Faith in Works + Works Saves?

[bcbsr]

Concerning Salvation from eternal damnation in hell fire. (Just to be specific about what "salvation" I'm referring to)

For those who believe that one's salvation is contingent upon one's performance, what is the basis of the hope for such people but the faith that they will end up living up to a level of performance qualifying them for salvation. And given that they themselves offer no guarantee that such will come to pass, I don't see much basis for hope and joy given such a soteriology.

The "faith" of such people is essentially "faith in their works"

Their logical formula for salvation is thus:

(Faith in their works) + Works => save

Much as one could argue this idea can be derived from James (Both from his statements in Acts 15 and his epistle), is that really the gospel message Paul preached?

 

[fhansen]

Concerning Salvation from eternal damnation in hell fire. (Just to be specific about what "salvation" I'm referring to)

For those who believe that one's salvation is contingent upon one's performance, what is the basis of the hope for such people but the faith that they will end up living up to a level of performance qualifying them for salvation. And given that they themselves offer no guarantee that such will come to pass, I don't see much basis for hope and joy given such a soteriology.

The "faith" of such people is essentially "faith in their works"

Their logical formula for salvation is thus:

(Faith in their works) + Works => save

Much as one could argue this idea can be derived from James (Both from his statements in Acts 15 and his epistle), is that really the gospel message Paul preached?

It's really a question of what constitutes justice for man. Did God have a further purpose in the whole drama of the Fall, the sufferings entailed in human life post-Eden, and our redemption, than to merely, later on, ignore sin by imputing justice or righteousness to the sinner so long as they believe, or did He have the purpose of ultimately restoring actual justice to the sinner, to His universe, and perhaps producing even greater justice yet, with the whole endeavor?

If justice or righteousness can truly be defined by love, which fulfills the law & the greatest commandments, then the works specified in the New Testament, such as those which faith is said to work through or express in Gal 5:6, or those mentioned in Matt 25:31-46: feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc, or those prepared for us to do as new creations in Christ Jesus according to Eph 2:10, can be looked upon as a measure of that love/justice/righteousness, by which we'll be judged.

The Parable of the Talents explains this well, how we are to "invest" the gifts given, and what can happen when we don't. Man has always had the obligation to love; this is essentially what Adam failed to do, preferring no obligation. We still tend to follow this course, this preference. But in the end, love is the very image of God that we're to be transformed into-and only love can compel authentic obedience-the right way IOW. This is what God is after in us-and for us-to draw us into the love which constitutes our justice, which achieves fellowship/unity with Him, and which alone can realize in us the happiness and satisfaction we all desire.

 

[bcbsr]

It's really a question of what constitutes justice for man. Did God have a further purpose in the whole drama of the Fall, the sufferings entailed in human life post-Eden, and our redemption, than to merely, later on, ignore sin by imputing justice or righteousness to the sinner so long as they believe, or did He have the purpose of ultimately restoring actual justice to the sinner, to His universe, and perhaps producing even greater justice yet, with the whole endeavor?

If justice or righteousness can truly be defined by love, which fulfills the law & the greatest commandments, then the works specified in the New Testament, such as those which faith is said to work through or express in Gal 5:6, or those mentioned in Matt 25:31-46: feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc, or those prepared for us to do as new creations in Christ Jesus according to Eph 2:10, can be looked upon as a measure of that love/justice/righteousness, by which we'll be judged.

The Parable of the Talents explains this well, how we are to "invest" the gifts given, and what can happen when we don't. Man has always had the obligation to love; this is essentially what Adam failed to do, preferring no obligation. We still tend to follow this course, this preference. But in the end, love is the very image of God that we're to be transformed into-and only love can compel authentic obedience-the right way IOW. This is what God is after in us-and for us-to draw us into the love which constitutes our justice, which achieves fellowship/unity with Him, and which alone can realize in us the happiness and satisfaction we all desire.

But if a person can just make up for being bad by being good, then what's the point of Jesus' death.

 

[fhansen]

But if a person can just make up for being bad by being good, then what's the point of Jesus' death.

Jesus's death reconciles us with God. Our sins are forgiven; we're new creations, given a fresh start. But with a difference this time. We now know God; we have union/communion with Him, 'apart from Whom we can do nothing'. This is the fulfillment of Jer 31:34, and this is how it was always meant to be. We don't make up for bad by being good, but yet justice isn't truly restored unless we are good; unless we're who God created us to be IOW. Jesus atones for our sins and then helps us to 'go and sin no more', with God now dwelling within.

 

[Soyeong]

Concerning Salvation from eternal damnation in hell fire. (Just to be specific about what "salvation" I'm referring to)

For those who believe that one's salvation is contingent upon one's performance, what is the basis of the hope for such people but the faith that they will end up living up to a level of performance qualifying them for salvation. And given that they themselves offer no guarantee that such will come to pass, I don't see much basis for hope and joy given such a soteriology.

The "faith" of such people is essentially "faith in their works"

Their logical formula for salvation is thus:

(Faith in their works) + Works => save

Much as one could argue this idea can be derived from James (Both from his statements in Acts 15 and his epistle), is that really the gospel message Paul preached?

Our salvation is from sin, so it involves being saved from doing bad works and the penalty of having done bad works, and is for the purpose of causing us to do good works. Jesus redeemed us from the penalty of doing bad works and set us free from slavery to doing bad works so that we would be free to become obedient slaves of God, which involves doing good works (Romans 6:16). Our salvation from doing bad works is not contingent on us doing good works, but rather it is contingent on our faith in God or our dependency on Him to lead us into doing good works. Obedience to God's instructions for how to do good works has never been about what to do in order to become saved from doing bad works, but rather it has always been about trusting God to lead us into doing good works because we are being saved from doing bad works. Both David and Paul delighted in obeying God's instructions for how to do good works (Psalms 1:1-2, Romans 7:22), so delight should likewise be how we respond to God's law. How awesome is the privilege that we get to do good works in service to our God?

 

[bcbsr]

Our salvation is from sin, so it involves being saved from doing bad works and the penalty of having done bad works, and is for the purpose of causing us to do good works. Jesus redeemed us from the penalty of doing bad works and set us free from slavery to doing bad works so that we would be free to become obedient slaves of God, which involves doing good works (Romans 6:16). Our salvation from doing bad works is not contingent on us doing good works, but rather it is contingent on our faith in God or our dependency on Him to lead us into doing good works. Obedience to God's instructions for how to do good works has never been about what to do in order to become saved from doing bad works, but rather it has always been about trusting God to lead us into doing good works because we are being saved from doing bad works. Both David and Paul delighted in obeying God's instructions for how to do good works (Psalms 1:1-2, Romans 7:22), so delight should likewise be how we respond to God's law. How awesome is the privilege that we get to do good works in service to our God?

As I made clear in the beginning, I wasn't talking about being "saved" from doing bad works. I was talking about being saved from eternal damnation in hell. (Typically called "justification")

 

[Soyeong]

As I made clear in the beginning, I wasn't talking about being "saved" from doing bad works. I was talking about being saved from eternal damnation in hell. (Typically called "justification")

Right, but it is is being saved from doing bad works that also saves us from damnation.

 

[bcbsr]

Right, but it is is being saved from doing bad works that also saves us from damnation.

And that's what I mean by "faith in works"

 

[Soyeong]

And that's what I mean by "faith in works"

But that isn't faith in works. The way to live by faith in God is to live in dependence on Him for instructions for how to do good works, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4). Living by faith does not refer to some other manner of living that doesn't involve obedience to God's commands. On the other hand, putting faith in our works is depending on our ability to do good works to become saved.

 

[Razare]

Much as one could argue this idea can be derived from James (Both from his statements in Acts 15 and his epistle), is that really the gospel message Paul preached?

That's not really what James said, though. It's people perverting what he said, applying their own interpretation which disagrees with both James epistle and Paul's epistles.

The congregation that James was apart of, understood very much the idea that they must repent from their own claims or boasting that they could "work for God" by their own effort. They understood this to be a dead work.

James takes this point for granted in his epistle and does not directly bother addressing that point.

Rather James is such in the faith camp, along with those he is ministering to, that he is saying, "If that thing you call faith is really faith, it is going to produce fruit to God! This is the kind of faith I have, you can see results!"

But just because James faith produced results in his life, did not mean, he was declaring that he could do good things without God's grace, without God's love given to him, and do these things in his own effort apart from God working through him. I hope people are able to understand and recognize this important difference.

There is "made for good works" as Paul and James describes Ephesians 2:10.

Then there is "I can do good on my own without God's help" and you find this in the Bible only in negative contexts where someone is boasting and about to fail. People in this ditch may even say, "Oh yes, God helps me." But if they have no faith, then that statement is just deception on their part by a false religious mindset.

Faith is very simple. It is trusting God. A person who does not trust God, is not exercising faith. And when we trust God, we see real world results that other people can see, not just us. These real world results are lived out through our lives by God's grace, and good works of God manifest, not our works, Good works of God. The good work of God through us is what James is describing.

The modern concept of "faith" is wrong, it's been perverted from the original Biblical definitions. If you just substitute faith for, "trusting God", and specifically, "trusting what God says", then you know faith.

 

[DingDing]

Concerning Salvation from eternal damnation in hell fire. (Just to be specific about what "salvation" I'm referring to)

For those who believe that one's salvation is contingent upon one's performance, what is the basis of the hope for such people but the faith that they will end up living up to a level of performance qualifying them for salvation. And given that they themselves offer no guarantee that such will come to pass, I don't see much basis for hope and joy given such a soteriology.

The "faith" of such people is essentially "faith in their works"

Their logical formula for salvation is thus:

(Faith in their works) + Works => save

Much as one could argue this idea can be derived from James (Both from his statements in Acts 15 and his epistle), is that really the gospel message Paul preached?

Hello bcbsr,

I just posted two other replies in similar threads in the section. I think you need to go back to that first post of mine, and think about the parable in Matthew 18. Your questions really beg the question as to what faith is. That is where my 2nd post comes in. Read the Sermon on the Mount and ask yourself this question: Can someone say they have 'faith' in God/Jesus, and believe He promises them eternal life, all while walking the wrong path? In this scenario, to believe Jesus, to have faith in Jesus, is to believe His word about where each path leads. So, do you think you can define 'faith' apart from the walking of the right path? That is what it seems to me you are trying to do. And I can quote where Paul says similar things as what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount. God will not be mocked; a man will reap what he sows.

 

[bcbsr]

Hello bcbsr,

I just posted two other replies in similar threads in the section. I think you need to go back to that first post of mine, and think about the parable in Matthew 18. Your questions really beg the question as to what faith is. That is where my 2nd post comes in. Read the Sermon on the Mount and ask yourself this question: Can someone say they have 'faith' in God/Jesus, and believe He promises them eternal life, all while walking the wrong path? In this scenario, to believe Jesus, to have faith in Jesus, is to believe His word about where each path leads. So, do you think you can define 'faith' apart from the walking of the right path? That is what it seems to me you are trying to do. And I can quote where Paul says similar things as what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount. God will not be mocked; a man will reap what he sows.

As I was saying, many of you chose "A", advocating putting your faith in your works to save you, rather than putting your faith in Christ to save you.

As for the parable of the unforgiving servant, it speaks nothing of "faith". Doesn't use the word "faith". Doesn't use the word "believe". Nor does it speak of regneration (being born of God). Rather it's one of his many parables about false brethren.

While you attempt to read salvation by works into the parable, what the Bible EXPLICITLY says of those who have been born of God is,

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10 ​

What I do is interrpet what the Scriptures may imply, like in the parables or historical sections like Acts, in light of what the Scriptures EXPLICITY say, as in this case, the wicked servant had not been born of God and as such was never under the New Covenant. Such was the case for everyone prior toActs 2 when the New Covenant came to be in effect.

Those who have put their faith in Christ to save them don't worry about condemnation, seeing as "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus". and Jesus said, " whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." They have eternal security guaranteed, which is part of what it means to believe the gospel.

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" Eph 1:13,14

"Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. .. Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." 1Cor 5:1,5​

The Neo-Circumcision don't believe the gospel, reject the grace of God (in fact view the grace of God as a license to sin) and opt for putting their faith in their works to qualify them for salvation. (Which is the curse of the Law) There's no basis for a confident hope and joy characteristic of those born of God that they will go to heaven, seeing as for them they could lose their salvation status at any moment and ending up in hell fire, contrary to the attitude spoken throughout Paul's epistles, such as above, of the fate of those who have believed the gospel.

And while you Neo-Circumcision types would point out all the verses correlating salvation and behavior, you neglect to interpret such in light of the New Covenant promise as I've pointed out above. Sheep behave as sheep because they are sheep. But a dog goes back to its vomit.

 

[DingDing]

As for the parable of the unforgiving servant [Matthew 18], it speaks nothing of "faith". Doesn't use the word "faith". Doesn't use the word "believe". Nor does it speak of regneration (being born of God). Rather it's one of his many parables about false brethren.

The parable talks about sin, repentance, and forgiveness. I take it that in your view these have nothing to do with salvation. And I suppose you will tell me that the forgiveness in the parable was also false. (So the man was never actually forgiven.) So if this parable contains false points, then so can Jesus' other teachings. So who decides which things are false and which are true? I believe most can see right through this intentionally bad interpretation. So why can't you be more honest with this passage?

While you attempt to read salvation by works into the parable...

The parable has nothing to do with salvation by works... it is dealing with forgiveness and sin. The teaching is that those who have been forgiven are expected to be forgiving, and if they are not, there will be hell to pay. Salvation comes with strings attached. You can call this salvation by works all you want, but it really is an issue of faith (what faith really is).

Jesus said, "Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord', yet do not do the things I say?" I take it you will tell me that it is one thing to be saved, and another to be able to call Him Lord.

 

[bcbsr]

The parable talks about sin, repentance, and forgiveness. I take it that in your view these have nothing to do with salvation. And I suppose you will tell me that the forgiveness in the parable was also false. (So the man was never actually forgiven.) So if this parable contains false points, then so can Jesus' other teachings. So who decides which things are false and which are true? I believe most can see right through this intentionally bad interpretation. So why can't you be more honest with this passage?



The parable has nothing to do with salvation by works... it is dealing with forgiveness and sin. The teaching is that those who have been forgiven are expected to be forgiving, and if they are not, there will be hell to pay. Salvation comes with strings attached. You can call this salvation by works all you want, but it really is an issue of faith (what faith really is).

Jesus said, "Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord', yet do not do the things I say?" I take it you will tell me that it is one thing to be saved, and another to be able to call Him Lord.

As is to be expected you misrepresent what I said, bearing false witness against me, a sin of which I would hope you would repent one day.

As I said, and as the Scriptures say, those born of God behavior characteristically behave as children of God should because they have been born of God. Those who are not under the New Covenant do not have eternal security and there is no guarantee that such people will behave themselves. If you were more honest in interpreting the Scriptures in light of the Scriptures rather than reading you Neo-Circumcision soteriology into the Scriptures we'd be in agreement.

Yet another false accusation that you allege me claiming to call Jesus Lord doesn't mean you do what he says. Seems you're very much in the camp of those Paul spoke of saying, "Why not say— as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say— "Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved."

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

I probably diverge from most Protestants, particularly Evangelicals, regarding salvation. I still consider myself an Evangelical even though my understanding of salvation is more in line with what the Anabaptists believe.

A big problem in our churches today is that we put too much emphasis on trying to get people "saved" (as in making a confession and accepting Christ and then have them carry on.) and not enough about carrying out that faith.

Nothing is free, not even faith. Our faith and reconciliation still costed a life (that life is Jesus) and God did all the work in providing us with a way out.

It is true that our works do not save us. At least, not in the sense that we have to earn our salvation or if we do works for the wrong reasons.

A true born again Christian will act out his faith in every area of his life. Regeneration inevitably brings a change of heart and we will aspire to live like Christ.

If one says he believes, but does not show any signs, it's likely that his faith is not genuine.

Why I am sure most Protestants would agree with this, they way we teach it is concerning.

As stated above, we focus too much on people "conversion experience", but not helping them make sure their faith is genuine and leading them towards spiritual growth. I think the mainline Protestant denominations are right in this area.

 

[EmSw]

It is true that our works do not save us. At least, not in the sense that we have to earn our salvation or if we do works for the wrong reasons.

A true born again Christian will act out his faith in every area of his life. Regeneration inevitably brings a change of heart and we will aspire to live like Christ.

If one says he believes, but does not show any signs, it's likely that his faith is not genuine.

So, will a person be saved without good works? Will his faith ever be genuine without good works?

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

So, will a person be saved without good works? Will his faith ever be genuine without good works?

That is a good question.

I feel like it is not my place to judge another believer's salvation, and that is between him and God.

I'd say it is possible, since all things are possible with God, but it also impossible to know another person's heart.

Part of the salvation process is regeneration, that is- becoming a new creation. We cannot be children of God and continue our old lifestyle. We are called out of the world and set apart from it, and it irks me when I see other Christians living like the world.

Please do correct me if I am wrong. The last thing I want to be is a false shepherd.

 

[EmSw]

That is a good question.

I feel like it is not my place to judge another believer's salvation, and that is between him and God.

I'd say it is possible, since all things are possible with God, but it also impossible to know another person's heart.

Part of the salvation process is regeneration, that is- becoming a new creation. We cannot be children of God and continue our old lifestyle. We are called out of the world and set apart from it, and it irks me when I see other Christians living like the world.

Please do correct me if I am wrong. The last thing I want to be is a false shepherd.

No need for correction; as you say, I don't know your heart. I totally agree that anyone claiming to be regenerated must put away the old man, renew their mind, and put on the new man. It is my belief that we put away the old man first, renew our minds second, and finally, put on the new man third.

 

[bcbsr]

So, will a person be saved without good works? Will his faith ever be genuine without good works?

Yes. Case in point - Abraham.

Rom 4:2,3 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Gen 15:6

Paul's logic was that between the promise of Gen 15:5 and it's fulfillment in Gen 15:6 there is no mention of Abraham doing anything but simply believing the promise. Thus Abraham was saved by faith alone apart from works.

Paul elaborates on this principle saying, "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works"

And notice from the context by "works" he's not referring to some subset of regulations of the law of Moses as some say, but to the principle of doing works to qualify one to be saved.

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Rom 3:23,24

Having been saved the believer goes on to live the Christian life as one who has been saved, guaranteed eternal life and having eternal security, free from the fear of condemnation.

 

[Geralt]

salvation has always been conditional with one being "righteous", and to be righteous is to follow the law - good works. unfortunately God's standard is not just following the law (or striving to follow), but PERFECTLY righteous.

that is the problem with all the other writers here in the forum supporting works+faith based salvation, they have a puny God who is satisfied with one striving to follow the law, and not a perfectly holy God whose demand is perfect INFALLIBLE obedience of the law. only one sinful act either by motive or action damns the person for eternity (James 2:10). Sincerity will not save you, for righteous is doing "perfectly" the law, and not just trying then falling then trying again, etc..

that is where faith comes in, for faith in christ actually imputes to us another "righteousness" not our own, or earned by us. (Romans 3). this is PERFECT, INFALLIBLE righteousness earned by the Son of God himself.

so bottom line is we are SAVED BY WORKS, but not our own works, but Christ's work applied to us. and we earn this by Faith in Christ-> thus the famous SALVATION BY FAITH ALONE.

so correctly it is SALVATION BY FAITH in Christ Alone, so that in the end / or in judgement day, we are SAVED BY WORKS not our own but earned by CHRIST ALONE applied to us to which we are "made righteous".

Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. ​

Concerning Salvation from eternal damnation in hell fire. (Just to be specific about what "salvation" I'm referring to)

For those who believe that one's salvation is contingent upon one's performance, what is the basis of the hope for such people but the faith that they will end up living up to a level of performance qualifying them for salvation. And given that they themselves offer no guarantee that such will come to pass, I don't see much basis for hope and joy given such a soteriology.

The "faith" of such people is essentially "faith in their works"

Their logical formula for salvation is thus:

(Faith in their works) + Works => save

Much as one could argue this idea can be derived from James (Both from his statements in Acts 15 and his epistle), is that really the gospel message Paul preached?