Faith in the work of Christ

[twin1954]

As you can read in my signature true saving faith is not in the work of Christ but in the Christ who did the work.

Now I know that that is going to be controversial and I am not trying to stir up trouble. I simply desire for folks to start grasping the simple truth that the faith that the common religious conglomeration is teaching is not saving faith.

Is it possible to have faith in the work of Christ but not faith in the Christ who did the work? Yes it is.

So where does your faith lie and to what did you declare to have faith in when you became a "christian"?

 

[John Davidson]

As you can read in my signature true saving faith is not in the work of Christ but in the Christ who did the work.

Now I know that that is going to be controversial and I am not trying to stir up trouble. I simply desire for folks to start grasping the simple truth that the faith that the common religious conglomeration is teaching is not saving faith.

Is it possible to have faith in the work of Christ but not faith in the Christ who did the work? Yes it is.

So where does your faith lie and to what did you declare to have faith in when you became a "christian"?

I am sorry but your post is in error.

As Christians we are called to have faith in BOTH Christ and his work.

 

[-57]

As you can read in my signature true saving faith is not in the work of Christ but in the Christ who did the work.

Now I know that that is going to be controversial and I am not trying to stir up trouble. I simply desire for folks to start grasping the simple truth that the faith that the common religious conglomeration is teaching is not saving faith.

Is it possible to have faith in the work of Christ but not faith in the Christ who did the work? Yes it is.

So where does your faith lie and to what did you declare to have faith in when you became a "christian"?

The work of Christ qualified Him because He did the work.

...How that sound?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I am sorry but your post is in error.

As Christians we are called to have faith in BOTH Christ and his work.

Yes, and since faith is a gift,
whatever faith YHWH offers , ACCEPT !

 

[twin1954]

I am sorry but your post is in error.

As Christians we are called to have faith in BOTH Christ and his work.

Show me where in the Scriptures that we are commanded or even admonished to believe on the work of Christ. We are told to believe on Christ.

To believe on His work is to place our faith in something that was done. That is like putting my faith in the incantation of the priest who turns the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. It is to look to what was done instead of who did it. We may highly value the priest who said the incantation but our faith lies in the incantation and what it is supposed to do. That just is not saving faith.

Faith that saves looks to the Christ of God who did the work of salvation. We don't look back to something He did but to Him who lives and has already accomplished all to save His people from their sin. That is why the Apostles preached a risen Savior not a dead one.

When we point people to have faith in the work of Christ it is like pointing them to the pole that held up the Brazen Serpent. There is no hope in the pole but in the One who is held up by it.

That certainly isn't saying that the work of Christ is meaningless but that it only has its effect because of Him who did the work.

It is easy to point sinners to the work of Christ. Everybody wants there sin removed. It is no trouble to tell sinners that they can have a clean slate with God if they will only look to the work of Christ. But telling them that they must look to the Christ who is King and Lord is a different matter altogether.

We tell people of His wondrous work to be sure but we do not call on men to have faith in His work we call on them to believe on Him who did the work.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

John 10:37
If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me.

John 10:38
But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

John 10:25-26New International Version (NIV)

25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

 

[twin1954]

The work of Christ qualified Him because He did the work.

...How that sound?

Not good. It isn't His work that qualified Him but who He is that qualified the work. If I had stood in the place of a convicted murderer and went to the death chamber it would be impossible for the judge to put me to death in His place because I do not have the right to give my life for him. My life belongs to the Lord who gave it and I cannot righteously lay it down for another. Moreover I have my own sin to be punished for.

But that is not the case with the Lord Jesus Christ. He not only has full authority to lay down His life, since it isn't derived from any source but Himself, but had no sin of His own because He is God. That is the point He is making in John 10:17-18

(Joh 10:17) For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.

(Joh 10:18) No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."

The work of Christ is not worth anything if He isn't the God-Man who laid down His life for His sheep. The focus of the Scriptures is who He is and why that makes His work to be more than just the work of a mere man.

The work is important but it is He who did the work that saves us.

 

[twin1954]

John 10:37
If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me.

John 10:38
But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

John 10:25-26New International Version (NIV)

25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

None of those passages point us to believe on His work. His work testifies to who He is and that is the point He was making.

Keep searching you will not find it.

(Joh 17:3) And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

 

[-57]

None of those passages point us to believe on His work. His work testifies to who He is and that is the point He was making.

Keep searching you will not find it.

(Joh 17:3) And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

You replied....It isn't His work that qualified.
Because Jesus was sinless...He qualified. If Jesus sinned He would not have been qualified to be the savior.

I also see your point.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

John 10:37
If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me.

John 10:38
But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me,
(((believe the works themselves
(((, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me)))
, and I in the Father.")))

 

[twin1954]

John 10:37
If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me.

John 10:38
But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me,
(((believe the works themselves
(((, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me)))
, and I in the Father.")))

Again the works, and we are talking here about His feeding thousands and healing the sick and other miracles He performed, testified to who He was. That is what He actually said in the passages that you give. But here is another that you might want to consider.

(Heb 2:3) how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard,

(Heb 2:4) while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

You are trying to supplant the work that He did on the cross with the miracles that He performed. It simply will not work.

 

[twin1954]

You replied....It isn't His work that qualified.
Because Jesus was sinless...He qualified. If Jesus sinned He would not have been qualified to be the savior.

I also see your point.

The reason that He was sinless was because He is God who cannot sin. It was necessary that He be a man because it was man's sin that He must put away and bring in the perfect righteousness as a man. It was necessary that He be God because only God could lay down His life and be sufficient to accomplish the putting away of sin for all that He died.

The God-Man our Savior met every condition and actually accomplished all that He set out to do because of who He is.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

John 10:37
If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me.

John 10:38
But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

Jesus said "believe the works themselves" EVEN THOUGH YOU DO NOT BELIEVE ME"

You said none of those passages point us to believe on His work.

None of those passages point us to believe on His work.

 

[twin1954]

John 10:37
If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me.

John 10:38
But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

Jesus said "believe the works themselves" EVEN THOUGH YOU DO NOT BELIEVE ME"

You said none of those passages point us to believe on His work.

No they point those to whom He was speaking to believe that the works testify to who He is. You are twisting the Scriptures to make them say what they do not actually say. You are picking and choosing certain words and using them out of context.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No they point those to whom He was speaking to believe that the works testify to who He is. You are twisting the Scriptures to make them say what they do not actually say. You are picking and choosing certain words and using them out of context.

I only replied to your specific defending some statement of yours or a doctrine (or other teaching you stated) with a statement directly that is contrary to what Jesus in Scripture says directly.

Jesus speaks clearly in Scripture, and not in agreement with what you claimed.

Is is Jesus Himself Who Says:
John 10:37
If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me.

John 10:38
But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me,
believe the works themselves,
so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

As you originally asked for :

Show me where in the Scriptures that we are commanded or even admonished to believe on the work of Christ.

 

[twin1954]

I only replied to your specific defending some statement of yours or a doctrine (or other teaching you stated) with a statement directly that is contrary to what Jesus in Scripture says directly.

Jesus speaks clearly in Scripture, and not in agreement with what you claimed.

Is is Jesus Himself Who Says:
John 10:37
If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me.

John 10:38
But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me,
believe the works themselves,
so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

As you originally asked for :

And knowing the context of my statement you childishly disregard it.

I am done playing childish games with you.

 

[Soyeong]

As you can read in my signature true saving faith is not in the work of Christ but in the Christ who did the work.

Now I know that that is going to be controversial and I am not trying to stir up trouble. I simply desire for folks to start grasping the simple truth that the faith that the common religious conglomeration is teaching is not saving faith.

Is it possible to have faith in the work of Christ but not faith in the Christ who did the work? Yes it is.

So where does your faith lie and to what did you declare to have faith in when you became a "christian"?

This seems to me like trying to draw a distinction between someone who obeys God and someone who obeys God's commands, when we obey God through obeying His commands. We have faith in the finished work of Christ only because we have faith in Christ who did the work.

 

[John Davidson]

Show me where in the Scriptures that we are commanded or even admonished to believe on the work of Christ. We are told to believe on Christ.

To believe on His work is to place our faith in something that was done. That is like putting my faith in the incantation of the priest who turns the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. It is to look to what was done instead of who did it. We may highly value the priest who said the incantation but our faith lies in the incantation and what it is supposed to do. That just is not saving faith.

Faith that saves looks to the Christ of God who did the work of salvation. We don't look back to something He did but to Him who lives and has already accomplished all to save His people from their sin. That is why the Apostles preached a risen Savior not a dead one.

When we point people to have faith in the work of Christ it is like pointing them to the pole that held up the Brazen Serpent. There is no hope in the pole but in the One who is held up by it.

That certainly isn't saying that the work of Christ is meaningless but that it only has its effect because of Him who did the work.

It is easy to point sinners to the work of Christ. Everybody wants there sin removed. It is no trouble to tell sinners that they can have a clean slate with God if they will only look to the work of Christ. But telling them that they must look to the Christ who is King and Lord is a different matter altogether.

We tell people of His wondrous work to be sure but we do not call on men to have faith in His work we call on them to believe on Him who did the work.

Having faith in Christ IS having faith in his work. They are one and the same and cannot be divided. Christ's mission was to be crucified and die on Calvary. If you don't believe in that work then you don't believe in him.

Your argument is pure fallacy.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Having faith in Christ IS having faith in his work. They are one and the same and cannot be divided. Christ's mission was to be crucified and die on Calvary. If you don't believe in that work then you don't believe in him.

Your argument is pure fallacy.

Perhaps not, without knowing why you disagree (motives and all) so strongly.

The most successful healer in the history of the united states
had no trouble healing people (and animals)
as long as they did what he said to do (after testing).

They didn't have to believe in him at all - as long as they did what he said, they were healed.

 

[John Davidson]

John 14

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.