Evolution or Creationism?

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AV1611VET

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Your "apparent age" claims require God to plant fossils in the ground as part of the creation. That is Omphalos/Last Thursdayism.
I don't claim "apparent age," chief.

I claim "embedded age."

But let me guess what you're going to say: "It's still the same thing"?

If so, thanks for QED my previous point.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I am unaware of any examples of retroviruses taking the DNA out of one species and transferring it to another. Do you have references?

Sure you are, you just ignore the data is all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_gene_transfer

"Horizontal gene transfer (HGT) refers to the transfer of genes between organisms in a manner other than traditional reproduction...

http://mbio.asm.org/content/2/1/e00005-11.long

All of the reading that I have done shows that only the retroviral genes are inserted into the host genome.

Because you only read things that support your belief and dismiss everything that falsifies it. So of course you haven't, because you've never bothered to look for it.

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/44/17023.short

http://www.genengnews.com/gen-news-...o-humans-primates-and-other-animals/81251033/

Retroviral genes evolve to take on function as part of the host genome. This is evidence against evolution how?

Because they occur mainly in the reproductive genes - and so trace genes passed on after being "co-opted"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogenous_retrovirus

I am saying that they are genetic markers, not missing links.

I'm saying you can't say anything because we know those retroviruses are not native to the host. Those retroviruses are where the shared genomes exist. And those retroviruses have been empirically shown to transfer genes amongst mammals, despite you wanting it to be only amongst bacteria, so you can still keep your faith.

Although all those experiments confined only to bacteria you sure don't mind using when they appear to vaguely support your claim - until really looked at that is. But when it doesn't it's confined to one thing, right?
 
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AV1611VET

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Loudmouth

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Sure you are, you just ignore the data is all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_gene_transfer

"Horizontal gene transfer (HGT) refers to the transfer of genes between organisms in a manner other than traditional reproduction...

http://mbio.asm.org/content/2/1/e00005-11.long

What data have you shown supporting the claim that host genes are transported between complex eukaryote species by retroviruses? As far as I am aware, only retroviral genes are inserted by retroviruses in the species we are talking about. The example you give is for a bacteria which is hardly a problem for comparing chimp and human genomes.

Because you only read things that support your belief and dismiss everything that falsifies it. So of course you haven't, because you've never bothered to look for it.

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/44/17023.short

http://www.genengnews.com/gen-news-...o-humans-primates-and-other-animals/81251033/

Apparently, you don't read your own sources:

"HGT occurs at low, but appreciable, levels across all the animal species we examined; it has occurred over time and is still occurring; it mainly originates from bacteria and protists"

Retrovirsuse are not bacteria, nor are they protists. Nowhere does your reference give examples of retroviruses excising host DNA from one species and then shuttling it over to another species for the species groups we are discussing.

Moreover, you claim that they can't determine which DNA is vertically inherited because of HGT. Your own references refute this claim.

Because they occur mainly in the reproductive genes - and so trace genes passed on after being "co-opted"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogenous_retrovirus



I'm saying you can't say anything because we know those retroviruses are not native to the host. Those retroviruses are where the shared genomes exist. And those retroviruses have been empirically shown to transfer genes amongst mammal, despite you wanting it to be only amongst bacteria, so you can still keep your faith.

None of your references show retroviruses shuttling mammalian genes between mammals.
 
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AV1611VET

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You can't answer the question?

More like I don't want to contribute to your industrious attempts at keeping yourself from understanding the difference between apparent age and embedded age.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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What data have you shown supporting the claim that host genes are transported between complex eukaryote species by retroviruses? As far as I am aware, only retroviral genes are inserted by retroviruses in the species we are talking about. The example you give is for a bacteria which is hardly a problem for comparing chimp and human genomes.



Apparently, you don't read your own sources:

"HGT occurs at low, but appreciable, levels across all the animal species we examined; it has occurred over time and is still occurring; it mainly originates from bacteria and protists"

Retrovirsuse are not bacteria, nor are they protists. Nowhere does your reference give examples of retroviruses excising host DNA from one species and then shuttling it over to another species for the species groups we are discussing.

Moreover, you claim that they can't determine which DNA is vertically inherited because of HGT. Your own references refute this claim.



None of your references show retroviruses shuttling mammalian genes between mammals.

Apparently you don't read your own sources. Again - the odds against any life forming is what? And successful passing on a benefiting mutation is what?

Now suddenly infrequent is something you can't accept? While you can readily accept the odds of mutation over and over and over again for every species that exists? I have never yet seen an evolutionist that can keep a consistent argument for their beliefs.

So we both agree mutation can be dismissed as a cause of new genetic material because of 1) it's rarity - even rarer than HGT.

And 2) because all such experiments show mutation variation limits are always reached and can not be the source of new genetic material.

http://www.weloennig.de/Loennig-Long-Version-of-Law-of-Recurrent-Variation.pdf

And here is your proof that genomes are transfered between species, since you didnt read the others.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0001026

"Herein, we described several new complete ERV-K elements in the genomes of the common chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes) and rhesus monkey (Macaca mulatta) and compared them to those found in humans. We show, for the first time, that the demographic history of the host may be a major factor determining the dynamics of an endogenous retrovirus. Despite the draft quality of the rhesus genome assembly, we found many complete proviruses that have a marked similarity in their fluctuating demographic history to that of humans, with both these species distinct from that observed in the chimpanzee...

...In particular, we found a distinct group of 13 RhERV-K, which diverged around 12 MYBP that were absent in both humans and chimpanzees."

But you won't understand the deeper meaning because you don't want to hear it.
 
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Loudmouth

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Apparently you don't read your own sources. Again - the odds against any life forming is what? And successful passing on a benefiting mutation is what?

Now you are completely off the rails on completely different topics. ERV's, remember?

Now suddenly infrequent is something you can't accept? While you can readily accept the odds of mutation over and over and over again for every species that exists? I have never yet seen an evolutionist that can keep a consistent argument for their beliefs.

Let's look at the odds, shall we? What are the odds that two independent retroviral insertions will produce the same insertion at the same base in two different genomes? Most experiments put this at about 1 in 50,000 or so, and that is for hotspots that only occur in certain regions of the genome.

With those odds, out of 200,000 ERV's in the human genome we should only find a relative handful that have orthologs in the chimp genome if these ERV's are due to HGT and not vertical inheritance.

Do you agree or disagree?

So we both agree mutation can be dismissed as a cause of new genetic material because of 1) it's rarity - even rarer than HGT.

Each human is born with 50 mutations or so. Mutations are much more common than ERV's.

"Herein, we described several new complete ERV-K elements in the genomes of the common chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes) and rhesus monkey (Macaca mulatta) and compared them to those found in humans. We show, for the first time, that the demographic history of the host may be a major factor determining the dynamics of an endogenous retrovirus. Despite the draft quality of the rhesus genome assembly, we found many complete proviruses that have a marked similarity in their fluctuating demographic history to that of humans, with both these species distinct from that observed in the chimpanzee...

And this is a problem how?

Do you understand how scientists can determine which ERV's are from vertical inheritance and which are from lineage specific insertions?
 
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AV1611VET

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That's because you know that embedded age requires God to plant fossils in the ground.

I thought you said Omphalos/Last Thursday did that?

Which is it? Omphalos/Last Thursday or Embedded Age?
 
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LACanuck

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A multiverse only pushes the problem back one step and a multiverse is not anymore scientific than God and less convincing IMHO. There are those that do entertain a multiverse but others have shown how it is not the answer to the fine tuning.
I would suggest that the multiverse is more scientific than god, in that I can (at least potentially) define a test for whether the multiverse is verifiable. God, at least for any definition that I have been exposed to, is not scientifically verifiable at all. But that having been said, I'm not aware of a test of a multiverse hypothesis that has been defined, much less carried out.

As for the less convincing, I understand your perspective. To me, the idea that something arose from nothing is more reasonable than an eternal consciousness. To get an idea of how something (a universe) might arise from nothing, I would suggest the book A Universe From Nothing as a decent, albeit relatively technical, starting point. It's not conclusive by any means, but at least the idea that our universe might have come from nothing is consistent with the current state of cosmology.

As for a multiverse not being an answer to fine tuning, do you have a reference to the others who have suggested that it's not? Because, based on the readings that I've done to this point, the multiverse hypothesis is a very, very good answer to fine tuning.
 
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AV1611VET

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I am saying that embedded age is Omphalos in the same way that Last Thursdayism is Omphalos, even though you try to pretend otherwise.
Can you define embeded age creation?
 
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Loudmouth

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Can you define embeded age creation?

As you defined it, rocks date to millions and billions of years old because age was embedded into them. You also claimed this embedded age was limited to the rocks created during the initial creation week.

Right so far?
 
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