Faith plus Works...how do you know if your doing enough works?

Apr 21, 2015
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Note that preceding those verses are a description of identifying false prophets by their fruits.

Matthew 5:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves."

So those who appear before Christ, claim to have done good works 'good fruits' in His name 'sheep's clothing', but instead bore bad fruit, contrary to Him, shown by 'you evildoers', who were inwardly 'ravenous wolves'.
 
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Brother Chris

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Is that really what that passage is about?

It seems to me the passage is really about Jesus approval of acts of mercy, not about justification by faith alone.

Notice again, those people are claiming they have done the works necessary to enter the Kingdom, but Christ rejects them. There is no amount of works that will ever save you. None. Those who trust in their works give evidence that they truly are not saved by faith alone. They are not born again, and are not new creatures in Christ. They continue to practice evil.
 
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EmSw

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Notice again, those people are claiming they have done the works necessary to enter the Kingdom, but Christ rejects them. There is no amount of works that will ever save you. None. Those who trust in their works give evidence that they truly are not saved by faith alone. They are not born again, and are not new creatures in Christ. They continue to practice evil.

So, if I freely choose to do the works of which James speaks to make my faith alive, I am not saved because it isn't by faith alone. Correct?

I am not born again, huh? I am not a new creature, huh? I am practicing evil, huh?

How will one come forth to the resurrection of life, if he fails to do good?

John 5:28-30 -
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Only one option remains if one does not do good. Which will you choose?
 
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Apr 21, 2015
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So, if I freely choose to do the works of which James speaks to make my faith alive, I am not saved because it isn't by faith alone. Correct?

I am not born again, huh? I am not a new creature, huh? I am practicing evil, huh?

How will one come forth to the resurrection of life, if he fails to do good?

You are saved by grace through Christ, works are fruit of the spirit - an identifier of a true believer. Not the means to salvation, but an actuality of having salvation to begin with.

The works you do in this life are for the merit of reward in heaven, if it were the basis of salvation then your life would be uncertainty, due to the fact that believing you are righteous in your own eyes is null.
 
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richard373

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I tend to focus on his Messiahship and resurrection as the starting points for belief in him. I believe his death is part of his mission, but I do not accept the idea that Jesus death imputes his active righteousness to the believer. We are responsible for our own deeds.

Be assured you are not alone - your understanding accords with the teaching of all known writers of the post-apostolic Church. They had not been dependant exclusively on biblical exegesis. They had received the faith from the apostles or their immediate or 3rd generation appointees who surely could not all have been in error concerning such an essential aspect of gospel salvation.
 
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Brother Chris

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So, if I freely choose to do the works of which James speaks to make my faith alive, I am not saved because it isn't by faith alone. Correct?

I am not born again, huh? I am not a new creature, huh? I am practicing evil, huh?

How will one come forth to the resurrection of life, if he fails to do good?

John 5:28-30 -
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Only one option remains if one does not do good. Which will you choose?

James isn't talking about doing works to earn salvation or keep salvation. James is saying that if you call yourself a born again Christian, and there is no evidence of it in your life, then your profession of faith is false. The evidence that someone has been saved, possess eternal life and has been justified by faith alone, is shown in their good works. The good works do not save them or keep them saved, they are simply the evidence that salvation already took place.
 
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Apr 21, 2015
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Be assured you are not alone - your understanding accords with the teaching of all known writers of the post-apostolic Church. They had not been dependant exclusively on biblical exegesis. They had received the faith from the apostles or their immediate or 3rd generation appointees who surely could not all have been in error concerning such an essential aspect of gospel salvation.

You are putting the emphasis of your faith on people who were not validated within the scriptures, with writings that cannot be claimed as inspired. Yet the biblical canon now - non catholic - is God breathed, and provides all that a man needs. Apostolic succession is unscriptural, not to mention the biased, false prophets that pop up everywhere and take claim to their own 'inspired' writings and teachings. Quite clearly in the Pauline Epistles churches that were set up had fallen back into their ways.

Biblical exegesis along with asking God for wisdom and understanding is the foundation of understanding the truth of Gods Word, not the sayings of men appointed dubiously .
 
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richard373

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You are putting the emphasis of your faith on people who were not validated within the scriptures, with writings that cannot be claimed as inspired. Yet the biblical canon now - non catholic - is God breathed, and provides all that a man needs. Apostolic succession is unscriptural, not to mention the biased, false prophets that pop up everywhere and take claim to their own 'inspired' writings and teachings. Quite clearly in the Pauline Epistles churches that were set up had fallen back into their ways.

Are you saying that all the men directly appointed by the apostles and the likes of Timothy and Jude were "dubious"? How can it possibly be the case that none whose writings we have available concerning the Christian faith in the 2nd/3rd century had any understanding of saving faith as initially Luther and now you understand it? If you were right,what would that say about the promises of Christ concerning His continued guidance to His people through the administration of the Holy Spirit. Did God care so little about souls as to leave the whole world in utter doctrinal darkness for centuries. I think not.


Biblical exegesis along with asking God for wisdom and understanding is the foundation of understanding the truth of Gods Word, not the sayings of men appointed dubiously .

And biblical exegesis is my foundation to determine truth, rather than the writing of the early fathers but it should be obvious looking at this forum and this thread in particular that the many people seeking to do exactly what you say come to a different understanding of the truth, including essential saving Truth. The earliest post-apostolic Christians had the massive advantage of having known the apostles or their immediate appointees. Yes they will have meditated and studied the gospels and epistles later to be assembled into what we now know as the Bible but these scriptures will have been explained to them, especially the aspects essential to salvation. They were not entirely dependant on the essential yet precarious business of biblical exegesis, so the fact that they came to a different understanding to you (and previously me as a Calvinist) should at least allow us the possibility that we may not have the case entirely sown up;).
 
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I agree a lot of people get confused these days with biblical exegesis, but normally it's down to not reading in a systematized way, rather relying on select verses and changing the underlying principles each time to fit their purpose. But I do deny that any church or members thereof have divine knowledge that God does not freely reveal to all that ask, I cannot think of any underlying principle or truth that the Bible will not reveal.

Timothy & Jude were not dubious, but I couldn't say the same for the succession of those that followed.
 
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richard373

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I agree a lot of people get confused these days with biblical exegesis, but normally it's down to not reading in a systematized way, rather relying on select verses and changing the underlying principles each time to fit their purpose.

I largely agree, but there's also the potential to get locked into error - for example interpreting the teaching of Jesus so as to fit our understanding of Paul (who has been known to be misinterpreted - 2Pet3:16)


But I do deny that any church or members thereof have divine knowledge that God does not freely reveal to all that ask, I cannot think of any underlying principle or truth that the Bible will not reveal.

The problem from my perspective is that for many years I interpreted Paul one way in terms of his teaching on saving faith, justification and the like, now substantially differently (e.g. in the understanding of imputation c.f. impartation of Christ's righteousness). That has nothing to do with my adopted church, that became the situation whilst I was still studying for Evangelical ministry at Bible College. If you look back at my post you will see I do note always agree with (RCC) teaching on certain matters and that is entirely due to my determination to be faithful to Scripture, having asked God to reveal it to me in the way you suggest. And I'm sure the other contributors to this thread do likewise yet we still do not come to the same view even concerning some essential matters.

Timothy & Jude were not dubious, but I couldn't say the same for the succession of those that followed.

Not all of them certainly but I find it somewhat unlikely that no trace of an understanding of saving faith was retained by any of them to be passed on to faithful assemblies. Apart from which, where was the Holy Spirit in all this - where was our God who loves the world and surely wishes them to hear a faithful account of the Good News so that they might revere His Son, turn to Him in repentance and obtain eternal life?
 
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I'm really glad that you keep faithful to the Scriptures in your views, rather than an imposed one by a denomination.

Satan is always at work trying to pervert the scriptures and the minds of men, God is always with us, but with that rationale why would God let mass atrocities to happen every day, for divisions within the Church, for false prophets and deceivers everywhere. We can't use that as a means for interpreting which denomination is right, because we don't understand God's divine purpose.

The Holy Spirit definitely has an active ministry, but in general is in subjection to the person resisting. It's hard to see the dividing line between truth and lies these days, can be stressful for those already established in the faith, nevermind new believers.
 
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FireDragon76

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Be the poster who spells it out for us, then. The two questions that have been asked over and over again are 1) How many good deeds? and 2) What is the ranking of good works? For example, throwing a dollar into the Salvation Army kettle cannot possibly be considered the equal of taking a homeless man into your home etc.

You go to church, you faithfully take the Sacraments, and you are forgiven and you have some assurance you are going to heaven. Not that different from Lutheranism really.

I don't think the amount of good deeds are quantifiable, and that's actually I think intentional. It may not be possible to be certain of ones salvation in this life, short of supernatural revelation.

I hope a Roman Catholic responds to this.
 
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FireDragon76

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You are putting the emphasis of your faith on people who were not validated within the scriptures, with writings that cannot be claimed as inspired. Yet the biblical canon now - non catholic - is God breathed, and provides all that a man needs. Apostolic succession is unscriptural .

I'm not looking to the Church Fathers to see inspired words as much as I am looking to them to understand the immediate context surrounding the Scriptures, and how they were first interpreted. I want to have the same mind as the apostles on issues that are so essential, and a way to get closer to that is by reading interpretations and commentary from people that actually knew them. It is not a substitute for exegesis of the Bible but it will help give more evidence to particular interpretations, a way to proof our own understanding against early Christians. If our faith does not match that of early Christians in the essentials, then something is amiss.
 
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FireDragon76

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Notice again, those people are claiming they have done the works necessary to enter the Kingdom, but Christ rejects them. There is no amount of works that will ever save you. None.

This interpretation is not supported by the passage. Christ clearly spells out that the works done to "the least of my brothers" were done to him, and thus separate the sheep from the goats. It has nothing to do with justification sola fide. If anything, it highlights that works contribute to our salvation.
 
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FreeGrace2

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So believing in Jesus now means you must believe he died for you?
I said that Jesus didn't die for angels, fallen or not. Your comment about believing in Jesus doesn't apply to angels.

But, yet, Paul was quite clear what was of first importance: that Christ died for our sins. 1 Cor 15:3.

That leads down the rabbit hole into debating if penal substitution is in fact the Biblical belief. I happen to think it is not.
What does penal substitution mean to you?
 
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Brother Chris

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This interpretation is not supported by the passage. Christ clearly spells out that the works done to "the least of my brothers" were done to him, and thus separate the sheep from the goats. It has nothing to do with justification sola fide. If anything, it highlights that works contribute to our salvation.

That is a different verse. I'm referring to Matthew 7:21-23. You are talking about Matthew 25:31-46, the parable of the sheep and the goats. These are two different judgments that occur at two different times. Matthew 7 happens at the Great White Throne judgment. Matthew 25 happens at the second coming of Christ. And now, Matthew 25 doesn't teach works salvation. That parable is about all those who are alive at Christ's second coming. Christ will set up His Millennial Kingdom, and not everyone alive will enter it. So He separates the people into two groups: sheep (believers) and goats (unbelievers). The sheep will give evidence of being born again and saved by their care and love for other Christians. The goats, are not saved, they don't love Christians and so they don't help them. This parable is not about charity or philanthropy. Anyone, even atheist can feed and care for the homeless. That doesn't save them.
 
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FireDragon76

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The sheep will give evidence of being born again and saved by their care and love for other Christians. The goats, are not saved, they don't love Christians and so they don't help them. This parable is not about charity or philanthropy. Anyone, even atheist can feed and care for the homeless. That doesn't save them.

I don't understand Jesus using the term "brother" to be so narrow. I believe he was talking about all people, but especially those that were outsiders or oppressed. After all, he mostly called himself the Son of Man, which is a Semitic expression which means "everyman" or "human one". Throughout his ministry he delt with outsiders and those not in his inner circle, and he praised their faith. This doesn't seem like someone bent on exclusivism.

What does penal substitution mean to you?

That God was so offended he couldn't forgive sins without Jesus dying for the believer, imputing to the believer his righteousness. I believe Christ died for our sins, but he doesn't impute to us his deeds. I also believe God can forgive sins any way he so chooses. He is not satisfied by bloodshed, that was not the motivation for Jesus Passion.
 
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richard373

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I don't think the amount of good deeds are quantifiable, and that's actually I think intentional. It may not be possible to be certain of ones salvation in this life, short of supernatural revelation.

I hope a Roman Catholic responds to this.

Just as I was hoping to take a break from this thread I noted your comment;)
I agree with a lot of what you've been saying, including the above. It's true we can't be certain or presumptive about our final salvation (Paul wasn't):

I press towards the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect be thus minded (Phi3:14:15KJV) And:-
I discipline my body like an athlete, training it do what it should. Otherwise I fear that after preaching to others, I myself might be disqualified (1Cor9:27)


Yet as he approached his death he was confident that a crown of righteousness awaited him. He had assurance. I believe we can know in our heart that we love the Lord, showing such by endeavouring to keep his commandments ["If you love Me, keep my commandments"]. As I've tried to explain to others the quantity of fruit is not the issue (except may be in terms of rewards) but the fact that it is there at all is the evidence that we are Christ's. If we love and stand by Him, He assuredly will not forsake us.
 
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You go to church, you faithfully take the Sacraments, and you are forgiven and you have some assurance you are going to heaven. [bless and do not curse]Not that different from Lutheranism really. [bless and do not curse]

<snip>

It's possible to provide a comprehensive solution, but it would be a big task and may actually be unhelpful by virtue of being complex and maybe hiding the actual point to be answered.

To focus on the question of how many good deeds are required, the answer is not:

"going to church and participating in the sacraments provides some assurance of going to heaven."

That's because going to church is an action taken to indicate belief that it results in the edification of the saints, so that they can quickly reach the state of being able to fulfill the requirements of the Law.

The problem in believing that merely attending church is an item on the list of requirements towards salvation is that, sometimes, the command not to avoid the gathering of saints can be followed by the letter and not by the spirit and thus, may not be profitable.

What exactly is following the letter of the law?


Quote
The letter of the law versus the spirit of the law is an idiomatic antithesis. When one obeys the letter of the law but not the spirit, one is obeying the literal interpretation of the words (the "letter") of the law, but not the intent of those who wrote the law.

Source : Letter and spirit of the law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If I stop at a red light at midnight with no observable traffic, I am following a law intended to provide maximum safety.

When the amber light turns on, I observe that a speeding motorcycle is about to jump the red. I could proceed at the green, but that would violate the intent of the law, to ensure maximum safety, since it would endanger the motorcyclist. Although I would have obeyed the letter of the law by proceeding through the green, I would have gone against its spirit.

The intent of the command not to avoid the gathering of the saints is to ensure that we edify each other, build up one another.

Those who study through correspondence courses know that a vital part of the learning process is missing, the discussing and interacting with the lecturer and with other students. In recognition of this, Paul asks believers to meet together and study. He rebukes those who proceed to study God's word without waiting till everyone is present:

1 Corinthians 11:20Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord&#8217;s Supper, 21for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.

Following the intent of the law to gather together is to ensure that the answers that God gives to each believer is used to edify the church. If we gather together just because God's word commands it, and do not build each other up whilst assembling, then we have missed the intent of the law, and this leads to an unfavorable judgment.

1 Corinthians 11:29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.

Romans 2:25For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.


To conclude, what ensures a favorable judgment is following the intent of the law, not going through the motions.

In other words, attending church and participating in the sacraments like baptism and communion do not lead to salvation, if the intent of these actions is not followed.

To properly answer the question of how many good deeds are required, we must study what Christ taught elsewhere.


In the parable of the king faced with the approach of an adversary, Jesus advises those in a similar position to examine their resources and decide if they had the means to defeat that adversary.

Is salvation the context in view in this parable?

Obviously not. It definitely does not mean that Jesus asked His listeners to choose between going to heaven and going to hell as a condition of self examination appears in the proposal. The goal can be reached if the assessment of the person's capability is favorable.

It seems more likely that the context In view is that of a king who will reward a great deed with a rich gift but will also reward a lesser deed with a smaller gift.

The first idea repeated in the parable of the builder who set out to build a tower and was ridiculed for not completing it.

To flesh out the situation, imagine being asked by the suzerain to contribute to the war against the Enemy. One vassal lord offers a hundred men, another the funds to build a battlement. Jesus equates this to giving up all one's possessions to follow Him. Another lord has already sunk all his wealth into building a dam to supply his kingdom's farms and has to ask for terms of peace: he will provision the army of the suzerain!


All three have offered acceptable support to the cause, one with terms of peace, a compromise, an extension of the deadline.


The teaching is that all these vassal lords have acted loyally, and it is loyalty, not acting against the interests of the suzerain, that ensures a favorable judgment.


Leading us to conclude that not being against God is being for Him. This is what receives a favorable judgment
 
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