Fellow Christians, please help me understand why people choose evil?

[itdepends]

The dividing line between believers and all others is this: Who is their willer and doer? If it is man's separated from God's will it cannot love. Since God will not submit His sovereign will then the believer must be willed by and doing the will of love, hence "grace". So the two outcomes also, one brings death and the other brings life.

But what about when man offers what *his* will desires and God considers it and acts in response ?

 

[Ecclectic79]

Hmm ... I'd have to think about that one. I agree that they are aimed at apotheosis, but I would have to think on more of what the foundational difference between them is. If I had to narrow it down to one main difference, I don't know that apotheosis is it.

There is something to be said for the idea of sacrificing your life for another person, and doing so knowing that perhaps that other person will never repay you, or even make good use of the sacrifice. In fact, they might blame you, hate you, and toss the gift in the gutter .... but you love them anyway and still make the sacrifice. I see this love and sacrifice in Christ ... but I also see attempts to achieve this same ideal in forms of Luciferianism and humanism, loosely. So I would consider that the "difference" between all of them and Christ is somewhere in what separates out the humanist performing the same sacrifice, from Christ who performs it.

I think that kind of doubles to highlight where I was going - apotheosis bypasses Christ. Demons could tell 99.5% truth (believe me - reading Seth was incredibly informative) and have denial of Christ's divinity as their only lie; that's all they'd need to accomplish their objectives.

 

[itdepends]

I think that kind of doubles to highlight where I was going - apotheosis bypasses Christ.

Or tries to substitute/replace. I.e. "antiChrist". Or another Christ. And I don't think the average believer realizes how easy it is to fall into this trap. Even the "I follow Paul," "I follow Apollo", "I follow Cephas", etc. ...

Demons could tell 99.5% truth (believe me - reading Seth was incredibly informative) and have denial of Christ's divinity as their only lie; that's all they'd need to accomplish their objectives.

I agree, fallen spirits can be very truthful, even seem loving, beneficial, etc ... however I wouldn't say that denying Christ needs to be their lie. In my own experience, it isn't the recognizing of Christ's Lordship/etc that reveals the fallen spirit: it's their reaction to the Spirit of Christ that reveals them. So to accomplish their objective, at least imo ... it's not about whether they lie concerning Christ. They can tell truth and even admit that Jesus is Lord. It's more about their own response to the actual spirit of Christ.

 

[Ecclectic79]

I agree, fallen spirits can be very truthful, even seem loving, beneficial, etc ... however I wouldn't say that denying Christ needs to be their lie. In my own experience, it isn't the recognizing of Christ's Lordship/etc that reveals the fallen spirit: it's their reaction to the Spirit of Christ that reveals them. So to accomplish their objective, at least imo ... it's not about whether they lie concerning Christ. They can tell truth and even admit that Jesus is Lord. It's more about their own response to the actual spirit of Christ.

There was a particular.... err.....familiar spirit named John via Nan O'Brien who loudly exclaims that Jesus is Lord quite often. To add that to NDE's where people meet a God and even a seeming Jesus who are much closer to a new age image than what's stated constantly in other ways.

I think that goes to tell us just how irate God is right now with the state of the world to allow such levels of imitation.

 

[itdepends]

There was a particular.... err.....familiar spirit named John via Nan O'Brien who loudly exclaims that Jesus is Lord quite often. To add that to NDE's where people meet a God and even a seeming Jesus who are much closer to a new age image than what's stated constantly in other ways.

I think that goes to tell us just how irate God is right now with the state of the world to allow such levels of imitation.

It's called a powerful delusion for a reason unfortunately ...

 

[Ecclectic79]

Its said that the delusion will be so strong that even the elect will be deceived.

I think I've figured out the difference though between those who delusion is meant for and the elect - the elect will at least do their homework, keep doing their homework, and not call it an end point. What helped me was doing things like reading the St. Germain Green Books (the entity who I was told was very interested in teaching me the ropes), finding out about Guy and Edna Ballard of the I AM Activity, their supreme court fraud case, and then researching St. Germain to see how his reincarnational escapades through the history of famous alchemists and Masons unravel any possible redeeming character. Add to that the claim that he is supposedly hoarding the gold, silver, platinum, and other precious metals from the 'rich' - ie. once currency collapses those who will have thought that investing in commodities would save their finances will find their gold, platinum, and silver as valuable as their United States of Zimbabwe dollars - if the tale of the World Trust Fund holds any truth.

Similarly I had the chance to read a several hundred page book about Pleiadians/Plejarans, thinking they might be a veiled invasion of fallen angels, I was able to read Billy Meiers notes and see how fast his shabby story-telling destroys both them and his brazen insult to intelligence called the 'Talmud of Jmmanuel'. It got clear fast that Meier was a much less talented knock-off on L Ron Hubbard who similarly wanted to start a doctrinal cult. His real talent was rigging model UFO's, the fact that video researchers and fraud detectors had an incredibly hard time debunking his flying hubcaps for the lack of cables I think might have been less his enginuity and more the help of familiar spirits giving him ideas on how to baffle the experts.

In that sense I think anyone who's truly and constantly seeking truth will wriggle their way out of such traps so long as they never allow themselves to be ensconced in a social circle that would attempt to control them or keep them bound in it (like Scientology). At the same time though I worry that even such truth-seekers could run out of time if they were still in the middle of going through things and learning the ropes of the great deception at a time where their lives should be taken by events or where the final roll call cuts them off in the middle of such a moral or ontological trough.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

The answer will be the same when you ask yourself, "why do I choose evil?" and by "evil" I simply mean "sin". If we can answer honestly, why we sin, then we can pretty much understand why other's sin. We might not sin like everyone else and because some categorize sins as big sin or little sin, while God categorize them all the same, if we look inside ourselves, we can pretty much answer the question for the rest. I might not be a murderer but I'm a liar and to God, they are the same, neither will enter the Kingdom of God, but thanks be to Christ who died for our sins, whose blood washes away all our unrighteousness.

I know that doesn't really help your actual point but since many here tacked that, I figured I'd just throw my $0.02 in there.

 

[itdepends]

The answer will be the same when you ask yourself, "why do I choose evil?" and by "evil" I simply mean "sin". If we can answer honestly, why we sin, then we can pretty much understand why other's sin. We might not sin like everyone else and because some categorize sins as big sin or little sin, while God categorize them all the same, if we look inside ourselves, we can pretty much answer the question for the rest. I might not be a murderer but I'm a liar and to God, they are the same, neither will enter the Kingdom of God, but thanks be to Christ who died for our sins, whose blood washes away all our unrighteousness.

I know that doesn't really help your actual point but since many here tacked that, I figured I'd just throw my $0.02 in there.

^This.

I remember that moment I realized that even though I might not be a warlord maiming children, or doing things that ... if I caught another person doing them, I just might kill them out of "justice" ... the seed to commit those evils was within me, nonetheless. They might not ever grow the tree and produce that fruit, but the seed was there. Whether there was one fly in the soup or a hundred, it was still tainted soup. That's when I realized why even having an ill thought was the same as murder ... one was a seed, one was a fruit, but it was the same species of tree: sin.

That realization was terrifying, but it also made me realize how I couldn't judge others. I was not "righteous" lol.

 

[itdepends]

Its said that the delusion will be so strong that even the elect will be deceived.

I think I've figured out the difference though between those who delusion is meant for and the elect - the elect will at least do their homework, keep doing their homework, and not call it an end point. What helped me was doing things like reading the St. Germain Green Books (the entity who I was told was very interested in teaching me the ropes), finding out about Guy and Edna Ballard of the I AM Activity, their supreme court fraud case, and then researching St. Germain to see how his reincarnational escapades through the history of famous alchemists and Masons unravel any possible redeeming character. Add to that the claim that he is supposedly hoarding the gold, silver, platinum, and other precious metals from the 'rich' - ie. once currency collapses those who will have thought that investing in commodities would save their finances will find their gold, platinum, and silver as valuable as their United States of Zimbabwe dollars - if the tale of the World Trust Fund holds any truth.

Similarly I had the chance to read a several hundred page book about Pleiadians/Plejarans, thinking they might be a veiled invasion of fallen angels, I was able to read Billy Meiers notes and see how fast his shabby story-telling destroys both them and his brazen insult to intelligence called the 'Talmud of Jmmanuel'. It got clear fast that Meier was a much less talented knock-off on L Ron Hubbard who similarly wanted to start a doctrinal cult. His real talent was rigging model UFO's, the fact that video researchers and fraud detectors had an incredibly hard time debunking his flying hubcaps for the lack of cables I think might have been less his enginuity and more the help of familiar spirits giving him ideas on how to baffle the experts.

In that sense I think anyone who's truly and constantly seeking truth will wriggle their way out of such traps so long as they never allow themselves to be ensconced in a social circle that would attempt to control them or keep them bound in it (like Scientology). At the same time though I worry that even such truth-seekers could run out of time if they were still in the middle of going through things and learning the ropes of the great deception at a time where their lives should be taken by events or where the final roll call cuts them off in the middle of such a moral or ontological trough.

Hmm ....

I hope it doesn't come across like I'm arguing with you, or anyone else in the thread for that matter lol ... I've enjoyed this thread

But I might disagree with you about those who may fall for the delusion, verses those who may avoid the traps of it. I'm known otherkin, walk-ins, starseeds, indigos, Arcturians, Akashic record seekers, yada yada on down the road .... studied and read everything from the Urantia book, to Whitley Streiber, to the standard Stichin/Van Icke tomes, etc. I've heard the diatribes of fallen spirits about their origins and worlds.

I think the touchstone I've noticed that seems to help keep from sticking with the delusion and going no further, is rather simple: keep seeking the Kingdom, no matter. What.

If at any point you think you're not there, keep seeking. Are you personally walking around with Jesus physically ? Keep seeking. Have you met God face to face (I know what the Bible says) ? No ? Keep seeking. Are you standing in a Kingdom where there is no more death, suffering, etc ? Keep seeking. Have you died, seen everything burned down to the ground, and then been ressurrected and those things which withstood the burning remained for you to enjoy ? No ? Keep seeking. Are you content to assume, and presume, or do you want to *know* and *witness* what you believe ? If not, keep seeking.

Things that die and come back to life ... tend to be trustworthy. Whether it be a dream, a relationship, a love, a life, a belief. And I've noticed that fallen things don't often want to go into that fire ... the things of delusion. They don't want to be tested, tried, burned down to the ground ... because when they do, they won't come back. In this regard, you don't need to be a theologian or studied person to know the difference between the delusion and the truth ... you just need a seed of faith that you don't let stop growing, and a love that isn't afraid of death.

My $.01 lol

 

[daydreamergurl15]

^This.

I remember that moment I realized that even though I might not be a warlord maiming children, or doing things that ... if I caught another person doing them, I just might kill them out of "justice" ... the seed to commit those evils was within me, nonetheless. They might not ever grow the tree and produce that fruit, but the seed was there. Whether there was one fly in the soup or a hundred, it was still tainted soup. That's when I realized why even having an ill thought was the same as murder ... one was a seed, one was a fruit, but it was the same species of tree: sin.

That realization was terrifying, but it also made me realize how I couldn't judge others. I was not "righteous" lol.

It's amazing what one evil seed will do to you. And I think we're both thankful of that self-actualization and I'm so thankful for the patiences of a loving God.

 

[itdepends]

It's amazing what one evil seed will do to you. And I think we're both thankful of that self-actualization and I'm so thankful for the patiences of a loving God.

Yeah all it takes is that one seed

And yeah, I'm thankful for that self actualization also .... it was actually the turning point for me personally where I started to understand how God was a parent, and for the first time in my life, I had someone I could call Father. Before that, God was awesome, mystical, powerful, miraculous, fear worthy ... but that's when I realized I could actually be part of His family, and therefore, so could others ....

I think it's because realizing the nature of my sin, I realized I didn't need to compete with others to pass/fail. I could know God differently, because I was messed up, but I was loved.

 

[Ecclectic79]

No, that's a great reply as well. You're really just pointing out the caveat that the kind of research and homework matters. If someone's just detailing their current belief to detail their current belief but go no further it's not the whole deal - that also has to include 'is this even correct?' being continually asked and never truly abandoned.

 

[itdepends]

No, that's a great reply as well. You're really just pointing out the caveat that the kind of research and homework matters. If someone's just detailing their current belief to detail their current belief but go no further it's not the whole deal - that also has to include 'is this even correct?' being continually asked and never truly abandoned.

And I think one of the scariest things for people to do, is to actually abandon all that they think they may know or presume to know, in order to find out the answer to the question, "Is this even correct ?"

I think being willing to do that ... to drop what you may think is correct, in order to see what reality actually is ... helps to mark the dividing line between faith, and denial. In my experience, faith eventually is reflected as trustworthy because reality testifies on it's behalf. Denial doesn't allow reality to testify about anything lol.

 

[samcarternx]

But what about when man offers what *his* will desires and God considers it and acts in response ?

"His will"?? When my will and His will are different we are separate. In union His will is sovereign and my submission makes His will my will too, just the way I want it. lol

 

[itdepends]

"His will"?? When my will and His will are different we are separate. In union His will is sovereign and my submission makes His will my will too, just the way I want it. lol

What do you think about the situations in scripture where God was going to do a certain thing, but changed action based on input and/or desire from others ?

 

[samcarternx]

What do you think about the situations in scripture where God was going to do a certain thing, but changed action based on input and/or desire from others ?

He is love and is easily entreated.

 

[itdepends]

He is love and is easily entreated.

Well summarized

So, in my eyes, our will does matter, in the sense that it's not only about becoming possessed by God (so to speak) and performing His will, but also dynamically having input and a say. Even the chemistryman is considered, in that light. That's why I'm not set on chem-man having absolutely nothing but a bio program that is merely tolerated, or that God is simply waiting to turn chem-man into a Godbot. I'm not saying you were/are saying that ... I'm using my own figures of speech somewhat of course.

 

[samcarternx]

Well summarized

So, in my eyes, our will does matter, in the sense that it's not only about becoming possessed by God (so to speak) and performing His will, but also dynamically having input and a say. Even the chemistryman is considered, in that light. That's why I'm not set on chem-man having absolutely nothing but a bio program that is merely tolerated, or that God is simply waiting to turn chem-man into a Godbot. I'm not saying you were/are saying that ... I'm using my own figures of speech somewhat of course.

LOL i am saying that. Godbot is same as sock puppet, or avatar. this means my will no longer exists. It is now OUR will as I am now part of the team. All my behavior is an expression of His will(sovereign) doing me. He gets all the credit for my righteous and loving acts and I get the benefits of being His life form that does it.

 

[Silvanus1]

Growing up as an adolescent, I was one of those gullible and misinformed teens who thought that any person who was evil was therefore crazy as well. This is because we all know that nobody in their right mind would do or want to do evil. But I see now that sanity is a matter of being able to distinguish between reality and fantasy, not as a matter of deliberately choosing to do right or wrong--that's morality. And we also know that if someone wasn't twisted or sick, they would not do evil. And I'm not talking about being schizophrenic, delusional, or even paranoia for that matter, because we know that is not the case at all. I'm talking about people who know their actions are wrong but actually have the gall to do it anyway. No normal person would even think of doing what they do.

People say all the time that psychopaths/sociopaths know right from wrong and freely choose to do wrong, and yet they can't explain why they choose to do wrong. I don't understand their motives either. These people say this like they're perfectly normal people who don't have a trace of problems. But what I have trouble understanding is that these people really do choose to do wrong and that nothing or nobody forces them to do wrong. And the main reason I do (either because I may really have trouble understanding or because I refuse to face the simple and harsh fact) is simply because I would never think any human being would do or want to do something like that. It's just unbelievable. So I just automatically concluded that they are just crazy people with twisted morals. I didn't want to see they were people who choose to do wrong and for no good reason whatsoever cause pain onto others. I wanted to see evil as insanity and not evil as evil. I try to rationalize or twist things into how I wanted to see them.

So tell me, if these people know right from wrong, why do they do it anyway? I just do not understand.....

We were all born with a sinful nature that makes us capable of terrible things. However, we also have a conscience that, in it's normal state, would regulate our behavior and causes us to know right from wrong. Having said that the Bible clearly says that we can scar our conscience so that we are "past feeling" (Eph 4:19). If we keep doing things against our conscience, even just little things, we may lose the sense that what we do is wrong.

Now, what about the terrible things like mass school shootings? I would say those cases are a combination of what I just described and mental trauma which can be from anything (abusive parents, bullying, violent video games, etc). The human mind is not as strong as you might think and can be very much damaged to the point that the person can do terrible things without remorse. (There are also people who do terrible things out of desperation and are influenced by a combination of irrational and high emotional factors but who still realize the gravity of their errors after the emotion dies down and reason hits them like a brick wall.) For example, upon analysis researches found that the brain wave patterns of people who do unspeakable things are different from the "normal" person. Are they crazy? Not necessarily. But something is happening to their mind that we are not too clear about.

 

[Manford]

some sort of sensual gratification that muffles conscience