Fear of Hell and Faith

[Even So]

Well, for the record, the bible does not teach an eternally burning hellfire of torture and damnation for lost souls. This doctrine is a twisting of the scriptures in their original language and a gross misunderstanding of how Greek and Hebrew are used. It also ignores the entire scope and meaning of salvation history. The doctrine of eternal hellfire is responsible for more atheism than anything else and it is unnecessary. It is contradictory to God's love and makes no sense from a cosmological, judicial, soteriological, theological and ethical standpoint. A faith built on fear is not a faith at all and the Bible says that perfect love casts out fear.

again another thread

 

[Even So]

E

If I was curt, I apologize.

you need to apologize for stealing Curt's name when your is John.

 

[Jim Langston]

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I would ask you, is there a difference between having fear and being fearful? I see the word "fearful" and I think one filled with fear (fear full). Do you make no distinction, expecially how often the bible tells us to fear God?

 

[S. Tellez]

Does anyone else have their faith in God based highly off of fear of Hell?

I have love of Jesus for dying for me and creating me. And was first drawn to the gospel by something else than fear of Hell. It was hope he'd remove a demon from me and something else long and complicated.

But fear of Hell has kept me from sinning and straying from the faith more than all else. I dislike some doctrines in the Bible, but I obey to submit to God just because he's God and out of fear of Hell. Not out of love. Things such as serving others and serving God by helping others has grown on me and I now do out of love for others and Him. He caused a change of heart in me. I am all for loving everyone too even our enemies. I agree with most of the New Testament. But I don't agree with some things in the Bible and the main reason I obey or don't support others doing them is fear of Hell. Makes me wonder how much I love God since some things in the Bible seem unfair to me.

I feel I need to change. I want a love of God to permeate my actions. Has anyone else went through this? What did you do to change?

"Doing good" for any reason other than the love of good isnt good. Its a conflict of interest. And it isnt doing good at all. A lot of people actually need to be told that God does not go against His own law. Believe it or not, God does not bribe, intimidate or manipulate witnesses. He always requires genuine testimony. Any testimony given out of fear, bribery or by force is thrown out. It is never accepted by God as genuine testimony because it isnt genuine. Loving what is good is loving God because He is good (not because He says Hes good, but because He does what is good all of the time.) And loving what is good is without any conflicts of interest whatsoever.

Hell is simply a maximum security prison for those who love evil for the purpose of keeping those who love evil from being able to ever commit their evil and harm others again. Deliverance from the corrupt nature is one thing, and something God will do for anyone who seeks Him and truth. Elective wilful crimes is another thing entirely and can be stopped by the one committing them. There is no deliverance from theft, rape, murder etc People chose to do or not to do those things or stop doing those things all by themselves. If you want deliverance from the corrupt nature and the rising up of the biological corrupt instincts of the flesh, only God can deliver from that and He is faithful to do so for those who seek Him in truth.

People are not delivered from Hell, because no one is born headed there in the first place. Only the rejection of God and all that is good and the love of evil will require one to be sequestered in that prison. Nor are we delivered from the punishment of sin. Rather God delivers from sin itself (the corrupt biological instincts) of which we cannot control and could not help being born with. God saves from that which is not under our control, not from things that are under our control, and this is through faith in Christ. - "for He will save His people from their sins.” Mt. 1:21

 

[rrguy]

You can be obedient because of Love an or fear. IDK about faith because of fear? You must have faith something exist to fear it or Love it? You must also know & understand in order to Love Someone. Loving our idea of who Someone is not Loving them?




I was taught God is Love & Just. So yes to Love him & still fear him, or not obeying him & its consequences. He is the Truth & Salvation the path to him requires obedience? Not just To Say I Love & I am Loved only goes so far cause without action is it True? Many seem to focus & teach Love & the forgiveness. I Believe obedience is important & doing so cause of Love is Perfect & Best. Yet many like me need to understand the consequence of not being obedient an to continue to push our luck testing another's Love to the point of straying away. Now Possibly live a lie no longer Love like we claim? So Fear keeps many some what inline.
Nothing Compares to God but one of closest example is a Father & Son. The Balance of Love & Obedience, Knowledge or fear of what happens when kid puts his desires first & now True Love & Obedience don't exist? The Father will continue to Love his Son but where that kid ends up?

 

[fide]

Don't much agree with you. I have heard that the word "fear" as used in the verses you quote, has more to do with respecting our Father than standing there peeing your pants because you are terrified of what He is about to do to you.

In reading various publications from both the East and West, it is hard to ignore the fact that the West is consumed with God beating up sinners, while the East is more in tune with the idea of us being sons and daughters of God and our theosis making us like Him.

So which is it easier to love: someone whom you feel has your best interests at heart, who moves you to become the best person you can be, and who even chastens you in love and concern for your welfare (Eastern Christianity) or someone who will thump you every time you break one of the rules, who is ever-angry with sinners, and who causes bad things to happen to you (Western Christianity -especially the Medieval view of God)?

Perhaps if people were taught the love of God from the beginning instead of being pounded with daily threats of hell and being told how wretched they are and how God is just waiting to fry you, they would do things out of love for God. After all, think of someone in your life whom you really loved and respect and who you failed at some point in your life. No threats were necessary. You were shattered by what you had failed to do and how you let someone down whom you so deeply loved.

This is why Peter went out and wept - not just weeping but weeping bitterly.

"The respect of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." Many times, sheer fear causes us to be like Luther, who was terrified by God because God as Father reminded Luther of his abusive father. Luther is said to have said the he often hated God, and that is understandable if God was to be truly like Luther's wretched earthly father.

It is telling that the ministry of the Christ was prepared for by the ministry of the Baptist, whose message was "Repent!". And when Jesus began his ministry, He preached "Repent!"

Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea,
Mat 3:2 "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Mat 3:3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight."
Mat 3:4 Now John wore a garment of camel's hair, and a leather girdle around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.
Mat 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan,
Mat 3:6 and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 3:8 Bear fruit that befits repentance,
Mat 3:9 and do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.
Mat 3:10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."
​

Notice also the difference between those who heard the Baptist, and did repent and be baptized - and those who believed that they were fine with God, and did not repent and be baptized:

Luk 7:29 (When they heard this all the people and the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John;
Luk 7:30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)​

There can be no conversion without repentance, no healing without knowing your sickness, no cleansing if ignorant of the filth of the world that clings to the heart - no rebirth, no divinization for those who think they are fine with God and He is fine with them as they are. This is the difference between the sinners and tax collectors who knew their sin and feared the righteous justice of God, and could pray from the heart, "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner!" - and on the other hand, the pharisees and experts on religion who were already righteous in their own minds, who were "better" than those poor unwashed sinners.

The deeper the repentance, sorrow for sins, and fear of the righteous justice of God, then the deeper the conversion and joy in returning to the Father of mercies and love.

 

[Even So]

why? Because it was interesting?

Yes, and it may have many replies

 

[fide]

If your "faith" is based on fear; it isn't faith at all. It is fearfulness. The one who fears doesn't know God.

Mark 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

Notice the list below, the "fearful" are at the head of the list, before "the unbelieving" and "the abominable" and everything else. Your faith is either based in love of God, or, fear of God. The former is unfeigned faith which is born of love (1 Timothy 1:5); the latter is as feigned as fake can be. It's the same as "obeying" a bully because you're afraid of him. It's not faith at all. It's not love. It's not respect. It's feigned faith born of fear.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Faith (initially) comes only by grace, free and unmerited.

 

[beebert]

So then one can WANT to have Faith but not get faith because God does not give the grace?

 

[beebert]

Yes, and it may have many repliew

You are aloud to copy the text I wrote and start a thread about it if you want

 

[John Hyperspace]

I would ask you, is there a difference between having fear and being fearful? I see the word "fearful" and I think one filled with fear (fear full). Do you make no distinction, expecially how often the bible tells us to fear God?

Well, let's be sure to point out that the scripture tells us, not to fear, far more than it tells us to fear. And even the few times it says to "fear" it is using a word that is used of women "fearing" their husband:

Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence <5399> her husband.

So we're not quite talking about "naked fear" (we might call it) in the sense of, actually being "afraid": but something less-so, in the sense of, reverence, honour, respect, etc. But in unfeigned faith (which is the result of love) there is no fear:

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth <5399> is not made perfect in love.

But the sense of which is being used in this thread, this is the "naked fear"(dread) being employed in the verses cited. It's not only a feigned faith (again, being the same as someone who obeys a bully, not because they love the bully, but because they are afraid of the bully: their obedience isn't out of "a pure heart" or a "good conscience": it is built on fear, and obedience is not out of goodness of heart, but out of compulsion to obey, contrary to the nature to disobey) but would actually be a form of "no fear of God" in the sense that it is not reverencing God, but is "feigning reverence" out of, dread of God.

I say that the fearful do not know God because if they did know God, the would know love: love doesn't make afraid. Who is afraid of love?

1 John 4:7-8 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

But if you love someone, you will reverence them; you will honour and respect them. But this is not the intent of the use of "fear" in this thread proper.

Lu 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I would ask you, is there a difference between having fear and being fearful? I see the word "fearful" and I think one filled with fear (fear full). Do you make no distinction, expecially how often the bible tells us to fear God?

Let me put it this way. Say you have a man who desires to strike his neighbor and steal his belongings. But he doesn't do this because he is afraid of being punished. So he "obeys" and doesn't perform the thoughts in his heart. Is the man "good" and "faithful" because he obeys the law out of fear of being punished, though in his heart is ill will? We can say the man is "afraid of punishment" but does this really matter if his heart isn't itself "afraid to hurt others" even apart from "fear of punishment". Does this make sense?

 

[John Hyperspace]

Faith (initially) comes only by grace, free and unmerited.

Yes.

 

[Winken]

Yes, this is me. I fear God's wrath. I know most Christians think it is wrong. But I don't understand why God created hell if he did not want us to fear. It doesn't make sense to me.

Open your Bible. Read these in the order given: (don't be a speed-reader; use the NASB version).

John 14:6
John 3:16-17
John 5:24
Romans 10:8-13
Romans 8:1
Ephesians 2:8-9

If you are not led to confess Romans 10:8-13 in the NASB, choose any other version. Read each of the referenced scriptures again.

Confession comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

Remember that they didn't have iPhones, loud speakers, tape recorders back in that day, but it was still a call to confession. So today, the only voice you hear may be the "still, small, voice of the Holy Spirit." He is the guy who whispers in our ear.

Tune your computer to a voice-based scripture reading. Listen to each of those listed, above. A real person will be offering them to you. That's OK. He or she will be a Christian.

 

[Anguspure]

Does anyone else have their faith in God based highly off of fear of Hell?

I have love of Jesus for dying for me and creating me. And was first drawn to the gospel by something else than fear of Hell. It was hope he'd remove a demon from me and something else long and complicated.

But fear of Hell has kept me from sinning and straying from the faith more than all else. I dislike some doctrines in the Bible, but I obey to submit to God just because he's God and out of fear of Hell. Not out of love. Things such as serving others and serving God by helping others has grown on me and I now do out of love for others and Him. He caused a change of heart in me. I am all for loving everyone too even our enemies. I agree with most of the New Testament. But I don't agree with some things in the Bible and the main reason I obey or don't support others doing them is fear of Hell. Makes me wonder how much I love God since some things in the Bible seem unfair to me.

I feel I need to change. I want a love of God to permeate my actions. Has anyone else went through this? What did you do to change?

I found this interesting to think about, from the book UNCONDITIONAL IMMORTALITY
OR
RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD by WR West:
"The response I get more than all others combined is that "if there is no Hell, then it does not make any difference what we do."
I do not think most find life that useless. Most will do anything they can to live. Those who are sick do all they can to live a little longer. Only a few, who must not be right in the head, would not care if they did not live. Those who teach Hell are like a drowning man reaching for a straw. They reach for anything to save their theology. This theology belittles the death of Christ. God thought it important enough to give His only Son. Christ gave His life that we could live, but some say His gift of life to us is not important if there is no Hell
to be tormented in. To die is O.K. with them. This is the same as saying, "If I will not go to Hell, then I do not care if I die and do not go to Heaven, for I only want to go to Heaven to keep from going to Hell." Fear of Hell has made many hypocrites who go to church and think that they are
Christians, but it has never made one true Christian. Never saved one person, but it has made many hypocrites and will go on making them as long as it is taught. Anyone who goes to church because they fear Hell and would not go without this fear, is a hypocrite, not a Christian. Would they cheat on their wife, lie, and steal if it were not for fear they would be found out? If it is not from love of God, going to church for any other reason will do no good. If one is not a Christian
because of the love of God and the hope of eternal life, he cannot be a Christian because of the fear of going to Hell. The Lord does not add anyone to the church because of fear of the nonexistence pagan Hell. Some would say, "Has not the fear of Hell made many Christian?" No, the believing of Satan's lie over God has made many be lost even while they think they are saved.
No one can be frightened into Heaven. Hellfire preaching is the gospel of fear used by men like Jonathan Edwards. It cannot save."

 

[IAMANOBODY2015]

If your "faith" is based on fear; it isn't faith at all. It is fearfulness. The one who fears doesn't know God.

Mark 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

Notice the list below, the "fearful" are at the head of the list, before "the unbelieving" and "the abominable" and everything else. Your faith is either based in love of God, or, fear of God. The former is unfeigned faith which is born of love (1 Timothy 1:5); the latter is as feigned as fake can be. It's the same as "obeying" a bully because you're afraid of him. It's not faith at all. It's not love. It's not respect. It's feigned faith born of fear.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Personally, I think that means fearing man over God.

In other translations it replaced fearful with "cowards who turn away from me."

Why would God send anyone to hell for obeying him out of fear when Jesus said in Matthew, "don't fear man who could harm the body, but can not touch the soul; but fear God who can destroy both soul and body in hell?"

I have read scriptures thoroughly, and God has gotten many people to repent by threatening them. Nineveh is a good example. And God warned many people of the consequences of not obeying if they continued to sin. He even showed mercy to the Israelites when they cried out to mercy after God abandoned them to be captured, and then they cried out for mercy.

And fear swept the church when Anannias and Sapphira died for lying to the Holy Spirit.

And Moses also told the people of Israel not to fear when they saw the cloud on the mountain; but then he told them to use that fear to keep them from sinning.

Now, I could be taken these out of context.

 

[Winken]

Personally, I think that means fearing man over God.

In other translations it replaced fearful with "cowards who turn away from me."

Why would God send anyone to hell for obeying him out of fear when Jesus said in Matthew, "don't fear man who could harm the body, but can not touch the soul; but fear God who can destroy both soul and body in hell?"

I have read scriptures thoroughly, and God has gotten many people to repent by threatening them. Nineveh is a good example. And God warned many people of the consequences of not obeying if they continued to sin. He even showed mercy to the Israelites when they cried out to mercy after God abandoned them to be captured, and then they cried out for mercy.

And fear swept the church when Anannias and Sapphira died for lying to the Holy Spirit.

And Moses also told the people of Israel not to fear when they saw the cloud on the mountain; but then he told them to use that fear to keep them from sinning.

Now, I could be taken these out of context.

It is encouraging that you are studying the Hebrew Bible. However, I would encourage you to read the Apostle Paul, and the Book of John. Those two are where a seeker needs to be.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Personally, I think that means fearing man over God.

In other translations it replaced fearful with "cowards who turn away from me."

Bear in mind Jesus is equating being "fearful" with having "no faith": the disciples are afraid of dying in the storm. So it's not "cowards who turn away from me"(though such would fall into the category of "fearful")

Why would God send anyone to hell

I don't believe in the common understanding of "hell" so my answer would probably be rejected by them that do. But, if we consider it for sake of argument, I'd respond, "Why would God send anyone to hell?" and whatever your answer to that would be, would be your answer to the posed question. I suppose "holy justice"?

for obeying him out of fear when Jesus said in Matthew, "don't fear man who could harm the body, but can not touch the soul; but fear God who can destroy both soul and body in hell?"

Obedience out of fear isn't obedience out of a good heart of love. It's the opposite kind of obedience: forced, and, feigned. The same way a man who has murder in his heart might not commit the act for fear of being caught and punished. His obedience is pointless, it's feigned and forced, and doesn't do anything about his murderous heart (which is the real problem).

When Jesus said that, He wasn't saying "Obey the commandments out of fear of being punished" He was talking about the disciples being hated for speaking the gospel, and not to be afraid of people, or, not to deny Him before men out of fear, as if reverencing the power of men more than that of God; He is saying, if you're going to fear, then fear the higher power in order to avoid not "speaking in the light" and "confessing before men": but He is not meaning for us to be afraid of God and "do good because you're afraid of being punished for doing wrong"

21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

I have read scriptures thoroughly, and God has gotten many people to repent by threatening them. Nineveh is a good example. And God warned many people of the consequences of not obeying if they continued to sin. He even showed mercy to the Israelites when they cried out to mercy after God abandoned them to be captured, and then they cried out for mercy.

That was all under the covenant of law, which "works wrath" and fear is often used to threaten people because that is what the law does, threaten people into obedience. But that is not what grace does. People who are "afraid" are that way because of the wrath of the law: but them not under law, but, under grace, are "perfected in love" and their is no "fear" or "torment" any longer, as John says concerning perfected in love:

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

So anyone who is "fearful" isn't "perfect in love"; and so if you're seeing anyone in scripture (or, in the world) who is "fearful" then they have not been perfected in love. Meaning, they have not come out from being under law, and, into being under grace.

And fear swept the church when Anannias and Sapphira died for lying to the Holy Spirit.

Yes, but people being fearful doesn't mean that is the means of obedience. It just means people were frightened. And if they experienced "fear" then it is manifest they weren't under grace, or, perfected in love: but were still in the perfecting/refining process under law.

And Moses also told the people of Israel not to fear when they saw the cloud on the mountain; but then he told them to use that fear to keep them from sinning.

I don't think it must work very well since people still seem to be sinning. So either fear doesn't actually work, or, no one actually fears God. But suffice it to say, these people were under law, and not, under grace. Thus the fear of wrath. Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath:

and "fear" is what divides the called from the chosen:

Jud 7:3 Now therefore go to, proclaim in the ears of the people, saying, Whosoever is fearful and afraid, let him return and depart early from mount Gilead.

 

[IAMANOBODY2015]

Well, I may not be chosen then. That sucks

 

[IAMANOBODY2015]

It is encouraging that you are studying the Hebrew Bible. However, I would encourage you to read the Apostle Paul, and the Book of John. Those two are where a seeker needs to be.

OK. Thank you