Evolution is not evidenced simply by similarity

Loudmouth

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I keep seeing creationists make the same false claim, that biologists think evolution is supported simply because different species have similarities.

Let's settle this right here and now. THIS ISN'T TRUE!!!! That is not what biologists are saying. As TO puts it:

"Mere similarity between organisms is not enough to support macroevolution; the nested classification pattern produced by a branching evolutionary process, such as common descent, is much more specific than simple similarity."
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#nested_hierarchy

It is the PATTERN of both similarities and differences which evidences evolution, not simply similarities. You can read more about what a nested hierarchy is and how they are constructed at the TO page linked above.

When we say that fossils support evolution, it is because the fossils fall into the same nested hierarchy that living species do.

When we say that a comparison of genomes supports evolution, it is because the pattern of DNA similarities and differences produce the same nested hierarchy as the one based on physical characteristics.

The most fundamental piece of evidence that supports the theory of evolution is the nested hierarchy, and it is nearly always ignored by creationists.
 
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joshua 1 9

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The great benefit in believing in creation is that you don't have to study all this stuff. :D
If you accept Science AND the Bible then you have your work cut out for you. Lazy people only accept one or the other.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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If you accept Science AND the Bible then you have your work cut out for you. Lazy people only accept one or the other.

You mean intellectually lazy I hope. At the end of my work day I just want to be entertained, not educated.
 
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Hoghead1

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You mean intellectually lazy I hope. At the end of my work day I just want to be entertained, not educated.
Well, that is precisely the problem. Many persons do not have the time or education to ponder these matters, true. But we should all do the best we can. Just throwing all the issues aside because you want entertained or very simple answers deems to me to be a big cop out. Simple religion is for simple minds.
 
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AV1611VET

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The most fundamental piece of evidence that supports the theory of evolution is the nested hierarchy, and it is nearly always ignored by creationists.
Nested hierarchies are, in my opinion, false positives.
 
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AV1611VET

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Simple religion is for simple minds.
1 Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
 
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Hoghead1

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1 Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
[/QUOT

These passages touch on precisely what I am talking about. If there ever were biblical passages that shoot down the notion of a simple religion, it is these. We just can't take it for granted all we say and believe comes from the Spirit. We have to carefully weigh out and test what we are saying. We should not readily accept, sit on our laurels, and take from granted the teachings of some church we are in. There teachings, these dogmas are but wisdom of the world, the fallible, man-made opinions of the fallible leaders and fathers. That is why, in an earlier post, I told you I want to cut out all the middlemen, all the fallible, human-made versions of Christianity, such as is the Bible Belt. I am going directly to Scripture and listening to what the structure of the texts tell me about themselves and their relationship to God. And believe me, it is a very different story from that provided by Bible Belt ideology.
 
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AV1611VET

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These passages touch on precisely what I am talking about. If there ever were biblical passages that shoot down the notion of a simple religion, it is these. We just can't take it for granted all we say and believe comes from the Spirit. We have to carefully weigh out and test what we are saying. We should not readily accept, sit on our laurels, and take from granted the teachings of some church we are in. There teachings, these dogmas are but wisdom of the world, the fallible, man-made opinions of the fallible leaders and fathers. That is why, in an earlier post, I told you I want to cut out all the middlemen, all the fallible, human-made versions of Christianity, such as is the Bible Belt. I am going directly to Scripture and listening to what the structure of the texts tell me about themselves and their relationship to God. And believe me, it is a very different story from that provided by Bible Belt ideology.
Just don't end up like Uzzah or King Uzziah.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Nested hierarchies are, in my opinion, false positives.
They really aren't. There is no actual reason nested hierarchies should exist if life was created, because the fact that multiple codon variations result in the same protein being produced, and that which chromosome a gene is located on is practically irrelevant to function as long as it isn't a sex defining gene or a sex defining chromosome, means that species with very similar traits or even identical ones can have drastically different DNA. We observe this in cases of convergent evolution, such as comparing sugar gliders and flying squirrels.

Furthermore, based on your beliefs, you must think that either YHWH created life this way knowing that it could be a cause of confusion in the future, or that YHWH allows the devil to directly mess with DNA (which, even if you believed satan could plant fossils, you probably wouldn't go that far, given that it would be directly messing with the physiology of "god's creation"). You can't even claim that this illusion is necessary, because species with similar traits that are very distant in terms of genes exist. There are so many different combinations by which the same creature can be achieved, that with the proper technology (or supernatural power), one could produce hundreds of different humans that had the exact same traits as myself without any of them having remotely similar DNA in terms of gene position, number of chromosomes, or what sequences code for what protein.
 
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In situ

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I keep seeing creationists make the same false claim, that biologists think evolution is supported simply because different species have similarities.

When I hear that claim I tend to point out that evolution is actually supported by the opposite; the differences.

But whether you look at differences or similarities there is one major important thing creationist ignores or misunderstand; the features which are compared are unique and inherent characteristics. It is very important they are, otherwise the comparsion means nothing.

This is lack of understanding is why creationists try to refute the nested set, and prove "design", with man made things that cannot reproduce themselves, such as bridges, cars and airplanes.
 
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Nested hierarchies are, in my opinion, false positives.

If you restrict the claim to be your opinion I am fine with that. I am not entitled to say what you can or cannot believe. But remember AV, going from a believe to assert truth is another matter - to assert truth you will need to support it with evidence.

I have pointed out in another thread that your belief is not supported by the evidence or any good reasons. With this, I am not saying you are wrong, but I am saying I, or anyone else, have no reason to accept an opinion as valid just because someone believe it is so. What I am trying to get to is that we all need to be humble about our knowledge - that we cannot assert that we know things for 100% sure when in particular it comes to questions about if a god exists and how a god possible did things.

Doubt is always helpful to help us understand things better, but the doubt you have in this case is misplaced. It actually prevents you from seeing what the nature of your god really is like when you insist in looking it the bible for answer instead of in the reality where your god actually exists.
 
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There is no actual reason nested hierarchies should exist if life was created

You cannot say there is no reason for a nested set to exist if life was created. There exists reasons, for instance, if the nested set is created by a god like creature then it might implies this creature is deceptive. However, this is contrary to what people (in the western world) believe about the creator so it is not counted as a viable suggestion, but still it is a possible reason. Another reason might be a coincident, but that is so insane redicoulse unlikely to be the case so we can safely say that is most likely not the case. I am sure there might be other reason but I cannot be bother to conjure any up, I leave that to the creationists to do.
 
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5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Yes, but this does not talk about the faith in how god created life, but that god exists, and that the promises he made is true. Right?

Why would god care about anyone's beliefs how god did created life? Isn't it just enough to believe god is responsible for life and then leave it there?

In the same manner that you have faith contrary to the scientific evidence about the origin of life, can you not have the same faith about the salvage, the fall of man and the promises made by god? I am asking, because when you deny the scientific evidence then you do not not have faith, but based your "faith" on what you see as good reasons.

Real faith would be to accept the scientific facts that evolution is true, but still believe gods promises. That would be faith. What you have now is belief based on, in my opinion incorrect, reasons, not faith.

I would admire you if you was able to have such faith - it is a beautiful faith. Right now, I cannot even accept the claim that you have faith - you believe in god for reasons.
 
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AV1611VET

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Isn't it just enough to believe god is responsible for life and then leave it there?
No.

From the Defender's Study Bible:
God finally answers Job, but He does so with about seventy-seven rhetorical questions, not one of which has anything to do with the sufferings of Job, or the sufferings of anyone else.
...
Instead, His questions all have to do with His great creation, and man's responsibility thereto. That, evidently, is God's great concern. He is rebuking Job (and all men, indirectly), not for sinning or for lack of faith (Job had passed those tests perfectly), but for his inability to answer His questions about the creation. Adam and his descendants had been given dominion over the creation, which certainly entailed learning to understand it and to care for its creatures, but it had now been about 2000 years since this first great commission was given, and little had been accomplished, with even the most righteous of men more concerned about their own affairs, than about God's creation.
 
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SkyWriting

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When we say that fossils support evolution, it is because the fossils fall into the same nested hierarchy that living species do.When we say that a comparison of genomes supports evolution, it is because the pattern of DNA similarities and differences produce the same nested hierarchy as the one based on physical characteristics.

It's all imaginary and of almost no value.
What was the temperature outside your front
door, 2 inches above the threshold, 60 minutes ago?
So much for knowing the past.
 
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I
When we say that fossils support evolution ...

When we say that a comparison of genomes supports evolution ...

And when biologist present the evidence for evolution, they are forced to simply the evidence (all of life) to small chunks and simple examples so we, non-experts, can understand. These simplification are what creationist attacks and claims are wrong...

A classical example of this is the "transitional" fossil. This expression is used a pedagogic tool, it is a simplified construct to explain evolution (which is not about individuals but populations dynamics). The point is, no organism is a transition but instead every organism is a complete full formed and functional organism in its own right. But this creationist does not acknowledge but claims a transition is some kind of "freak" organisms composed of two different "kinds" of organism. This is incorrect and only serves to confuses the understanding of what evolution actually means and is about.
.
The most fundamental piece of evidence that supports the theory of evolution is the nested hierarchy, and it is nearly always ignored by creationists.

And there is reason why they do that...

When talking with creationists, I would not recommend to use the word 'hierarchy' but instead 'set' to avoid confusion. A creationists is "taught" the idea that a hierarchy is presupposed. If you say 'set' instead of 'hierarchy', then it leave the option open in the discussion to explain how the hierarchy is not assumed but derived from a nested set. We, not creationists, know why it is a hierarchy so we don't talk about it as a set, nor do we need to justify it all the time. However, if you discuss the pattern of life with a creationist that does not know why it is hierarchy, but believe you have assume it, then you will fail even before you started.

Remember the very same nested hierarchy was a big mystery before Darwin explained it. Creationists still experience this mystery. They know it exists, but they cannot explain it nor explain it away. So they "ignore" it as the mystery it is, in other words they accept it exists but they don't accept that it is a real hierarchy, but believe it is constructed, i.e. assumed.

In other words creationist "ignore" the (only) evidence - but not willfully.
 
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No.

From the Defender's Study Bible:

Comments about truths in the Bible is not to be confused about the truths in the Bible. That said, I asked you, what is more important for you, to find the truth, about your god, either in the bible or finding the truth about god in all of reality where you and I, and your god, and everything else, actually exists in?
 
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