Fear of Hell and Faith

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I understand you. I too have feared and doubted a lot. But know that Christ died so that you might live with confidence, Peace and a good conscience. Know that he came to deliver you from guilt and fear, not in order to impose it upon you. Know that his message is not Only about the afterlife, but about this life as well. Believing otherwise is nihilistic. Know that he did not come to say that this life is a failure as many christians seem to think, but he came in order for us to embrace true life. That is one of the wonders of the incarnation, that many protestants refuse to understand, that Christ EMBRACED human life and showed us how true human life is like. And through his life, we can be transformed. Forgiveness is not the end of salvation, it is Only the beginning. And hell is just the consequence of saying no to God and yourself. It is a self-inflicted punishment. Hell does not exist from God's Point of view. God is subject and Free. Not object. Do you Think the essence of love wants you punished? It is just sadistic preachers like Jonathan Edwards who believes that. Hell is within man. It is non-being, the consequence of saying no to true being.

Thank you
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

How is it now that you explain fear as being good?

I'm not sure how you missed it. Let me show you again:

"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." (Luke 12:5)

These are Jesus' words, with His repetition for emphasis on the fear part. Clearly Jesus Himself thought it was fitting to motivate a sinner, if necessary, through fear of hell specifically. Jude repeats this in his admonishment:

"save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh." (Jude 1:23)

The word used in Luke 12:5 is phobeo, which means to be terrified; the word in Jude 1:23 is phobos, which means fear, terror or dread. We are actually instructed to use fear if necessary to highlight the absolute necessity of God's grace. Do you not understand the irony of preaching a message of grace and salvation and claiming to avoid messages of terror? There is no message of grace unless there is a consequence for which rescue from it constitutes grace. The reason we can preach about the glorious salvation of our Lord and Saviour is precisely because the alternative to Him was eternal separation from God, which produces eternal torment and contempt.

A message of salvation that excludes the prior state of damnation is just a polite and hopeful attempt to circumvent one's question of "saved from what?" I wonder sometimes if many Christians remember that God's provision of salvation of a provision of vicarious retribution? Isaiah 53:10 says that "it pleased the LORD to crush Him and cause Him to suffer [for our sins]..." The word there for pleased (chaphets) literally means to delight in. God delighted in crushing Him because at the cross He became sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21), and God delights in destroying sin. Jesus and His Father share the same incommensurable love, but also the same perfectly holy, just and righteous nature. That is precisely why Jesus urged us so strongly to fear His Father, because His love is abounding in passion to rescue us, but His righteousness will cast out into weeping and gnashing of teeth all who refuse the very source of goodness and truth themselves. God is the good; if you reject God, you will have nothing good, which constitutes your conscious state in hell.

"But unless you repent, you too will all perish (Luke 13:3)."
"The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire (Matthew 3:10)."
"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2)."
"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41)."
"Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers (Matthew 7:23)!"

Now certainly those who belong to Christ are not to live in fear of hell, and God has not given us a spirit of fear, but that doesn't mean we are not to fear when we find ourselves stumbling into sin. In fact, the one who has wisdom fears the LORD (Proverbs 9:10, Job 28:28), and the one who belong to Christ has the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the LORD (Isaiah 11:2). The reason we should find ourselves fearing is not because we do not understand the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice, but first of all because we have wisdom to understand the LORD still disciplines, and also because we ought to make our salvation sure. What does that mean? The Scriptures tell us to confirm that we have indeed received Christ sincerely, which is evidenced by our producing good fruit and fleeing from sin:

"Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble (2 Peter 1:10),"

"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear [phobos] and trembling (Philippians 2:12)..."

As those who belong to Christ we should have peace, joy, and soundness of mind. But we also ought to confirm that we belong to Christ through repentance, which, ironically, the Spirit of Christ will drive you to in confirming that. Don't forget that many will go to Him on that day and say, "Lord, Lord!" And He will reply He never knew them and they were workers of iniquity (Matthew 7:23) - it's an important point to remember.

The summarizing and reconciliating point is this: If we remain in Christ, He will remain in us (John 15:5); this is our fearless confidence in His promise. The fear rightly emerges when we begin to conduct ourselves in ways that do not remain in Him and fail to repent. Then the fear itself becomes evidence of the Holy Spirit's work in your life to rouse you towards repentance to Christ.
 
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RaymondG

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I'm not sure how you missed it. Let me show you again:

"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." (Luke 12:5)

These are Jesus' words, with His repetition for emphasis on the fear part. Clearly Jesus Himself thought it was fitting to motivate a sinner, if necessary, through fear of hell specifically. Jude repeats this in his admonishment:

"save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh." (Jude 1:23)

The word used in Luke 12:5 is phobeo, which means to be terrified; the word in Jude 1:23 is phobos, which means fear, terror or dread. We are actually instructed to use fear if necessary to highlight the absolute necessity of God's grace. Do you not understand the irony of preaching a message of grace and salvation and claiming to avoid messages of terror? There is no message of grace unless there is a consequence for which rescue from it constitutes grace. The reason we can preach about the glorious salvation of our Lord and Saviour is precisely because the alternative to Him was eternal separation from God, which produces eternal torment and contempt.

A message of salvation that excludes the prior state of damnation is just a polite and hopeful attempt to circumvent one's question of "saved from what?" I wonder sometimes if many Christians remember that God's provision of salvation of a provision of vicarious retribution? Isaiah 53:10 says that "it pleased the LORD to crush Him and cause Him to suffer [for our sins]..." The word there for pleased (chaphets) literally means to delight in. God delighted in crushing Him because at the cross He became sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21), and God delights in destroying sin. Jesus and His Father share the same incommensurable love, but also the same perfectly holy, just and righteous nature. That is precisely why Jesus urged us so strongly to fear His Father, because His love is abounding in passion to rescue us, but His righteousness will cast out into weeping and gnashing of teeth all who refuse the very source of goodness and truth themselves. God is the good; if you reject God, you will have nothing good, which constitutes your conscious state in hell.

"But unless you repent, you too will all perish (Luke 13:3)."
"The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire (Matthew 3:10)."
"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2)."
"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41)."
"Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers (Matthew 7:23)!"

Now certainly those who belong to Christ are not to live in fear of hell, and God has not given us a spirit of fear, but that doesn't mean we are not to fear when we find ourselves stumbling into sin. In fact, the one who has wisdom fears the LORD (Proverbs 9:10, Job 28:28), and the one who belong to Christ has the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the LORD (Isaiah 11:2). The reason we should find ourselves fearing is not because we do not understand the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice, but first of all because we have wisdom to understand the LORD still disciplines, and also because we ought to make our salvation sure. What does that mean? The Scriptures tell us to confirm that we have indeed received Christ sincerely, which is evidenced by our producing good fruit and fleeing from sin:

"Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble (2 Peter 1:10),"

"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear [phobos] and trembling (Philippians 2:12)..."

As those who belong to Christ we should have peace, joy, and soundness of mind. But we also ought to confirm that we belong to Christ through repentance, which, ironically, the Spirit of Christ will drive you to in confirming that. Don't forget that many will go to Him on that day and say, "Lord, Lord!" And He will reply He never knew them and they were workers of iniquity (Matthew 7:23) - it's an important point to remember.

The summarizing and reconciliating point is this: If we remain in Christ, He will remain in us (John 15:5); this is our fearless confidence in His promise. The fear rightly emerges when we begin to conduct ourselves in ways that do not remain in Him and fail to repent. Then the fear itself becomes evidence of the Holy Spirit's work in your life to rouse you towards repentance to Christ.

Good Luck to you on your journey to heaven.
 
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Kenny'sID

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For me, absolutely. If I could do anything I wanted and still get to Heaven, I'd do it...no doubt. For those that are, or act as if they are appalled with that attitude, God has always threatened us with Hell, and I still think it's what gets most, to come to God and keeps them hanging on, whether they admit it or not.

Sure, once most of us get in the door, things change, but that's what often times causes us to knock.

Hell is a God given incentive, and thankfully he cared enough to put it out there.
 
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Dr Bruce Atkinson

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I'm not sure how you missed it. Let me show you again:

"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." (Luke 12:5)

These are Jesus' words, with His repetition for emphasis on the fear part. Clearly Jesus Himself thought it was fitting to motivate a sinner, if necessary, through fear of hell specifically. Jude repeats this in his admonishment:

"save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh." (Jude 1:23)

The word used in Luke 12:5 is phobeo, which means to be terrified; the word in Jude 1:23 is phobos, which means fear, terror or dread. We are actually instructed to use fear if necessary to highlight the absolute necessity of God's grace. Do you not understand the irony of preaching a message of grace and salvation and claiming to avoid messages of terror? There is no message of grace unless there is a consequence for which rescue from it constitutes grace. The reason we can preach about the glorious salvation of our Lord and Saviour is precisely because the alternative to Him was eternal separation from God, which produces eternal torment and contempt.

A message of salvation that excludes the prior state of damnation is just a polite and hopeful attempt to circumvent one's question of "saved from what?" I wonder sometimes if many Christians remember that God's provision of salvation of a provision of vicarious retribution? Isaiah 53:10 says that "it pleased the LORD to crush Him and cause Him to suffer [for our sins]..." The word there for pleased (chaphets) literally means to delight in. God delighted in crushing Him because at the cross He became sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21), and God delights in destroying sin. Jesus and His Father share the same incommensurable love, but also the same perfectly holy, just and righteous nature. That is precisely why Jesus urged us so strongly to fear His Father, because His love is abounding in passion to rescue us, but His righteousness will cast out into weeping and gnashing of teeth all who refuse the very source of goodness and truth themselves. God is the good; if you reject God, you will have nothing good, which constitutes your conscious state in hell.

"But unless you repent, you too will all perish (Luke 13:3)."
"The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire (Matthew 3:10)."
"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2)."
"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41)."
"Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers (Matthew 7:23)!"

Now certainly those who belong to Christ are not to live in fear of hell, and God has not given us a spirit of fear, but that doesn't mean we are not to fear when we find ourselves stumbling into sin. In fact, the one who has wisdom fears the LORD (Proverbs 9:10, Job 28:28), and the one who belong to Christ has the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the LORD (Isaiah 11:2). The reason we should find ourselves fearing is not because we do not understand the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice, but first of all because we have wisdom to understand the LORD still disciplines, and also because we ought to make our salvation sure. What does that mean? The Scriptures tell us to confirm that we have indeed received Christ sincerely, which is evidenced by our producing good fruit and fleeing from sin:

"Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble (2 Peter 1:10),"

"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear [phobos] and trembling (Philippians 2:12)..."

As those who belong to Christ we should have peace, joy, and soundness of mind. But we also ought to confirm that we belong to Christ through repentance, which, ironically, the Spirit of Christ will drive you to in confirming that. Don't forget that many will go to Him on that day and say, "Lord, Lord!" And He will reply He never knew them and they were workers of iniquity (Matthew 7:23) - it's an important point to remember.

The summarizing and reconciliating point is this: If we remain in Christ, He will remain in us (John 15:5); this is our fearless confidence in His promise. The fear rightly emerges when we begin to conduct ourselves in ways that do not remain in Him and fail to repent. Then the fear itself becomes evidence of the Holy Spirit's work in your life to rouse you towards repentance to Christ.

Excellent, scripture-based response.

Fear of the Lord is only the beginning of wisdom. Its value is to bring us to God in repentance. Once we are solidly among the Elect, we lose that fear due to our complete trust in Him, and our love. Then our feeling is more like the ultimate form of respect and reverence that we have for God, but not fear in the sense of being afraid. We are, in fact, to be "anxious for nothing." (Phil 4:6)
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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Good Luck to you on your journey to heaven.

There is no luck, nor works; it is Christ that saves. I think what you are not understanding is that both of these Scriptures are (obviously) true, but in a different sense.

Allow me to simplify this as much as is possible. I sincerely want you to understand this because it is Scriptural and involves a proper understanding of our faith and evangelism:

Remaining in = No fear
*
If you remain in Christ, there is no fear; you have passed from death to life on account of Christ's ransom for your redemption (John 15:5).
*You remain in Christ by obeying His commands (John 15:10); not because works save you, but because this is the evidence you have sincerely received Christ and are thus saved (again, John 15:5; contrast with John 15:6)
*Christ's commands are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind, and to love your neighbour as yourself (Luke 10:27 - this must be on God's terms, not by our fickle definitions of love; God will not be mocked, Galatians 6:7)

(Notice this: there is a basic law of logic you were aware of before I am going to explicate it to you. This law is designated the "law of identity". This law says that A is A, or A is identical to A, or, A is identical to itself; it is what is is, in simple terms. So if you call Jesus your Lord and Saviour, this is only true if Jesus is, in fact, your Lord (you obey one who is truly your Lord) and Saviour (someone saves you if you did not save yourself). Thus, Jesus is your Lord and saviour if you live like He is both Lord and Saviour; it is not a question of your ability to produce the sentence that He is.)

Not remaining in = fear
*
One fears because the Spirit of God produces fear in the one who does not belong to or is not remaining in Christ; this is actually evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit in one's life when they stray into sin (John 16:8, Isaiah 11:2, Luke 12:5).
*One does not remain in Christ when they are not producing fruit (John 16:6); the evidence of their sanctification that results from salvation is lacking; fear results for the one whom the Holy Spirit warns.

Summarizing point: The believer both has absolute security in Christ, and fear when he has reason to doubt he is remaining in Him. Thus logically you will have certainty - in Christ. Do you understand the meaning of this?

Do not forget again that some will have professed the Lord and He will not have known them (Matthew 7:23). Some seed also fell along the shallow soil and the thorns (Matthew 13:5-6), and seemed to belong to Christ, but never truly did. Be sure, and warn others to be sure, that they are producing thirty, sixty, or a hundred times what was sown; "Produce fruit in keeping with repentance (Matthew 3:8)." When you do this, then you will have the fruit of peace, joy and soundness of mind that is in Christ (John 15:11).
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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For me, absolutely. If I could do anything I wanted and still get to Heaven, I'd do it...no doubt. For those that are, or act as if they are appalled with that attitude, God has always threatened us with Hell, and I still think it's what gets most, to come to God and keeps them hanging on, whether they admit it or not.

Sure, once most of us get in the door, things change, but that's what often times causes us to knock.

Hell is a God given incentive, and thankfully he cared enough to put it out there.

That is because we are evil (Matthew 7:11, Romans 3:12). Hell causes a wicked soul to respect God out of self-preservation. That respect lead to submission, which allows the Holy Spirit to work in our wicked hearts. The Holy Spirit's work produces fruit (Christ-likeness, in short) and consequently reveals to us the incommensurable joy that is attained through relation to God through His Son.

Fear is just the pregnant belly of wisdom and understanding, and when it gives birth, then is fear no longer necessary (1 John 4:18) since Christ becomes our righteousness.
 
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beebert

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It becomes more and more Clear to me how much the majority of Christians fail to represent Christ.It is Saints like Francis of Assisi, Seraphim of Sarov, John of the Cross and Starets Silouan that shows what christianity is all about - A way of life that shows the greatness of not Only God, but also of man. I stress on this once again: protestantism has so often failed to understand the incarnation. Calvin for one did not seem to understand it. And Luther saw the depravity of man but not the image of God. The failure to convert people to christianity has often been christian's fault, who has so often presented the Gospel as bad news. Does someone here sincerely suggest that the Gospel according Calvin for example is Good news? Too many Christians do not want a relationship with Christ, they Only want to not go to hell. Many wants his kingdom, but who wants to bear his cross?
 
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Dr Bruce Atkinson

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There is no luck, nor works; it is Christ that saves. I think what you are not understanding is that both of these Scriptures are (obviously) true, but in a different sense.

Allow me to simplify this as much as is possible. I sincerely want you to understand this because it is Scriptural and involves a proper understanding of our faith and evangelism:

Remaining in = No fear
*
If you remain in Christ, there is no fear; you have passed from death to life on account of Christ's ransom for your redemption (John 15:5).
*You remain in Christ by obeying His commands (John 15:10); not because works save you, but because this is the evidence you have sincerely received Christ and are thus saved (again, John 15:5; contrast with John 15:6)
*Christ's commands are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind, and to love your neighbour as yourself (Luke 10:27 - this must be on God's terms, not by our fickle definitions of love; God will not be mocked, Galatians 6:7)

(Notice this: there is a basic law of logic you were aware of before I am going to explicate it to you. This law is designated the "law of identity". This law says that A is A, or A is identical to A, or, A is identical to itself; it is what is is, in simple terms. So if you call Jesus your Lord and Saviour, this is only true if Jesus is, in fact, your Lord (you obey one who is truly your Lord) and Saviour (someone saves you if you did not save yourself). Thus, Jesus is your Lord and saviour if you live like He is both Lord and Saviour; it is not a question of your ability to produce the sentence that He is.)

Not remaining in = fear
*
One fears because the Spirit of God produces fear in the one who does not belong to or is not remaining in Christ; this is actually evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit in one's life when they stray into sin (John 16:8, Isaiah 11:2, Luke 12:5).
*One does not remain in Christ when they are not producing fruit (John 16:6); the evidence of their sanctification that results from salvation is lacking; fear results for the one whom the Holy Spirit warns.

Summarizing point: The believer both has absolute security in Christ, and fear when he has reason to doubt he is remaining in Him. Thus logically you will have certainty - in Christ. Do you understand the meaning of this?

Do not forget again that some will have professed the Lord and He will not have known them (Matthew 7:23). Some seed also fell along the shallow soil and the thorns (Matthew 13:5-6), and seemed to belong to Christ, but never truly did. Be sure, and warn others to be sure, that they are producing thirty, sixty, or a hundred times what was sown; "Produce fruit in keeping with repentance (Matthew 3:8)." When you do this, then you will have the fruit of peace, joy and soundness of mind that is in Christ (John 15:11).
Again, a good answer.

In multiple places in the Old Testament we hear that “fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,” and in Psalm 112, we hear “blessed are they who fear the Lord and find delight in His command.” I believe these words may comprise the highest wisdom possible prior to the coming of Jesus Christ. However, a person will sooner or later fail in their attempts to obey God out of fear. In Romans and other letters, the Apostle Paul taught about the purpose of the Law; the Law indeed may point out to us the difference between right and wrong, but our conscience already does that. The Law has a higher purpose: the presence of the Law reminds us of our utter inability to obey God’s commands in our own power.

The fear is associated with conviction of sin and is produced by the Holy Spirit (because at first we are all sinners headed for hell and therefore such fear is appropriate when we believe this truth).
The gracious purpose of this fear is to motivate repentance … leading to saving faith and to full trust in (and love for) Jesus Christ, which then, in turn, eliminates the fear. This is the “peace of God which passes all understanding” Paul wrote about in Philippians 4:7. As the hymn “Amazing Grace” puts it: “T’was grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved…”
 
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beebert

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Also, I would like to add one thing concerning calvinism. For one thing, Calvin was a sadistic murderer. And Another thing; I am not catholic and I know many here condemn catholicism. But they do it out of ignorant reasons. Evangelicalism and calvinism has not really produced any saints like Francis of Assisi, John of the Cross etc. That is enough for me to be convinced that I can not listen to millionairs like Macarthur and Piper rather than saints like the ones mentioned.
 
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Dr Bruce Atkinson

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Also, I would like to add one thing concerning calvinism. For one thing, Calvin was a sadistic murderer. And Another thing; I am not catholic and I know many here condemn catholicism. But they do it out of ignorant reasons. Evangelicalism and calvinism has not really produced any saints like Francis of Assisi, John of the Cross etc. That is enough for me to be convinced that I can not listen to millionairs like Macarthur and Piper rather than saints like the ones mentioned.

I am no Calvinist, but let's not re-write history here. “Sadistic murderer” is not close to the reality. We would call that slander today. Thousands in those days were killed by the Catholic Church (note the Spanish Inquisition) and also some by the Protestants where they were in power.
During an age where heretics were burned at the stake, Michael Servetus was an “anti-trinitarian campaigner” who refused to re-cant and thus met his heretical fate. He is the only person who Calvin has been accused of as having played any part in the execution (which was legal at that time and place).
In his essay “John Calvin and Reformed Europe,” professor J.I. Packer wrote: “Calvin, whose role in Servetus’ trial had been that of expert witness managing the prosecution, wanted Servetus not to die but to recant, and spent hours with him during and after the trial seeking to change his views. When Servetus was sentenced to be burned alive, Calvin asked for beheading as a less painful alternative, but his request was denied.” Hardly a "sadistic murderer."

Revising history falls under the sin of false witness. Either you are ignorant of the facts or are intentionally misrepresenting the truth just to make Calvin look bad. You are not the first Catholic or Arminian to attempt to do so.
 
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Dr Bruce Atkinson

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Also, I would like to add one thing concerning calvinism. For one thing, Calvin was a sadistic murderer. And Another thing; I am not catholic and I know many here condemn catholicism. But they do it out of ignorant reasons. Evangelicalism and calvinism has not really produced any saints like Francis of Assisi, John of the Cross etc. That is enough for me to be convinced that I can not listen to millionairs like Macarthur and Piper rather than saints like the ones mentioned.

Ok, so you dislike the Johns MacArthur and Piper. You are not evangelical, not Calvinist, not Catholic (but you like some of the Catholic Fathers). So what church do you support? Or are you superior to all Christian churches and Christian leaders?
 
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beebert

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I am no Calvinist, but let's not re-write history here. “Sadistic murderer” is not close to the reality. We would call that slander today. Thousands in those days were killed by the Catholic Church (note the Spanish Inquisition) and also some by the Protestants where they were in power.
During an age where heretics were burned at the stake, Michael Servetus was an “anti-trinitarian campaigner” who refused to re-cant and thus met his heretical fate. He is the only person who Calvin has been accused of as having played any part in the execution (which was legal at that time and place).
In his essay “John Calvin and Reformed Europe,” professor J.I. Packer wrote: “Calvin, whose role in Servetus’ trial had been that of expert witness managing the prosecution, wanted Servetus not to die but to recant, and spent hours with him during and after the trial seeking to change his views. When Servetus was sentenced to be burned alive, Calvin asked for beheading as a less painful alternative, but his request was denied.” Hardly a "sadistic murderer."

Revising history falls under the sin of false witness. Either you are ignorant of the facts or are intentionally misrepresenting the truth just to make Calvin look bad. You are not the first Catholic or Arminian to attempt to do so.
I am sorry, I might have come out a bit too hard. I just have some problems with calvinism, having seen the negative effect it has had to some People's lives. But I am sorry if I offended you. And you are right, I have not the right to judge. I am about to become an orthodox Christian. I apologize for my harsch comment. I just feared that the OP was another one who became a victim of the negative sides of calvinism, which can lead a man to despair, or in first case psychosis. But I have no right to judge and none of us actually know for sure what theology that is absolutely Correct. Therefore I tend to try and judge on the life of the believer, and I personally consider People like Francis of Assisi as I mentioned, being more Christ-like than Calvin for example...
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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Again, a good answer.

In multiple places in the Old Testament we hear that “fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,” and in Psalm 112, we hear “blessed are they who fear the Lord and find delight in His command.” I believe these words may comprise the highest wisdom possible prior to the coming of Jesus Christ. However, a person will sooner or later fail in their attempts to obey God out of fear. In Romans and other letters, the Apostle Paul taught about the purpose of the Law; the Law indeed may point out to us the difference between right and wrong, but our conscience already does that. The Law has a higher purpose: the presence of the Law reminds us of our utter inability to obey God’s commands in our own power.

The fear is associated with conviction of sin and is produced by the Holy Spirit (because at first we are all sinners headed for hell and therefore such fear is appropriate when we believe this truth).
The gracious purpose of this fear is to motivate repentance … leading to saving faith and to full trust in (and love for) Jesus Christ, which then, in turn, eliminates the fear. This is the “peace of God which passes all understanding” Paul wrote about in Philippians 4:7. As the hymn “Amazing Grace” puts it: “T’was grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved…”

Perfectly said. I like that lyric at the end as well; it is good to see Scriptural comprehension and soundness even in our church music (since for some, it is the most affective form of ministry).

In a few words, it is as simple as this:

Fear-->Repentance-->Peace

This order can be regressed as well, when one find themselves stumbling back into sin. First, they revert to the need for repentance. When repentance doesn't occur, then fear is the Spirit's work of bringing you back to peace through repentance again. It seems so utterly simple, I am not sure why any Christian opposes it since it is so clearly taught in the Scriptures. You can't take any one half of the whole without being blind-sided. If you only accept the verses about peace, you won't be able to encourage repentance through the warnings Jesus provided; if you only accept the warnings, you will never have peace and will become emotionally and spiritually worn.

Fear when you are not remaining in Christ, have full confidence when you are. It's that simple.

Edit: I should repeat that there is no Gospel without the message of fear, as the question will remain, "saved from what?" And if one believes Christ is their exclusive means to salvation, then theologically (and just plain logically) fear is the proper response to not remaining in Him, as you are not remaining in the means to your salvation. It's not a claim to loss of salvation, but to having never had it (again, remember the seeds among thorns and shallow soil; they accepted the message at one time too). Fruits are the evidence of genuine salvation, so fear is the product of not producing for one who has the Holy Spirit.
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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I am sorry, I might have come out a bit too hard. I just have some problems with calvinism, having seen the negative effect it has had to some People's lives. But I am sorry if I offended you. And you are right, I have not the right to judge. I am about to become an orthodox Christian. I apologize for my harsch comment. I just feared that the OP was another one who became a victim of the negative sides of calvinism, which can lead a man to despair, or in first case psychosis. But I have no right to judge and none of us actually know for sure what theology that is absolutely Correct. Therefore I tend to try and judge on the life of the believer, and I personally consider People like Francis of Assisi as I mentioned, being more Christ-like than Calvin for example...

Theologically, Calvinism is another example of a bent and blind-sided doctrine that produces a crippled message. It is the acceptance of God's providence with the rejection of human freedom, and both are shown to be concurrent in the Scriptures. This directs us to the middle-knowledge doctrine and inferences from God's nature about creation of the greatest possible world (this one) with free creatures, but I have written extensively about that elsewhere in this forum. It would be somewhat off topic, so if you want to refer to that, click here.
 
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Dr Bruce Atkinson

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I am sorry, I might have come out a bit too hard. I just have some problems with calvinism, having seen the negative effect it has had to some People's lives. But I am sorry if I offended you. And you are right, I have not the right to judge. I am about to become an orthodox Christian. I apologize for my harsch comment. I just feared that the OP was another one who became a victim of the negative sides of calvinism, which can lead a man to despair, or in first case psychosis. But I have no right to judge and none of us actually know for sure what theology that is absolutely Correct. Therefore I tend to try and judge on the life of the believer, and I personally consider People like Francis of Assisi as I mentioned, being more Christ-like than Calvin for example...

beebert,
I respect your openness and honesty. Yes, Orthodoxy seems a good fit for you.

I am personally big on the sovereignty and grace of God, salvation election, and justification by faith. I believe what Paul taught about these things, easily found in Romans 1-9. These are scripture- based beliefs that I discovered before I came into contact with Calvin’s writings. It so happens we both agree on these theological issues. However, in my opinion, Calvin was weak or in error in his teachings about theodicy, prophecy, eschatology, evangelism, liturgy, and the role of the Holy Spirit. And his later followers often turned into pinched-nose judgmental hypocrites (modern Pharisees), which is why Calvinism is not very popular anymore.

As for me, I am an orthodox-conservative-protestant-catholic- evangelical Anglican. Yeah, I hate to be pinned down too definitely. What I really am is a believer in Jesus Christ. What I am NOT is a liberal, politically correct, co-existing Laodicean.
But I submit that no church or tradition has it perfectly correct and none are fully unified.
 
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RaymondG

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There is no luck, nor works; it is Christ that saves. I think what you are not understanding is that both of these Scriptures are (obviously) true, but in a different sense.

Allow me to simplify this as much as is possible. I sincerely want you to understand this because it is Scriptural and involves a proper understanding of our faith and evangelism:

Remaining in = No fear
*
If you remain in Christ, there is no fear; you have passed from death to life on account of Christ's ransom for your redemption (John 15:5).
*You remain in Christ by obeying His commands (John 15:10); not because works save you, but because this is the evidence you have sincerely received Christ and are thus saved (again, John 15:5; contrast with John 15:6)
*Christ's commands are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind, and to love your neighbour as yourself (Luke 10:27 - this must be on God's terms, not by our fickle definitions of love; God will not be mocked, Galatians 6:7)

(Notice this: there is a basic law of logic you were aware of before I am going to explicate it to you. This law is designated the "law of identity". This law says that A is A, or A is identical to A, or, A is identical to itself; it is what is is, in simple terms. So if you call Jesus your Lord and Saviour, this is only true if Jesus is, in fact, your Lord (you obey one who is truly your Lord) and Saviour (someone saves you if you did not save yourself). Thus, Jesus is your Lord and saviour if you live like He is both Lord and Saviour; it is not a question of your ability to produce the sentence that He is.)

Not remaining in = fear
*
One fears because the Spirit of God produces fear in the one who does not belong to or is not remaining in Christ; this is actually evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit in one's life when they stray into sin (John 16:8, Isaiah 11:2, Luke 12:5).
*One does not remain in Christ when they are not producing fruit (John 16:6); the evidence of their sanctification that results from salvation is lacking; fear results for the one whom the Holy Spirit warns.

Summarizing point: The believer both has absolute security in Christ, and fear when he has reason to doubt he is remaining in Him. Thus logically you will have certainty - in Christ. Do you understand the meaning of this?

Do not forget again that some will have professed the Lord and He will not have known them (Matthew 7:23). Some seed also fell along the shallow soil and the thorns (Matthew 13:5-6), and seemed to belong to Christ, but never truly did. Be sure, and warn others to be sure, that they are producing thirty, sixty, or a hundred times what was sown; "Produce fruit in keeping with repentance (Matthew 3:8)." When you do this, then you will have the fruit of peace, joy and soundness of mind that is in Christ (John 15:11).

I dont believe in luck either....Hence the reason why i used it with you concerning this conversation.

You know a lot. Your wisdom and words are very enticing. Your wisdom is like thousands of stones standing one upon another, very high, forming a beautiful structure. Thousands look upon it and marvel at it's beauty. And you stand atop saying look at me.....look what I have built.

Your foundation, however is sand. Winds will come and not one stone will be left standing one upon another. The higher you build it.....the greater the fall.

One day you will realize that Man's wisdom is foolishness to God.

Except one comes to God as a little child, He shall in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven.

I say again. Good luck to you. We will meet one day in the Kingdom.......how long that takes.....is up to us.
 
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Dr Bruce Atkinson

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I dont believe in luck either....Hence the reason why i used it with you concerning this conversation.

You know a lot. Your wisdom and words are very enticing. Your wisdom is like thousands of stones standing one upon another, very high, forming a beautiful structure. Thousands look upon it and marvel at it's beauty. And you stand atop saying look at me.....look what I have built.

Your foundation, however is sand. Winds will come and not one stone will be left standing one upon another. The higher you build it.....the greater the fall.

One day you will realize that Man's wisdom is foolishness to God.

Except one comes to God as a little child, He shall in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven.

I say again. Good luck to you. We will meet one day in the Kingdom.......how long that takes.....is up to us.

Hello Raymond,
I pray for great Biblical insight for you (as I always pray it for myself).

Your comment above is a bit disturbing. It is a not-so-subtle put down without any specific criticism about the content of what 37 wrote.

From my examination of his writing here, the thing about 37 is that his structures are invariably based on the scriptures, not man's wisdom, thus on solid ground, not sand. Nor does he promote himself or call himself wise. He is not saying 'look at me,' he is saying look at the Word of God.

Yes, like you and me, he believes his views are correct--- but who has strong opinions if he thinks they are wrong? Perhaps you are a bit jealous of his knowledge? This can be corrected, but only with listening ears and humility.
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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I dont believe in luck either....Hence the reason why i used it with you concerning this conversation.

You know a lot. Your wisdom and words are very enticing. Your wisdom is like thousands of stones standing one upon another, very high, forming a beautiful structure. Thousands look upon it and marvel at it's beauty. And you stand atop saying look at me.....look what I have built.

Your foundation, however is sand. Winds will come and not one stone will be left standing one upon another. The higher you build it.....the greater the fall.

One day you will realize that Man's wisdom is foolishness to God.

Except one comes to God as a little child, He shall in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven.

I say again. Good luck to you. We will meet one day in the Kingdom.......how long that takes.....is up to us.

Do you suppose you are wise because you adopt some phrases of Christ at the expense of His doctrines? You aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with Scripture. All of my points are established on explicit Scriptural doctrines, comprehensively considered.

Stop being ignorant and pretending there is some arrogance on my part because I am being consistent and informative with the Scriptures. This should delight you if you sincerely interested in learning from the Bible rather than imposing your own presuppositions upon it. That makes you arrogant.
 
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RaymondG

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Do you suppose you are wise because you adopt some phrases of Christ at the expense of His doctrines? You aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with Scripture. All of my points are established on explicit Scriptural doctrines, comprehensively considered.

Stop being ignorant and pretending there is some arrogance on my part because I am being consistent and informative with the Scriptures. This should delight you if you sincerely interested in learning from the Bible rather than imposing your own presuppositions upon it. That makes you arrogant.

You are right. I was wrong. I hope you reach your desired destination.
 
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