Explain the seals of Revelation.

[iamlamad]

The preconceived glasses are on you face. Read Revelation 7...it is a vision of all of God's redeemed but you're so literal you CANNOT apply scripture properly.

Look at Revelation 7:3:
3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.

Now listen to Paul in Ephesians 2;13, 14:
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
There are no preconceived glasses...just your inability to correlate scripture!

Hmmm. Not a tough decision at all: you say "all of God's redeemed;" God says 144,000: 12,000 from each tribe.

I choose what the BIBLE says. By the way, believers are sealed IN THEIR SPIRIT by the HOLY SPIRIT, while these are sealed on their forehead: DIFFERENT TIME; DIFFERENT sealing, DIFFERENT PURPOSE.

LAMAD

 

[ebedmelech]

Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it's unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Nope. Revelation is repetitive... and as "literal" as the literature of the book makes it.

As I told you before...when you read the OT, Revelation is much easier to understand, because you can correlate with Ezekiel, Exodus, Zechariah, Malachi and so on. So keep saying "literal"...but learn to understand "literature"...which means you allow the writer to interpret what he means.

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

Keep waiting on it.

The number 144,000 in Revelation 7:4 and Revelation 14:1,3 will be a literal number of people, which will consist of literally 12 groups with literally 12,000 people in each group (Revelation 7:5-8). Similarly, the 144,000 will be literal male virgins, never having had intercourse with women (Revelation 14:4), just as, for example, 1 Corinthians 7:25 refers to literal virgins.

That's pretty ignorant of what John said. He never saw 144,000 from the 12 tribes in Revelation 7! He HEARD the number. When he "looked" he saw who the 144,000 were...which is all of God's redeemed.

At Revelation 14 you again show you don't correlate scripture. When the prophets spoke of chastity it almost always meant not turning to other gods. Notice "they follow "The Lamb" everywhere he goes. Next...you should immediately hear Jesus in John 10..."MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, AND I KNOW THEM, AND THEY FOLLOW ME".

Is that ringing a bell Bible2?

All obedient people in the church will be spiritually protected during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:4), along with some others, will be physically protected so that they will survive the tribulation's first stage (in Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). Near the end of this first stage, the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all others in the church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).

After the 2nd stage is over, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while two other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14), and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

After the Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These vials will be the tribulation's 4th and final stage (Revelation 16). Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation on the earth. They are those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.

Keep waiting on that then.

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 242:

Revelation is repetitive... and as "literal" as the literature of the book makes it.

Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected or changed church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

ebedmelech said in post 242:

Revelation is repetitive... and as "literal" as the literature of the book makes it.

Are you thinking of what's sometimes called "the apocalyptic genre"? If so, Revelation itself can be almost entirely literal because, as scripture, it is not bound by any man-made ideas regarding any made-made categories for writings in general. Revelation, like other scripture, was written by the inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16), meaning that it wasn't written by the will of man, but written by a holy man as he was moved by the Holy Spirit to write it (cf. 2 Peter 1:21), so that the words of Revelation are what the Holy Spirit himself spoke (cf. Acts 1:16, Acts 28:25b). And nothing about these words requires that Revelation can't be almost entirely literal.

ebedmelech said in post 242:

When he "looked" he saw who the 144,000 were...which is all of God's redeemed.

Revelation 7:3-8 and Revelation 7:9-17 are two different sets of people: one on earth and one in heaven, one that's numbered and one that isn't.

 

[ebedmelech]

Hmmm. Not a tough decision at all: you say "all of God's redeemed;" God says 144,000: 12,000 from each tribe.

I choose what the BIBLE says. By the way, believers are sealed IN THEIR SPIRIT by the HOLY SPIRIT, while these are sealed on their forehead: DIFFERENT TIME; DIFFERENT sealing, DIFFERENT PURPOSE.

LAMAD

Hmmm....John "Heard" the 12,000 of each tribe...but did you read what he saw after that? Revelation 7:9:
9 After these things I looked, and [/COLOR]behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

Now...do yourself a favor and read Revelation, and notice that EVERY time John HEARS something. he will look and see what what he heard means.

This is why the 144,000 is all of God's redeemed...and why Paul said they are not all Israel that are descended from Israel.

It's also why Isaiah 10:22 says:
22 For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea, Only a remnant within them will return; A destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness.

Work with that...

 

[iamlamad]

Hmmm....John "Heard" the 12,000 of each tribe...but did you read what he saw after that? Revelation 7:9:
9 After these things I looked, and [/COLOR]behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

Now...do yourself a favor and read Revelation, and notice that EVERY time John HEARS something. he will look and see what what he heard means.

This is why the 144,000 is all of God's redeemed...and why Paul said they are not all Israel that are descended from Israel.

It's also why Isaiah 10:22 says:
22 For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea, Only a remnant within them will return; A destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness.

Work with that...

WRONG! Is John not even allowed to change subjects? He always uses words like " After this.." And this is exactly what He writes after the sealing of the 144,000. IT IS A NEW SUBJECT. The great crowd around the throne is the just raptured CHURCH. They were raptured right where Paul said they would be, JUST BEFORE the signs of the Day of the Lord.

Why is it you have to twist all these scriptures? Can you simply NOT BELIEVE what John wrote, that these are from ISRAEL? Hmmm. Maybe your mom was a JEW?

LAMAD

 

[ebedmelech]

WRONG! Is John not even allowed to change subjects? He always uses words like " After this.." And this is exactly what He writes after the sealing of the 144,000. IT IS A NEW SUBJECT. The great crowd around the throne is the just raptured CHURCH. They were raptured right where Paul said they would be, JUST BEFORE the signs of the Day of the Lord.

Wrong???? Let me show you who's wrong...they are sealed in Revelation 7:5-8
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

So we have the 144,000 sealed, but John hasn't seen anything, he HEARD them counted. In the very next verse John SEES what the 144,000 are. Revelation 7:9:
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

Now...you can certainly ignore it...BUT WHY did John only hear the 144,000 and not see anything? That would be because if you read Revelation and take notice John continuously will hear a voice, and the he will see what that means. So like I said, ignore that...but it doesn't change the fact that this is the pattern as John hears and see what that which he hears means.

Why is it you have to twist all these scriptures? Can you simply NOT BELIEVE what John wrote, that these are from ISRAEL? Hmmm. Maybe your mom was a JEW?
LAMAD

I'll ignore your nonsense, and simply inform you that you have been taught to ignore the facts of scripture.

Just as I said read Romans 2;28, 29:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

That doesn't have to be twisted Lamad! It's pretty plain that Paul is speaking in spiritual terms of salvation. You're the one ignoring scripture! Paul has just said plain as day salvation makes one a true Jew!!!

Just a few more places this point is made:

Romans 9:6, 7:
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

The promise is the Lord Jesus Christ...so now what?

Philippians 3:2, 3:
2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

Do you need more to show that Christians whether Jew or Gentile are the TRUE JEWS in the SPIRIT? Or do you want to simply hold to your erroneous teaching???

 

[iamlamad]

WRONG! Is John not even allowed to change subjects? He always uses words like " After this.." And this is exactly what He writes after the sealing of the 144,000. IT IS A NEW SUBJECT. The great crowd around the throne is the just raptured CHURCH. They were raptured right where Paul said they would be, JUST BEFORE the signs of the Day of the Lord.

Wrong???? Let me show you who's wrong...they are sealed in Revelation 7:5-8
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

So we have the 144,000 sealed, but John hasn't seen anything, he HEARD them counted. In the very next verse John SEES what the 144,000 are. Revelation 7:9:
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

Now...you can certainly ignore it...BUT WHY did John only hear the 144,000 and not see anything? That would be because if you read Revelation and take notice John continuously will hear a voice, and the he will see what that means. So like I said, ignore that...but it doesn't change the fact that this is the pattern as John hears and see what that which he hears means.

I'll ignore your nonsense, and simply inform you that you have been taught to ignore the facts of scripture.

Just as I said read Romans 2;28, 29:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

That doesn't have to be twisted Lamad! It's pretty plain that Paul is speaking in spiritual terms of salvation. You're the one ignoring scripture! Paul has just said plain as day salvation makes one a true Jew!!!

Just a few more places this point is made:

Romans 9:6, 7:
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

The promise is the Lord Jesus Christ...so now what?

Philippians 3:2, 3:
2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

Do you need more to show that Christians whether Jew or Gentile are the TRUE JEWS in the SPIRIT? Or do you want to simply hold to your erroneous teaching???

YOu simply cannot believe what is written, so you have to change it. That is a very common trait on this forum.

HOW do you know John did not SEE them being sealed? He SAW the four Angels. He SAW another angel that was to do the sealing. He HEARD how many as he watched. Do you imagine he closed his eyes after he SAW? I don't imagine that! John did not see every little detail in these visions, or it would have taken YEARS to show him even the 7 years of the 70th week. So God filled in what he did not see with words.

Next, you cannot even believe what John HEARD. He heard 144,000.
How can 144,000, a countable number he HEARD, be compared to "a great multitude, which no man could number?" Even a 5th grader could tell us these are two separate groups of people, one is a small (by comparison) group easily numbered. The next group is multiplied millions, too large to count. One group is Hebrew men, the other group is unspecified except "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues." In other words NOT Jewish or Hebrew men. Again, these two groups cannot be the same. This group without a doubt includes women and children as in "PEOPLE."

And you are trying to tell us they are both the SAME GROUP. All you are doing is showing your inability to read, as in "John hasn't seen anything."

I totally AGREE with these scriptures. However, I will not IGNORE the Old Testament promises made to LITERAL and PHYSICAL Israel. Just because Paul has identified SPIRITUAL Israel does not mean a physical Israel no longer exists.

Perhaps you can explain to us WHY, when Jesus descends, His feet will touch down on the Mount of Olives. WHERE is this mount of Olives?

Next, just IMAGINE - if you cannot believe - that these are two groups of people and YOU are writing this: how would you have switched from a group being sealed on earth to a group seen in heaven, since you don't believe that "after this" is sufficient?

Many people put a different SPIN on this and say that the great crowd are the people that the 144,000 evangelized and got born again. NEITHER theory is correct. Both theories are human imagination gone wild, and not the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit.

Are you still trying to tell us that the maps are wrong, and there really isn't a PHYSICAL Israel in the Middle East?

LAMAD

 

[interpreter]

The 144,000 single male Jews sealed at the beginning of the great tribulation are the single male Jews who escaped the great tribulation of WW II by fleeing to the Holy Land. That's how many were available to the new Israeli military in 1948. 100,000 joined the IDF, while 44,000 were conscientious objectors (i.e, Ultra-Orthodox Jews).

 

[interpreter]

The earth is now ruled by the 4th horseman (or 4th Christian superpower to rule the earth, i.e., the US), founded by George Washington who rode a pale horse (named Blueskin). Our weapons bring hell and death to the enemies of Jesus.

 

[Revlog]

The request is "Explain the seals of Revelation". But before trying to understand the seals individually, it helps to understand what the seals (as a whole) are about. For that, you must understand the meaning of the seven-sealed scroll given to Jesus in Rev 5.

I believe that the entire context of chapter 4 and 5, as well as the fact the John wept when he (for a moment) thought that the scroll could not be opened, points to one thing:

The scroll (hence the opening of the seals) represents the great promise of scripture that the kingdom of God would come to the earth. Once all the seals have been opened, this great promise shall be fulfilled.

 

[ebedmelech]

WRONG! Is John not even allowed to change subjects? He always uses words like " After this.." And this is exactly what He writes after the sealing of the 144,000. IT IS A NEW SUBJECT. The great crowd around the throne is the just raptured CHURCH. They were raptured right where Paul said they would be, JUST BEFORE the signs of the Day of the Lord.

YOu simply cannot believe what is written, so you have to change it. That is a very common trait on this forum.

HOW do you know John did not SEE them being sealed? He SAW the four Angels. He SAW another angel that was to do the sealing. He HEARD how many as he watched. Do you imagine he closed his eyes after he SAW? I don't imagine that! John did not see every little detail in these visions, or it would have taken YEARS to show him even the 7 years of the 70th week. So God filled in what he did not see with words.

Next, you cannot even believe what John HEARD. He heard 144,000.
How can 144,000, a countable number he HEARD, be compared to "a great multitude, which no man could number?" Even a 5th grader could tell us these are two separate groups of people, one is a small (by comparison) group easily numbered. The next group is multiplied millions, too large to count. One group is Hebrew men, the other group is unspecified except "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues." In other words NOT Jewish or Hebrew men. Again, these two groups cannot be the same. This group without a doubt includes women and children as in "PEOPLE."

And you are trying to tell us they are both the SAME GROUP. All you are doing is showing your inability to read, as in "John hasn't seen anything."

I totally AGREE with these scriptures. However, I will not IGNORE the Old Testament promises made to LITERAL and PHYSICAL Israel. Just because Paul has identified SPIRITUAL Israel does not mean a physical Israel no longer exists.

Perhaps you can explain to us WHY, when Jesus descends, His feet will touch down on the Mount of Olives. WHERE is this mount of Olives?

Next, just IMAGINE - if you cannot believe - that these are two groups of people and YOU are writing this: how would you have switched from a group being sealed on earth to a group seen in heaven, since you don't believe that "after this" is sufficient?

Many people put a different SPIN on this and say that the great crowd are the people that the 144,000 evangelized and got born again. NEITHER theory is correct. Both theories are human imagination gone wild, and not the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit.

Are you still trying to tell us that the maps are wrong, and there really isn't a PHYSICAL Israel in the Middle East?

LAMAD

If you think so Lamad. We've done this enough. You'll see how wrong you are...so keep waiting on you rapture and the rest of your "erroneous eschatology".

I won't happen even close to what you think...and...what I'm telling you is what the apostles taught...The Jerusalem above IS FREE, she is out mother.

Paul has cleared this up in Galatians 4:21-31...but you keep thinking it's about the land Israel, and the people Israel...even though Paul clearly tells you IT'S NOT ABOUT THAT!

 

[ebedmelech]

WRONG! Is John not even allowed to change subjects? He always uses words like " After this.." And this is exactly what He writes after the sealing of the 144,000. IT IS A NEW SUBJECT. The great crowd around the throne is the just raptured CHURCH. They were raptured right where Paul said they would be, JUST BEFORE the signs of the Day of the Lord.

YOu simply cannot believe what is written, so you have to change it. That is a very common trait on this forum.
HOW do you know John did not SEE them being sealed? He SAW the four Angels. He SAW another angel that was to do the sealing. He HEARD how many as he watched. Do you imagine he closed his eyes after he SAW? I don't imagine that! John did not see every little detail in these visions, or it would have taken YEARS to show him even the 7 years of the 70th week. So God filled in what he did not see with words.

Next, you cannot even believe what John HEARD. He heard 144,000.
How can 144,000, a countable number he HEARD, be compared to "a great multitude, which no man could number?" Even a 5th grader could tell us these are two separate groups of people, one is a small (by comparison) group easily numbered. The next group is multiplied millions, too large to count. One group is Hebrew men, the other group is unspecified except "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues." In other words NOT Jewish or Hebrew men. Again, these two groups cannot be the same. This group without a doubt includes women and children as in "PEOPLE."

And you are trying to tell us they are both the SAME GROUP. All you are doing is showing your inability to read, as in "John hasn't seen anything."

I totally AGREE with these scriptures. However, I will not IGNORE the Old Testament promises made to LITERAL and PHYSICAL Israel. Just because Paul has identified SPIRITUAL Israel does not mean a physical Israel no longer exists.

Perhaps you can explain to us WHY, when Jesus descends, His feet will touch down on the Mount of Olives. WHERE is this mount of Olives?

Next, just IMAGINE - if you cannot believe - that these are two groups of people and YOU are writing this: how would you have switched from a group being sealed on earth to a group seen in heaven, since you don't believe that "after this" is sufficient?

Many people put a different SPIN on this and say that the great crowd are the people that the 144,000 evangelized and got born again. NEITHER theory is correct. Both theories are human imagination gone wild, and not the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit.

Are you still trying to tell us that the maps are wrong, and there really isn't a PHYSICAL Israel in the Middle East?

LAMAD

If you think so Lamad. We've done this enough. You'll see how wrong you are...so keep waiting on your rapture and the rest of your "erroneous eschatology".

I won't happen even close to what you think...and...what I'm telling you is what the apostles taught...The Jerusalem above IS FREE, she is out mother.

Paul has cleared this up in Galatians 4:21-31...but you keep thinking it's about the land Israel, and the people Israel...even though Paul clearly tells you IT'S NOT ABOUT THAT!

Wgen you think about being SEALED...what should ring in your head is what the scripture says about Christians being SEALED. However your eshatology is so "literal" it doesn't even think of all these verse telling you WHO is SEALED:

*2 Corinthians 1:22
22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
*Ephesians 1:13
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

*Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

That's who are sealed in Revelation 7...but keep looking for a literal 144,000. So it's YOU Lamad...but I won;t say you don't believe, only that what you believe is error!

 

[iamlamad]

The 144,000 single male Jews sealed at the beginning of the great tribulation are the single male Jews who escaped the great tribulation of WW II by fleeing to the Holy Land. That's how many were available to the new Israeli military in 1948. 100,000 joined the IDF, while 44,000 were conscientious objectors (i.e, Ultra-Orthodox Jews).

Perhaps that is the number available to the new army; but I doubt it. Even it by fate that was the number, it is NOT the 144,000 written in Rev. 7. Does the word FUTURE mean anything to you?

If you will note, these 144,000 were sealed FOR THEIR PROTECTION during the trumpet judgments, WHICH ARE STILL FUTURE.

If you will also note, at the same time John saw the sealing of the 144,000 HE ALSO SAW the great crowd too large to number in heaven. This crowd will be the just raptured (pretrib' raptured) BRIDE OF CHRIST. OF COURSE this event had not yet happened either.

Readers, there IS a future: we are now between the 5th and 6th seals, waiting for Jesus and Paul's rapture; after that will be the SIGNS for the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal.

LAMAD

 

[interpreter]

Perhaps that is the number available to the new army; but I doubt it. Even it by fate that was the number, it is NOT the 144,000 written in Rev. 7. Does the word FUTURE mean anything to you?

If you will note, these 144,000 were sealed FOR THEIR PROTECTION during the trumpet judgments, WHICH ARE STILL FUTURE.

If you will also note, at the same time John saw the sealing of the 144,000 HE ALSO SAW the great crowd too large to number in heaven. This crowd will be the just raptured (pretrib' raptured) BRIDE OF CHRIST. OF COURSE this event had not yet happened either.

Readers, there IS a future: we are now between the 5th and 6th seals, waiting for Jesus and Paul's rapture; after that will be the SIGNS for the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal.

LAMAD

You futurists are a hoot. The trumpet prophesies, which have to do with the great tribulation of WW II, have been fulfilled. We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues, such as skin cancer, red tides, and global warming. That means all previous chapters have been fulfilled.

 

[Purge187]

I haven't had the chance to sift through the whole thread yet. Does anyone find merit in the idea that the first few seals are the wrath of man unleashed and not the wrath of God/The Lamb?

 

[iamlamad]

You futurists are a hoot. The trumpet prophesies, which have to do with the great tribulation of WW II, have been fulfilled. We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues, such as skin cancer, red tides, and global warming. That means all previous chapters have been fulfilled.

You still are lost in dreamland. NOTHING about the trumpets fits ANYTHING concerning any world war up to date. Please read carefully:

Webster on FUTURE:
1: that is to be; specifically : existing after death

2: of, relating to, or constituting a verb tense expressive of time yet to come

3: existing or occurring at a later time


Free dictionary:
1. The indefinite time yet to come: will try to do better in the future.
2. Something that will happen in time to come: "The future comes apace" (Shakespeare).

Online dictionary:
1. time that is to be or come hereafter.
2. Smething that will exist or happen in time to come: "The future is rooted in the past."
3. a condition, especially of success or failure, to come: "Some people believe a gypsy can tell you your future."

MOST of the book of Revelation is speaking of the FUTURE.

LAMAD

 

[interpreter]

You still are lost in dreamland. NOTHING about the trumpets fits ANYTHING concerning any world war up to date. Please read carefully:

Webster on FUTURE:
1: that is to be; specifically : existing after death

2: of, relating to, or constituting a verb tense expressive of time yet to come

3: existing or occurring at a later time


Free dictionary:
1. The indefinite time yet to come: will try to do better in the future.
2. Something that will happen in time to come: "The future comes apace" (Shakespeare).

Online dictionary:
1. time that is to be or come hereafter.
2. Smething that will exist or happen in time to come: "The future is rooted in the past."
3. a condition, especially of success or failure, to come: "Some people believe a gypsy can tell you your future."

MOST of the book of Revelation is speaking of the FUTURE.

LAMAD

I guarantee that the trumpet prophecies have been fulfilled. For example, on D-Day, close to 200 million horses under the hood were unleashed against Hitler the antichrist and the third of the earth aligned with him. The horses were prepared, or manufactured, by Great Britain, Australia, Canada and the US, represented by the four angels.

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 256:

MOST of the book of Revelation is speaking of the FUTURE.

That's right.

Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are future because they are about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). And just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.

The future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. After this war, there will be a terrible series of natural disasters historically unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another erupting volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could destroy the eastern seaboard of the U.S.

If such a tsunami occurs, it could cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b). Sometime after that, weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit of the earth to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). The world could see them as "aliens" who had been hibernating for thousands of years in a cavern deep underground. The locust-like beings won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

After that, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could (falsely) say that they're YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The 4 fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind completely desperate before its complete takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when the army starts killing 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought on mankind. For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the Prime Minister of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

(And all of this will be part of only the first half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.)

It's at this point that Lucifer and his fallen angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in gigantic, magnificent golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars", Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon. The "Champ de Mars" is the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. After landing there, Lucifer, a literal 7-headed dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), could emerge in great splendor and command his angels to capture the army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders, who could then pretend to defect from serving YHWH to serving Lucifer. Lucifer could then confirm that he has come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", called upon him (like in an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even YHWH God's main army.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer and the Antichrist and a speaking (possibly android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a (possibly scarification) mark of the Antichrist either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:16-18). After Lucifer and the Antichrist have ruled the world for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send 7 vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16).

Near the end of the 7 vials, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) to battle against YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon as a staging area, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:2-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend bodily from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be bodily resurrected (if dead) or physically changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21) and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years are over, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

 

[Bible2]

interpreter said in post 257:

For example, on D-Day, close to 200 million horses under the hood were unleashed against Hitler the antichrist and the third of the earth aligned with him.

Regarding "Hitler the antichrist", any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in the future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

Hitler didn't fulfill the detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and Revelation 20:4. Also, Hitler didn't fulfill other prophecies regarding the Antichrist (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, Daniel 11:31,36; cf. Matthew 24:15). The detailed prophecies regarding the Antichrist, just as the rest of the tribulation prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, have never been fulfilled.

 

[mark kennedy]

I haven't had the chance to sift through the whole thread yet. Does anyone find merit in the idea that the first few seals are the wrath of man unleashed and not the wrath of God/The Lamb?

Absolutely! That's the first genuine insight I've seen in this forum, let alone this thread. Consider this, one of the worst things God can do is to turn you over to your sin, case in point, Nebuchadnezzar:

Daniel 4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.​

He had shown signs of having an inflated opinion of himself, in this case I don't think God struck him with insanity, I think God just let it have him. There is actually an important point here:

Rev. 6:2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.​

The Lamb opens the first seal and out pops a Conqueror, I think I know what's going on there. This is judgment, God turning us over to our collective rebellion and the insanity that is perdition. What happens at the opening of the next three seals is pure, undiluted sin on a rampage, that's why the martyrs are revealed in the fifth seal. The opening of the sixth is God's wrath.

This is the thing, they go from cowering in caves to this in the course of the book:

And the ten horns which thou saw are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. (Rev. 17:12-15)​

That sea the Beast from the Land is rising out of is people who think they can win this fight. I think the Devil and the Antichrist's worst deception is they convince the children of perdition that they can win. I think the Devil throughout eternity will be burning in the lake of fire thinking, one day I will get out of here and when I do...

Oh yea, I really do think the first three seals are the wrath of man. It's refreshing to see someone actually make that insight.

Grace and peace,
Mark