Discussion Ex-Charismatics, thoughts on what this means and on their ideas.

GoldenKingGaze

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This thread is about the concept of "ex-charismatic" or "post charismatic". I am thinking about what it means. What errors are in it, what, sensitivity and short sightedness. Also about people who chose to be post charismatic because of abuses.

Ex-charismatic and post charismatic can mean that a person has become unhappy with their charismatic church culture, but don't look beyond what they dislike. There must be a hundred thousand charismatic churches. So people disillusioned are giving up easily. For others the abuse could be intense, as with me, and if my commitment was weak, I'd have left Pentecostalism.

Some people don't like the character of their pastor or fellows. Some don't like the charismatic gifts and anointings. The format of the Pentecosatal and charismatic churches to them is unfulfilling or irrational or unbiblical... preaching lacks academic depth.

Some don't like a part of the charismatic service, like quaking, falling, waves of love, or regular infilling with the Spirit's power. Others find the love feasts don't really make their fellows warm. Some find the prophecy, is out there, or is not fulfilled fast and easy enough.

For others the promise does not come through.
For others still, they church asks for money too much.

I am interested in what charismatic Christians think. Also in the ideas that come from these fellows.
 

Gregory Thompson

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I like charismatic worship and congregations, but i tend to feel a rot in my soul if I hear teachings that say pay tithes and get your money back guaranteed or about the whole Israel hoopla. It kinda works well when it's just about Jesus.
 
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jiminpa

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I can't speak for all Charismatics, but I think that cessation in any of it's forms is leaning on our own understanding and experiences and placing them superior to scripture. The catalyst is not so important to me. Cessation is unbelief. It is calling God a liar, and an evil father. To try to dictate to God how much of His Spirit we will accept is poor servanthood at best, and honestly, how can one limit his acceptance of God's Spirit and somehow claim to abide in Him and He in you.
 
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Razare

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like quaking

Something I recently learned from another charismatic, and I had suspected this myself.

When people quake at meetings, that's basically a demon manifesting but also it's manifesting because God is fighting it off of them.

Earthquakes for a NT believer, are outlined in scripture:

Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken. At once all the prison doors flew open, and everyone's chains came loose. - Acts 16:26

Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus." After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly. - Acts 4

So Earthquakes are a type of deliverance. Boldness came in Acts 4 after they prayed... but the boldness came because they were delivered from fears and gave them realization of the faith they had already been given.

And in Acts 16, the Earthquake was physical and spiritual deliverance. Notice in Acts 16, none of the prisoners left the prison. They would rather stay in the presence of God.

What happens in the spirit, is bondages get attached to people in their souls and bodies. When they get around the Holy Ghost, they will quake because the Holy Spirit is rattling the bars of their prison to break them free.

So when people say, "That's demons!" They are sort of right. But they are also wrong. The Holy Spirit is doing the quaking to free them of demonic oppression. Yes, it happens because they're oppressed in some way by fear or something else, but it is a deliverance it produces.

-------------------

As for the "prosperity gospel" ... Oh man!!! I am into that! I got revelation from God on it. It makes me want to dance.

If you heard me preach on it, you would beg people to take your money as a tithe. There are 2 tithes in scripture, the Levitical Tithe, and then Melchizedek Tithe.

The Levite Tithe is obligatory. You do it, or you are robbing God. You do it to esteem yourself, to show that you are a good person when you are not a good person. And if you fail to do it, you are cursed for being a thief. If you do it, you are blessed, but be wary of pride because then you will be humbled.

The Melchizedek Tithe is by faith! It is the Priesthood of Jesus Christ. It is like handing money to Jesus's Ministry. The Priesthood of Melchizedek is superior and lasts forever. The priesthood of the law, only ever existed by first there being the priesthood of Melchizedek.

Whoever Melchizedek was, that person would have been in the same priesthood as Jesus. This means!!! This means, he would have known of the atonement, and received that by faith. Some teach it was Jesus himself, and this makes sense. Yet if it was not Jesus, then it was a person who operated in the power of the NT church, it's atonement and covenant, ages before it happened, because a Melchizedek priest is sinless before God and Holy, and perfect. They are recognized by God as Jesus Christ, his Son, just as we are in Jesus we are also of the Melchizedek priesthood. Any Christian can accept a tithe by this priesthood. And when you do it under this priesthood in faith, the person giving that tithe is blessed beyond measure.

But I have revelation because I was poor and God made me rich.
 
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jiminpa

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Or maybe quaking and shaking is different at different times. Maybe sometimes it is a reaction to being overwhelmed by God, and maybe others it's demons, and maybe others God is being God and just not asking for our approval of how He does things.
 
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robert skynner

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Why do we insist on holding God accountable to us? That's not how it works.


Sorry, but what do you mean by this? As for me I gave up on church attendance years ago, I see no love, no fidelity to Christ in local Churches, as far as I'm concerned its almost all fake and the Charismatic pastors are ususally just manipulators who are after your money.
 
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Biblicist

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What is "cessationism" I don't find this word in the Bible. As for Charismatics, they don't even believe that God is working miracles as in the book of Acts today! It's a simple money scam, you pay them money and they say smooth words, but the Charismatic / evangelical movement is horrific in its apostasy from the gospel, the constant fornication in so many fellowships and the greed for money of so many preachers. Look I won't have any issue with a pastor who goes into a children's hopsital and heals every child, or who visits a morgue and raises all the dead, but this simply isn't happening today, the worst scam artists are evangelical Christians and babbling in baby-talk isn't duplicating the book of Acts, it's a con and the (non-miraculous) gifts which people claim today such as baby talk and falling over, are not the same as those MIRACULOUS gifts in the Bible.
Robert, it should be pointed out to you that forum rules do not permit atheists to post on a Christian forum, you should probably spend a few months observing and not commenting as it can be a tough thing for anyone who does not have the Holy Spirit within them to understand that things of God.
 
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Victor E.

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Something I recently learned from another charismatic, and I had suspected this myself.

When people quake at meetings, that's basically a demon manifesting but also it's manifesting because God is fighting it off of them.

Earthquakes for a NT believer, are outlined in scripture:

Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken. At once all the prison doors flew open, and everyone's chains came loose. - Acts 16:26

Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus." After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly. - Acts 4

So Earthquakes are a type of deliverance. Boldness came in Acts 4 after they prayed... but the boldness came because they were delivered from fears and gave them realization of the faith they had already been given.

And in Acts 16, the Earthquake was physical and spiritual deliverance. Notice in Acts 16, none of the prisoners left the prison. They would rather stay in the presence of God.

What happens in the spirit, is bondages get attached to people in their souls and bodies. When they get around the Holy Ghost, they will quake because the Holy Spirit is rattling the bars of their prison to break them free.

So when people say, "That's demons!" They are sort of right. But they are also wrong. The Holy Spirit is doing the quaking to free them of demonic oppression. Yes, it happens because they're oppressed in some way by fear or something else, but it is a deliverance it produces.

-------------------

As for the "prosperity gospel" ... Oh man!!! I am into that! I got revelation from God on it. It makes me want to dance.

If you heard me preach on it, you would beg people to take your money as a tithe. There are 2 tithes in scripture, the Levitical Tithe, and then Melchizedek Tithe.

The Levite Tithe is obligatory. You do it, or you are robbing God. You do it to esteem yourself, to show that you are a good person when you are not a good person. And if you fail to do it, you are cursed for being a thief. If you do it, you are blessed, but be wary of pride because then you will be humbled.

The Melchizedek Tithe is by faith! It is the Priesthood of Jesus Christ. It is like handing money to Jesus's Ministry. The Priesthood of Melchizedek is superior and lasts forever. The priesthood of the law, only ever existed by first there being the priesthood of Melchizedek.

Whoever Melchizedek was, that person would have been in the same priesthood as Jesus. This means!!! This means, he would have known of the atonement, and received that by faith. Some teach it was Jesus himself, and this makes sense. Yet if it was not Jesus, then it was a person who operated in the power of the NT church, it's atonement and covenant, ages before it happened, because a Melchizedek priest is sinless before God and Holy, and perfect. They are recognized by God as Jesus Christ, his Son, just as we are in Jesus we are also of the Melchizedek priesthood. Any Christian can accept a tithe by this priesthood. And when you do it under this priesthood in faith, the person giving that tithe is blessed beyond measure.

But I have revelation because I was poor and God made me rich.

So that is fire from heaven? What a strange fire. There are strange happenings going on in the charismatic left-wing that is blatantly not Scriptural. Perhaps people are worried about blaspheming the Holy Spirit. It's that fear, that prevents leaders from performing their ministry related duties. Thoughts?

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." John 14:26

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23


"As the day of His ascension approached, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. He sent messengers on ahead, who went into a village of the Samaritans to make arrangements for Him. But the people there refused to welcome Him, because He was heading for Jerusalem.

When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do You want us to call down fire from heaven to consume them?”

But Jesus turned and rebuked them, and they went on to another village." Luke 9:51-55

1 Corinthians 14:26-40- God is not of confusion, but of peace. This is the Lord's command for orderly worship.

Demonic possession is simply not the same as demonic oppression. They are entirely on different levels. Although rarely do I find someone who actually has field experience on the topic. Perhaps sometimes we can get lazy from lack of exposure. Again, I want to hear thoughts. I might learn something valuable here.

 
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GoldenKingGaze

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So that is fire from heaven? What a strange fire. There are strange happenings going on in the charismatic left-wing that is blatantly not Scriptural. Perhaps people are worried about blaspheming the Holy Spirit. It's that fear, that prevents leaders from performing their ministry related duties. Thoughts?

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." John 14:26

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23


"As the day of His ascension approached, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. He sent messengers on ahead, who went into a village of the Samaritans to make arrangements for Him. But the people there refused to welcome Him, because He was heading for Jerusalem.

When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do You want us to call down fire from heaven to consume them?”

But Jesus turned and rebuked them, and they went on to another village." Luke 9:51-55

1 Corinthians 14:26-40- God is not of confusion, but of peace. This is the Lord's command for orderly worship.

Demonic possession is simply not the same as demonic oppression. They are entirely on different levels. Although rarely do I find someone who actually has field experience on the topic. Perhaps sometimes we can get lazy from lack of exposure. Again, I want to hear thoughts. I might learn something valuable here.
John asked for fire from Heaven to destroy, but Jesus wish was that the world was already on fire in the Gospel.

There are fringe groups that are focused on as a basis to criticize revivals like Toronto, and NY, even Wesley... But the headship of those are better defended.

Love, joy, peace... are the fruit of being born again, and there is more, you can ask for healing, knowledge, love as in Rom 5:5 and oil, the blood of Jesus, fire, living water, bread of life. They produce salt, testifying.
 
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Roberts Liardon made a good point. He says that it is better to have wild fire than no fire at all. The anointing of God to heal the sick, cast out demons, preach the good news of the Gospel is not confined to the Pentecostal or Charismatic movements. It is the Bible, and to deny that these things should be happening today is disobedience to the command of Christ to heal the sick, cast out demons, and preach the good news. This is also part of Christ's commission in Mark 16.
We have the treasure in earthen vessels. If we look to man instead of Christ, we are going to be disillusioned. Churches are not perfect. They are hospitals for sick people. If a church is caught up with judgmentalism, gossip and unloving practices, then that is the fault of the people, not of Christ. If you are part of a dead church like that, leave it and find one that has the life of Christ flowing in it. Find a church that promotes salvation, healing and deliverance. That would be better for you than for you to remain in a dead church and be consumed with criticism and bitterness. We need a lot more of looking to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. Our church is not the author and finisher of our faith. If we base our faith on our church and its leadership then we will fall into discouragement and despair. I left the Charismatic church in 1978 because I looked at the church instead of keeping my eyes on Christ. I saw the unloving ways and the gossip, plus the effects of that demonic shepherding/discipleship doctrine. I walked out and went to a traditional church, and have been in traditional churches ever since. Now I am the leader of a traditional church, and God is telling me to promote the gifts of the Spirit, miraculous healing and salvation so that my church is no longer like a synagogue but an alive Bible believing church that is a light to the community. I can walk away from the Charismatic, but I can't get the Charismatic out of my heart, because the core of it comes from the anointing of Christ and the desire to follow what He commanded of me.

My advice to you if you are seeing the hypocrisy and deadness in your church is to stop compromising with it and speak out for Christ. Pray and read the Scriptures and ask the Lord to give you a holy boldness to speak out for Christ in that place. So what if they kick you out? Jesus said that would throw you out of their synagogues! You can go on your way rejoicing, and God will find you another group of people who are Christlike and who will love and accept you. Stand in the middle of your church auditorium (maybe while no one else is there for your safety's sake) and cast out the demons of criticism, judgmentalism, gossiping, and religion, and plead for the Holy Spirit to fill that place so that people will be turned to Christ in revival. You will find that your depression and discouragement will vanish and the joy of the Lord will come back to you.
 
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robert skynner

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The anointing of God to heal the sick, cast out demons, preach the good news of the Gospel is not confined to the Pentecostal or Charismatic movements. It is the Bible, and to deny that these things should be happening today is disobedience to the command of Christ to heal the sick, cast out demons, and preach the good news. This is also part of Christ's commission in Mark 16.



"these signs will follow those who have believed." (Mk 16:17, NASV).


Oscarr, the word ‘believe’ or ‘have believed’ (NASV) at Mark 16:17 is an aorist participle, which can only refer to the office of the 12 apostles, who numbered eleven at that particular moment! A contrast in these verses is also made between two groups of believers, firstly the singular ‘he’ at Mark 16:16 who will come to believe, with the plural ‘them’ of verses 14, 16 and 20. In verse 17 John quoting Christ does not use two future tenses, to imply that these miraculous gifts will continue for the entire church age even into our own day. If he had wished to imply this, then he would have said: ‘these signs will follow those who WILL believe.’ But instead, the linking of the aorist participle ‘have believed’ with the future tense; ‘will follow,’ implies that those who’ll work these miracles, will receive their faith before they come exercise these miraculous gifts. This limits the recipients to the apostles but not to the 3,000 who came to faith after the exercise of the mighty spiritual gifts at Acts 2:41.


This interpretation is confirmed in Acts chapter two, where we read that only the 12 apostles spoke in tongues. The 3,000 men who were converted on this day (Acts 2:41), did not work any miracles. Because Acts 2:43 says that these signs were done by the apostles. Now obviously later on in the book of Acts, other people also worked miracles, through the laying on of the apostles hands, and sometimes God will occasionally even heal or even work a miracle today. Elsewhere in Acts chapters 10, 19 and possible 8, other people also spoke in “other languages.” But this was hardly a common event, as Acts 19 is some twenty years after Pentecost, and 2 or 3 occurrences of tongues over a 20 year period, hardly describes a common Christian activity. Now if Jesus had wished to indicate to us today, that the 3,000 who were saved on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41) would also come to speak in tongues, then he would have used two future tenses in his prophecy at Mark 16:17: ‘these signs WILL follow those who WILL believe.’


Because nobody today, not even Oscarr can meet the apostolic requirements of having seen the risen Christ (Acts 1:22). This is why Paul saw the risen Christ “last of all,” (1st Corinthians 15:8), and the office of the 12 ceased with him. With this apostles office closed, God is not today confirming the oral word with the sign gifts of Mark 16:17-18. But if he were we would not have an AID’s crisis, for the Apostles could heal all who came to them (Acts 5:16). This inability to duplicate the book of Acts in our day, and especially the miraculous sign gifts of Mark 16:17-18, proves that today’s apostles are rather undermining the finished authority of Scripture. Christianity is insanity! The most abusive people I've ever met are Christians, the papers here in the UK are full of stories of endless abuse and crimes committed by religious people. BE WARNED.
 
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robert skynner

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Robert, it should be pointed out to you that forum rules do not permit atheists to post on a Christian forum, you should probably spend a few months observing and not commenting as it can be a tough thing for anyone who does not have the Holy Spirit within them to understand that things of God.

I am a humanist - like Erasmus! I never said I am an atheist, kindly don't misrepresent me. Also who or what gives you the right to dogmatically pontificate on who does or who does no have the Holy Spirit within them?
 
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robert skynner

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Robert, it should be pointed out to you that forum rules do not permit atheists to post on a Christian forum, you should probably spend a few months observing and not commenting as it can be a tough thing for anyone who does not have the Holy Spirit within them to understand that things of God.

I am looking to debate a pro-tither, will you debate me one on one on tithing if you are in favour of tithing?
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Jesus had 500 followers before He died, and with Paul Andronicus and Junias there were at least 15 apostles. Timothy and Apollos would have used the gifts which were described to the Corinthians who were Greeks.

The gifts are useful until Christ returns and they become like candles at midday, so the tongues need stop so we listen.

Christians can be abusive, but that is sin, or they are not true converts or are proud and fell away but do not admit to it. Jesus taught that He was called Beelzebub, and so "they" not Jews, will do the same against latter believers.

Denomination specific forums like Messianic Jews or Catholic... are really for such people.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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I am looking to debate a pro-tither, will you debate me one on one on tithing if you are in favour of tithing?
Tithing debates could be conducted in Christian philosophy and ethics. Or in the debate section.
 
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"these signs will follow those who have believed." (Mk 16:17, NASV).


Oscarr, the word ‘believe’ or ‘have believed’ (NASV) at Mark 16:17 is an aorist participle, which can only refer to the office of the 12 apostles, who numbered eleven at that particular moment! A contrast in these verses is also made between two groups of believers, firstly the singular ‘he’ at Mark 16:16 who will come to believe, with the plural ‘them’ of verses 14, 16 and 20. In verse 17 John quoting Christ does not use two future tenses, to imply that these miraculous gifts will continue for the entire church age even into our own day. If he had wished to imply this, then he would have said: ‘these signs will follow those who WILL believe.’ But instead, the linking of the aorist participle ‘have believed’ with the future tense; ‘will follow,’ implies that those who’ll work these miracles, will receive their faith before they come exercise these miraculous gifts. This limits the recipients to the apostles but not to the 3,000 who came to faith after the exercise of the mighty spiritual gifts at Acts 2:41.


This interpretation is confirmed in Acts chapter two, where we read that only the 12 apostles spoke in tongues. The 3,000 men who were converted on this day (Acts 2:41), did not work any miracles. Because Acts 2:43 says that these signs were done by the apostles. Now obviously later on in the book of Acts, other people also worked miracles, through the laying on of the apostles hands, and sometimes God will occasionally even heal or even work a miracle today. Elsewhere in Acts chapters 10, 19 and possible 8, other people also spoke in “other languages.” But this was hardly a common event, as Acts 19 is some twenty years after Pentecost, and 2 or 3 occurrences of tongues over a 20 year period, hardly describes a common Christian activity. Now if Jesus had wished to indicate to us today, that the 3,000 who were saved on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41) would also come to speak in tongues, then he would have used two future tenses in his prophecy at Mark 16:17: ‘these signs WILL follow those who WILL believe.’


Because nobody today, not even Oscarr can meet the apostolic requirements of having seen the risen Christ (Acts 1:22). This is why Paul saw the risen Christ “last of all,” (1st Corinthians 15:8), and the office of the 12 ceased with him. With this apostles office closed, God is not today confirming the oral word with the sign gifts of Mark 16:17-18. But if he were we would not have an AID’s crisis, for the Apostles could heal all who came to them (Acts 5:16). This inability to duplicate the book of Acts in our day, and especially the miraculous sign gifts of Mark 16:17-18, proves that today’s apostles are rather undermining the finished authority of Scripture. Christianity is insanity! The most abusive people I've ever met are Christians, the papers here in the UK are full of stories of endless abuse and crimes committed by religious people. BE WARNED.


You are quite free to believe what you have written. It is quite true that the Church has been its worst enemy about how it has gone about advertising the Christian faith. From the 5th Century through to Martin Luther the church was run by people who were controlled by religious demons. Apart from a few exceptions, 75 of our churches are still controlled by religious spirits. This is why we see so many problems associated with churches today. If you want to allow those religious demons to control your thinking about the church and about the modern day application of the gifts of the Spirit, then you are free to do so. But I will tell you this: You will never see any miracles or use any of the gifts of the Spirit while you continue in that belief. But if you are satisfied with religious rituals and ceremonies, three hymns and a sermon every Sunday, then continue as you are. I hope that Jesus will accept your explanation when you get to face Him in person one day and He asks you why you never used the supernatural resources He offered you in this life.
 
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