fear in the [dangerous] night' [Song of Songs 3:7 -8]. Thus the very concrete, physical black ink of the shape of the letters cry out for our leadership to protect and tangibly guard the Torah. That’s not adding, that’s just protecting.

Rabbinic leadership owns itself the Divinely mandated right to guard the Torah - not to add to or detract from it, No Rabbi anywhere calls such a protective measure (directive, hedge or fence), a Torah law. They are merely placing a hedge of roses around to save the Torah laws from being carelessly trampled. Thus it is a Biblical directive to make fences around the Torah Law values.​
 
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,917
8,033
✟572,538.44
Faith
Messianic
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Lulav
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

roamer_1

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
738
337
Northwest Montana, USA
✟23,570.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Hello everyone. New here, and don't know if I am speaking out of turn... Apologies if I am.

I have as much against the churches as against RJ, but the way this forum goes, the topic is not as commonly brought up.

I am probably very close to you in this regard.

Yahweh's word is perfect, as it was written. Marriage and divorce are not biblical matters, but civil.

This grabbed me, as it is one of the things that stands against me in my similar view to yours...

Studying the wedding rites of the ancient Hebrews is a profound thing - I really don't know of a more beautiful defense for the way Yeshua loves his Bride, how he is technically preparing for her, and evidencing the the Rapture too. Simply stunning information, that explains much... The covenant we are under is a ketubah, and there is no definition found for the contract within Torah... Yet Yeshua is keeping a ketubah contract perfectly.

The same with the cups of Pesach, and what they mean... The blessing over the bread and the blessing over the wine... All of these things cannot be defined in Torah, but the prophetic messages found within them are astounding. Purim and Hanukkah too - absent as festivals, yet Yeshua kept them both.

In that, and in these, I find necessity in tradition. Where that line should be is the argument, I suppose - but one cannot escape it's validity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hoshiyya
Upvote 0