Evolutionary morality - or why anything goes, isn't theoretically sound

Gottservant

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Hi there,

So I've given a lot of thought to Evolution, been told I don't understand the theory, been told I am looking for things that aren't there (like morality), been told you don't have to really believe Evolution - it just is -, been told it always happens, even though there's no real evidence that it does and I've come to the conclusion that there is in fact a moral backbone to the theory, it's just that no one has fleshed it out. So here goes.

You've heard of breaking the odds, right? Or defying the odds? Where you have a certain probability of success and its not very high, but you try and you succeed and then you share the spoils with others? That's sort of the model of morality that I think Evolution espouses. The reason you don't see it fleshed out is that the arrogance of most people that believe Evolution is that they break the odds all the time, that just being human is a kind of proof that the odds have been broken and will be broken again. This arrogance I think, is what gets in the way, since if you think about what it means to break the odds, there is actually a reason to stay morally motivated.

For one thing, no one breaks the odds without first sitting down and working out their best trajectory, right? I mean Jesus said this "if you are going to build a tower or go to war, you think about it first" (something like that). The reason for this is simple, there are some things that no matter how good you think you are, you just won't be able to do it, and the more that you spend time and effort trying to conquer it, the less energy you'll have for anything else. This is breaking the odds, sitting down and calculating the cost of each alternative and beginning a trial and error process of conquest, once you know that something is surmountable. Once you start, it doesn't happen at any particular rate, and in fact the more help you can get the better.

Getting help is in fact key, because if you've broken the odds, chances are, someone else will thankyou for the time its taken to calculate that victory can be had in some degree if they join in. Now, there's a payoff here, in that if you break the odds down completely, other parties may know too much, but on the other hand, you want their trust, so once again, you break the odds and you tell them as much as they can: you have their confidence, and so once again you are more likely to succeed. This is reflected in the Good Samaritan story, I think, although what you see is someone foreseeing the good that another may do, down the track and reaching out for it ahead of time.

Once you have help, the odds are still largely stacked against you, if not now then in eternity, so once again you need to do some calculations: who has the best strength, who will most likely survive, when will you most likely get victory. This takes cunning, since you don't know what particular way breaking the odds will work out for you, how many strategies you will need, how much determination you will have to have, anything that will give you the edge is much needed, since you may indeed have to keep restrategizing right to the end. So it is that strategies like the equal payment of the landowner to everyone working on the land come to the fore, since if everyone is getting the same pay, you are most able to foresee a strategy that will benefit everyone.

So far so good right? Right so it is you come to the final stage where you actually defy the odds, this is where the morality of the whole thing of breaking the odds comes to the fore, since once you have won the day, there is no real reason to share the spoils with anyone, is there? But hang on, so far all you've done is break the odds at each successive stage, wouldn't it make sense to defy the odds and break them once again. So it is that you share the spoils, and everyone comes to see the challenge you faced, both now and as you once did: a win for everyone. So like the tree that bears no fruit, you have received the benefit of experience and grown fruit after all, because someone foresaw that your victory was shallow, if you did not see it through and they dug around you and fertilized you and now you are producing fruit by sharing your victory with others, allowing you to break the odds once and for all, and go on to defy the odds altogether for all time. Hooray.

Now, all of this is moral, right? And what is the one difference between what I presented at what Evolution would present? That it happens over generations. But wait a minute, you say, what was that business of someone foreseeing the victory was shallow? That's God: in this picture, God is like the fulfilment of every odd broken for us and He is the one that is there in the beginning saying "breaking these odds is possible, I have done it and am with you" He is the one that is there when you are getting help, saying "I see the victory in these others also, together you will multiply your chances of success", He is the one that is there when you are wondering how you will keep everyone focussed saying "pay everyone the same and they will know with one accord what to expect, then you can harness the power of your solidarity with me", God is there! God is at the end saying "now you have won, but what will you do with your victory, do you not need to share it somehow?" because He has faced the end Himself and knows to share with others that the fruit of the victory itself may be multiplied, thus even God defies the odds.

Yes, you are now thinking, but Evolution says we have to lose. Rubbish! Do you not know that a semblence of everything you believe is in your seed? Do you not know that foreknowing what you seed will inherit enables you to break the odds ahead of time? Do you not know that even as you believe, your seed believes that you believe, believing that it believes even as you believe, thus making everything you believe every second progressively more in tune with the odds you are trying to break? The odds are in your favour! If only you will work together!

So it is from this you have a whole list of do's and don'ts that either help or hinder breaking the odds: the makings of morality. Do forsee strength in others and you will gain a multiplier. Do forsee agreement between people and you will gain a multiplier. Do share the spoils once you get them and you will gain a multiplier. Do stick to the plan you first start with and you will gain a multiplier. Enough multipliers will give you the victory! Don't refuse to sit down and weigh the consequences. Don't pass over the value of others. Don't cheat others their pay. Don't keep all the rewards to yourself. All moral rules: all from just determining to break the odds (consistently).

So what is Evolution saying about all this? Well, you don't need to think about the past: you might as well have been a monkey (you weren't but Evolution likes to move on from the past by joking that you could have been), so your time is best spent trying to break the odds; mutation will help you break the odds, at least temporarily (don't do it too much or you will get cancer or worse); the future is completely dependent on your commitment now, but that doesn't mean the outcome will be predictably the same as everybody else's (if you can harness the differences in others soon enough that you are not all expecting the same thing by the time you start working together), in other words keep breaking the odds and things will change; the ones with the most multipliers will have the most say in future, survival of the fittest (but also ultimatley growth of the most cooperative, in the end), collect every multiplier you can and breaking the odds will be easier. Phew! Not exactly as helpful as it could be, but in a way, exactly what you need to hear, almost too much so really.

So basically, I don't know, there is more than enough room to give Evolution a moral dimension if you really want to.

Discuss.:preach::D
 
U

Ursus scientia

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I don't know anyone who takes their morality from evolution. It'd be like taking your morality from germ theory or the theory of gravity.

Evolution doesn't describe moral behaviour, it describes how life diversifies. : P

I get my morality from my empathy and the consequences of my actions. Not from allele frequency, meiosis and the copy error rate of DNA Polymerase.
 
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gluadys

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Hi there,


So what is Evolution saying about all this?

Well, basically, nothing.
You have put a lot of thought into this and it may have merit in another context.
But it is simply not about evolution no matter how hard you try to pin that label on it.
 
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Gottservant

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I don't know anyone who takes their morality from evolution. It'd be like taking your morality from germ theory or the theory of gravity.

Evolution doesn't describe moral behaviour, it describes how life diversifies. : P

I get my morality from my empathy and the consequences of my actions. Not from allele frequency, meiosis and the copy error rate of DNA Polymerase.

Morality is not limited by subject.

If I want to discuss morality in the context of Evolution I can.

Suggesting otherwise would be to pointlessly oppress me.
 
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Gottservant

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Well, basically, nothing.
You have put a lot of thought into this and it may have merit in another context.
But it is simply not about evolution no matter how hard you try to pin that label on it.

I said "Evolution takes as its moral standard the odds of survival, the Word of God applies to this" and showed how

You said "meh" and showed nothing.

I'm sorry but I win the argument.
 
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Gottservant

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you may be interested in this thread. It's nearing 1000 posts, so enjoy......



http://www.christianforums.com/t7787967/



Papias

Interesting link, but it is clearly outdated, old models of morality such a social pact and greater good, no longer apply in this posthuman world, the morality of Evolution is clearly odds of success and failure nothing more, nothing less

it has given me food for thought though
 
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juvenissun

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Interesting link, but it is clearly outdated, old models of morality such a social pact and greater good, no longer apply in this posthuman world, the morality of Evolution is clearly odds of success and failure nothing more, nothing less

it has given me food for thought though

The faith of evolution has everything to do with human morality.

Humanistic morality = the best ways of living
Principle of evolution = the best way of surviving
The best way of living = the best way of surviving
Principle of evolution = humanistic morality.

example:

Competition of food = I do not share my food with you when it is not enough.
 
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gluadys

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I said "Evolution takes as its moral standard the odds of survival, the Word of God applies to this" and showed how

And that is wrong. Evolution is a biological process. It takes no moral standard at all. One might just as credibly say "Digestion takes as its moral standard...." or "The formation of tooth enamel takes as its moral standard...."
See how silly that sounds?
 
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juvenissun

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And that is wrong. Evolution is a biological process. It takes no moral standard at all. One might just as credibly say "Digestion takes as its moral standard...." or "The formation of tooth enamel takes as its moral standard...."
See how silly that sounds?

You forgot the human intelligence.

Humans have the idea of evolution.
Evolution is a sequence of actions.
Humans make interpretations to the actions and think they are good and true.
Then humans (naturally) apply the interpretations to their own action.

The idea of evolution is innocent. Human is the guilty party.
 
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gluadys

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The faith of evolution has everything to do with human morality.

Humanistic morality = the best ways of living
Principle of evolution = the best way of surviving
The best way of living = the best way of surviving
Principle of evolution = humanistic morality.

example:

Competition of food = I do not share my food with you when it is not enough.


Did you know that Richard Dawkins wrote The Selfish Gene to explain why animals are often not selfish?

You are assuming that selfish genes benefit from an organism's selfish behaviour. But often selfish genes benefit more from an organism's unselfish behaviour.

Consider the way many parents (especially birds and mammals) care for their young. Why do mamma and poppa bird work so hard to feed their chicks? Plenty of animals don't look after their young (many fish, worms, ,insects, etc.) Why not be selfish, push the nestlings out and make them fend for themselves?

Well, genes may be selfish, but one thing about them: they don't care whose body they are in. Since the chicks all have copies of the genes of their parents, it makes sense to the selfish genes to have parents take good care of their young. That ensures the survival of the genes into the next generation.

Consider as well that the chicks are siblings to each other. Since they all inherited genes from the same parents, they have mostly the same genes as each other.

So selfish genes don't care which siblings survive as long as the genes survive in as many bodies as possible. If one chick gets all the food and won't share, only that chick will survive. But if they share their food, then likely four or five will survive, and that is good news for selfish genes.

Another way that selfish genes encourage unselfish behaviour is "tit for tat". In many animal groups, care is not limited only to close kin. It makes sense for one member of the group to share in the expectation that others will share as well. Observers have noted that when an individual cheats by taking what is offered but never offering anything in return, the rest of the group takes notice and stops sharing with that one. Selfish genes benefit when organisms do share, because it means more organisms (and so more genes) survive.

You forgot the human intelligence.

Humans have the idea of evolution.
Evolution is a sequence of actions.
Humans make interpretations to the actions and think they are good and true.
Then humans (naturally) apply the interpretations to their own action.

The idea of evolution is innocent. Human is the guilty party.


I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Maybe I didn't evolve enough intelligence. In any case, evolution is not a sequence of human actions, no matter how they interpret it.
 
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juvenissun

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Did you know that Richard Dawkins wrote The Selfish Gene to explain why animals are often not selfish?

You are assuming that selfish genes benefit from an organism's selfish behaviour. But often selfish genes benefit more from an organism's unselfish behaviour.

Consider the way many parents (especially birds and mammals) care for their young. Why do mamma and poppa bird work so hard to feed their chicks? Plenty of animals don't look after their young (many fish, worms, ,insects, etc.) Why not be selfish, push the nestlings out and make them fend for themselves?

Well, genes may be selfish, but one thing about them: they don't care whose body they are in. Since the chicks all have copies of the genes of their parents, it makes sense to the selfish genes to have parents take good care of their young. That ensures the survival of the genes into the next generation.

Consider as well that the chicks are siblings to each other. Since they all inherited genes from the same parents, they have mostly the same genes as each other.

So selfish genes don't care which siblings survive as long as the genes survive in as many bodies as possible. If one chick gets all the food and won't share, only that chick will survive. But if they share their food, then likely four or five will survive, and that is good news for selfish genes.

Another way that selfish genes encourage unselfish behaviour is "tit for tat". In many animal groups, care is not limited only to close kin. It makes sense for one member of the group to share in the expectation that others will share as well. Observers have noted that when an individual cheats by taking what is offered but never offering anything in return, the rest of the group takes notice and stops sharing with that one. Selfish genes benefit when organisms do share, because it means more organisms (and so more genes) survive.




I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Maybe I didn't evolve enough intelligence. In any case, evolution is not a sequence of human actions, no matter how they interpret it.

I never say it IS. You are the one keep saying it IS NOT.

I said: (idea of) Evolution affects human actions.

This is a fact. Examples are everywhere. like it or not.
 
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juvenissun

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Saying an observation is above morality is wrong.

Saying a law can't be affected by morality is a fallacy.

Saying a theory can supplant moral decision making is a lie.

You are just not helping.

If one do not see the application of principle of evolution on social issues, the person is either ignorant, or is blind. Open your eyes. Processes similar to the functions of evolution happened in our daily life everywhere at any time.

I have an open bird feeder hanging on a tree. When squirrels and cats poke their heads toward it, I shoot them. Can you see some application of evolution principle in this example?
 
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gluadys

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Saying an observation is above morality is wrong.


Observation tells us what is.
Morality tells us what ought to be.

It is not a matter of one being above or below the other.
They are just different.

One cannot tell from what is what ought to be.
And one cannot tell from what ought to be what is.

But when what is is contrary to what ought to be, we can work to change what is until what is and what ought to be are one and the same.

Saying a law can't be affected by morality is a fallacy.


As for a law, depends what kind of law it is. Human laws can (and often ought to be) changed by morality.
Natural laws are God-given and can rarely, if ever, be changed by human effort. But then most natural laws are irrelevant to morality.


Saying a theory can supplant moral decision making is a lie.

That is very true. Scientific theories are about what is. They don't tell us what ought to be, and they provide no basis for avoiding moral decision making.

Of course, ignoring science is not a good idea either. With scientists sounding a clear alarm on climate change, it is immoral to ignore what is because you don't want to do what ought to be done to save the inhabitants of this planet from disaster. Unfortunately, especially in my country, that is just what the politicians are doing.
 
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juvenissun

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Observation tells us what is.
Morality tells us what ought to be.

It is not a matter of one being above or below the other.
They are just different.

One cannot tell from what is what ought to be.
And one cannot tell from what ought to be what is.

But when what is is contrary to what ought to be, we can work to change what is until what is and what ought to be are one and the same.




As for a law, depends what kind of law it is. Human laws can (and often ought to be) changed by morality.
Natural laws are God-given and can rarely, if ever, be changed by human effort. But then most natural laws are irrelevant to morality.




That is very true. Scientific theories are about what is. They don't tell us what ought to be, and they provide no basis for avoiding moral decision making.

Of course, ignoring science is not a good idea either. With scientists sounding a clear alarm on climate change, it is immoral to ignore what is because you don't want to do what ought to be done to save the inhabitants of this planet from disaster. Unfortunately, especially in my country, that is just what the politicians are doing.

Here is another example:

What you said we should do does not fit the principle of evolution. Evolution process never looks so far ahead.

What your government is doing fits well with the principle of evolution. We do not allow any far fetched consideration jeopardize our current needs.

Biologically, I do believe some species died off because the illustrated principles of evolution.

But, animals are animals. We are human. So, I agree with you after all.
 
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gluadys

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Here is another example:

What you said we should do does not fit the principle of evolution. Evolution process never looks so far ahead.


You are inventing a principle that does not exist. If you understood my previous post on selfish genes favoring unselfish organisms, you would get closer to the truth.

In us, evolution has produced an animal with imagination and foresight which can look far ahead. So we are following our own evolved instincts when we do.

Genes may not look far ahead, but many successful genes rely on organisms, especially humans, who do.



What your government is doing fits well with the principle of evolution. We do not allow any far fetched consideration jeopardize our current needs.

In the first place, it is not a far fetched consideration. It is current reality and all the information we have on the subject points to the need for immediate action. Why else is my government engaging in a systematic destruction of this information?

In the second place, if it is in the selfish interest of genes to preserve as many copies of themselves as possible, then the current policy, which leads to mass extinction of many species, possibly including ourselves, hardly fits well with any so-called "principle of evolution".

But, animals are animals. We are human. So, I agree with you after all.

Exactly. We are human animals, with the emphasis on human. We have God-given/evolved traits which allow us to plan in the way cells and genes cannot. We have a responsibility to God, to our planet and to our descendants to use these gifts with wisdom and compassion.
 
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juvenissun

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You are inventing a principle that does not exist. If you understood my previous post on selfish genes favoring unselfish organisms, you would get closer to the truth.

I am not inventing anything. Let me spell them out clearly:

Principle 1: Evolution never tries to deal with tomorrow.

Principle 2: Evolution only deals with the current need.

You may apply these principles socially AND scientifically.

Appreciate if you can tell me why are these two not principles of evolution.

Human violated these two principles. So human is not an evolution product.
 
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SkyWriting

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Hi there,

So I've given a lot of thought to Evolution, been told I don't understand the theory, been told I am looking for things that aren't there (like morality), been told you don't have to really believe Evolution - it just is -, been told it always happens, even though there's no real evidence that it does...

Natural selection works in the same way as unnatural selection.
Dog breeding for example.
So yes, the theory of natural selection is testable and works.
If there are some limits to change, they are based in the fundamental
laws of biology. We are at a "caveman" stage in biological science understanding.
 
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gluadys

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I am not inventing anything. Let me spell them out clearly:

Principle 1: Evolution never tries to deal with tomorrow.

Principle 2: Evolution only deals with the current need.

You may apply these principles socially AND scientifically.

Appreciate if you can tell me why are these two not principles of evolution.

Human violated these two principles. So human is not an evolution product.

First, they are not so much principles as fact.
Second, that does not change anything about selfish genes favouring unselfish social behaviour.
Nor does it change anything about human capacity to envision scenarios of the future and be guided by them.
If unselfish social behaviour and thinking about the future helps to preserve and multiply genes, those characteristics will be favoured here and now in a population of selfish genes even though the genes themselves can't deal with tomorrow.

I have no idea what you mean by humans violating these principles. Human evolution is the same process as all other biological evolution. Our genes do not attempt to deal with tomorrow. And we have no conscious control over the activity of our genes. But our genes don't have a lot of control over our thoughts and behaviour either. All they can do is survive, or not. So, if they are more likely to survive in a population that encourages unselfish behaviour, that is the type of behaviour that will be encouraged genetically as well as socially in future generations. Not because genes are planning ahead, but because genes which stimulate empathy, compassion, sharing, etc. are the survivors in a larger and larger proportion of the population over subsequent generations.

All evidence we have of human origins clearly indicates we are indeed products of an evolutionary process.
 
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