Evolution Between Species: Essential Questions

Speedwell

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That sounds like a negative factor to promote evolution.
Why? If only one species of bird reached the islands, one would expect it to be the ancestor of many more species than if many species originally had reached the islands. There are even examples of islands where niches are occupied by bird species in which mammals would be found on the mainland--New Zealand, for example.
 
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Papias

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Nature seems not to want to cross boundaries. One of the key theological themes of Genesis is ‘separation’ (I do not have space to go into it here). In Genesis 1 the word ‘separation’ occurs several times. Elements in creation keeping separate from other elements is a key part of the Genesis creation setup. It is when boundaries are crossed that chaos creeps into God’s creation (again, a Major theme in Genesis that I can’t go into here).

The liger only came about after a long arduous attempt by humans to mix lion and tiger. Thus too in human terms, if father mates with daughter, there is a negative nature response – i.e., often a retardation. Thus nature does not seem to like crossing boundaries for good reasons: it is not best for the species in question, and produces problems.

Except that your father/daughter example is the exact opposite of your liger/boundary point. You start of saying that nature won't mix animals that are too different (just like Genesis says not to mix different things), yet, based on that, the father/daughter mix should be very very good, since the father and daughter are very *similar* not very *different*. You seem to be arguing against your point. In reality, the problem arises because the father/daughter share recessive genes - thus are too similar.

However, there appears not to be very much at all in terms of nature's desire to be just as inventive in crossing the boundary unto another species. It seems to shy away from this (unless I am wrong; if not, please correct me).

Yes, as pointed out above, that is just plain wrong. Nature has no problem making new species, and evolving things very different (over time) from their ancestors. There is no evidence of any kind of "boundary" to evolution, other than in the minds of creationists.

One really neat example of speciation comes from anole lizards in the carribean islands. On each island, there are separate species of lizard that fit different ecological niches. So on, say, Puerto Rico, there is a lizard species that is robust and lives on tree trunks, and another lizard species that is thin, gracile, and lives at the tops of trees, and yet another that is flattened and lives under rocks, and so on. It turns out that each island has these same several types of lizard. So it seems that maybe a "trunk type" lizard evolved on island, and then spread to the others, and the same happened for the rock type, and so on. Or, a creationist might say that all these different kinds of lizard were created to fit those ecological niches.

This can be tested, because DNA can show which are most similar (and have a more recent great-grandfather lizard). DNA studies of the lizards gave surprising results! It turns out that all the lizards on each island share a recent common ancestor compared to lizards on another island. In other words, a rock type lizard and a tree-top kind of lizard on Cuba are more similar by DNA than a rock kind of lizard on Cuba is to very similar looking rock kind of lizard on Puerto Rico.

In other words, a few lizards of one kind got onto each island at some time in the past, and evolved into the different species on that island. Later, some of those lizards (say, rock-kind) got to the next island, and from there evolved into all the different species on that next island, and so on. Note that this not only helps us reject the unsupported idea of "boundaries", but it also shows how silly the creationist idea of "common DNA is from common design" is, because it shows the exact opposite. In other words, a given type of lizard from different islands (say, rock type) would be expected by the creationist "common design" idea to have DNA more similar than any tree-top kind of lizard, yet that's the exact opposed of what we see (where rock and tree-top kinds of lizard from the same island are more similar to each other).

The idea that there are some kind of "boundaries" stopping species from evolving is shown, again and again, to be just plain wrong. Here's an article on some of the lizard discoveries. http://www.livescience.com/38275-evolution-more-predictable-than-thought.html

In Christ-

Papias
 
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juvenissun

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Why? If only one species of bird reached the islands, one would expect it to be the ancestor of many more species than if many species originally had reached the islands. There are even examples of islands where niches are occupied by bird species in which mammals would be found on the mainland--New Zealand, for example.

No pressure, why change?
 
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Speedwell

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No pressure, why change?
Expansion. Variation is occurring all the time. The immigrant species will fill the initially suitable ecological niche, but there will always be variants to take advantage of empty adjacent environments, and gradually new species will form to fill all of them, if they are not already occupied by native species. In the case of rare immigrants to isolated islands, there will be empty ones. In the case of New Zealand, for example, the are members of the bird family doing jobs that we on the mainland expect to see mammals in, because the birds got there first.

"Why change?" is the wrong question. There is constant change, constant variation. The question should be, "Are there any opportunities for the variants?"
 
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juvenissun

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Expansion. Variation is occurring all the time. The immigrant species will fill the initially suitable ecological niche, but there will always be variants to take advantage of empty adjacent environments, and gradually new species will form to fill all of them, if they are not already occupied by native species. In the case of rare immigrants to isolated islands, there will be empty ones. In the case of New Zealand, for example, the are members of the bird family doing jobs that we on the mainland expect to see mammals in, because the birds got there first.

"Why change?" is the wrong question. There is constant change, constant variation. The question should be, "Are there any opportunities for the variants?"

The environment in all islands of Hawaiian are the same. Not enough variation to promote change.
Variation, yes. But change, no. Not all variations lead to change.
 
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sfs

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The environment in all islands of Hawaiian are the same. Not enough variation to promote change.
Variation, yes. But change, no. Not all variations lead to change.
Your statement is (a) wildly wrong, and (b) irrelevant. It's wrong because Hawaii has one of the densest collections of diverse ecological zones in the world. It's irrelevant because even a single environment has multiple ecological niches that can be filled by different species. A single forest, for example, can support birds that eat small seed, birds that eat big seeds, birds that eat nectar, birds that eat flying insects, birds that eat insects under tree bark and birds that eat insects in the soil. If there are no birds filling those niches, then there are multiple selection pressures pushing birds in multiple directions.
 
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Speedwell

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The environment in all islands of Hawaiian are the same. Not enough variation to promote change.
Variation, yes. But change, no. Not all variations lead to change.
I'm not talking about variations in the environment, but the randomly distributed variation in somatic features produced with each new generation of a species.
 
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RickG

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The creationist rebuttal to this would be to say that DNA is like a software programme and, while it can certainly display a certain inventiveness in micro-evolution, it is limited by its basic parametres from adapting or evolving outside of what it is ‘programmed’ to do.
One of the major claims of the "creation science" literature is that they use the same evidence as mainstream science but interpret it differently. My experience in sourcing the "creation science" literature has been that they do not only not use the same evidence, the present no original data or research to support their claims.

NOW my question is: Is there anything currently known to science, in the construction of the gene, cell or DNA, or anything else in nature, that would stop that DNA from mutating from one species to another?

My area of expertise is certainly not in the biological sciences, rather the earth sciences, so I will not expound on an area I know little about.

What I will ask is how does one explain the fossil record throughout the geologic column without evolution. In other words, how did they get distributed exactly how evolution would explain it without evolution? If evolution were false, then we should find all past forms of life, both plant and animal in all the stratigraphic layers of the geologic column. Evolution is not just a made up want-a-be science, it is what the physical evidence shows.
 
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Commander

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In fact, we know speciation (one species evolving, through mutation and selection, into another) because we've seen it.
Yeah, I viewed the site you have listed. You are confusing micro with macro evolution. Example one from the site quotes "Two strains of Drosophila paulistorum developed hybrid sterility of male offspring between 1958 and 1963." If the male offspring is sterile it cannot reproduce, in other words it is not able to procreate or have little Drosophila paulistorum babies. We also see this in mules. Prognosis- it goes extinct. Not a very good example of evolution there- keep trying you will come to the truth of "In the beginning God."
 
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sfs

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Yeah, I viewed the site you have listed. You are confusing micro with macro evolution.
The confusion is yours. "Macroevolution" usually means any evolution outside a single species, and includes speciation. This is therefore macroevolution.
Example one from the site quotes "Two strains of Drosophila paulistorum developed hybrid sterility of male offspring between 1958 and 1963." If the male offspring is sterile it cannot reproduce, in other words it is not able to procreate or have little Drosophila paulistorum babies. We also see this in mules.
Exactly. Which is why horses and donkeys are distinct species. Which is why these two strains of D. paulistorum are distinct species. Which is what Papias said.
Prognosis- it goes extinct.
Right -- just like donkeys and horses have gone extinct because mules are sterile. In other words, huh?
Not a very good example of evolution there- keep trying you will come to the truth of "In the beginning God."
Papias already believes that truth. What does that have to do with anything?
 
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Commander

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The confusion is yours. "Macroevolution" usually means any evolution outside a single species, and includes speciation. This is therefore macroevolution.

Exactly. Which is why horses and donkeys are distinct species. Which is why these two strains of D. paulistorum are distinct species. Which is what Papias said.

Right -- just like donkeys and horses have gone extinct because mules are sterile. In other words, huh?

Papias already believes that truth. What does that have to do with anything?
And I would say that Papias could speak for himself. To make sure that you know....mules do not have offspring, they are sterile.
 
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sfs

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And I would say that Papias could speak for himself. To make sure that you know....mules do not have offspring, they are sterile.
Yes, Papias can speak for himself. I too can speak for myself, however, and I'm telling you that your statements about speciation were incorrect.

Yes, I know that mules are sterile. In fact, I mentioned that in my post. What I don't understand is why you think that makes this a bad example of evolution. Hybrids between donkeys and horses are sterile, but horses and donkeys do just fine, since they're separate species. Similarly, hybrids between the two strains of fruit fly have no long term future because the two strains are now separate species. In other words, they are an example of speciation, and therefore of macroevolution. Does that make sense now?
 
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Commander

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I assumed you meant something when you wrote, "Prognosis- it goes extinct. Not a very good example of evolution there." Was I mistaken?
My bad, I should have said it cannot procreate, therefore the species goes extinct. If it cannot procreate, there would be no offspring to pass on the genes. Is it really that hard for you?
 
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RickG

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My bad, I should have said it cannot procreate, therefore the species goes extinct. If it cannot procreate, there would be no offspring to pass on the genes. Is it really that hard for you?
Seriously Commander? FYI sfs is a Geneticist.
 
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sfs

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My bad, I should have said it cannot procreate, therefore the species goes extinct. If it cannot procreate, there would be no offspring to pass on the genes. Is it really that hard for you?
Your reply seems to have no connection to the subject under discussion, and your objections to this example are spurious. No species here is sterile.
 
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sfs

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First, the bible speaks against those who believe we stem from rocks.
Where does it do that?

Second, scientists' proof of evolution has always ended in it being a theory.
The theory of evolution is the scientific explanation for how evolution occurs. That all life is descended from common ancestors is as much a fact as anything else we know.

1 Dating can render a fresh penguin skeleton to be 20 million years old, accurate?
Incorrect.
2 Bones of ancestors is all fabrication and hoaxes, has been nothing more.
Incorrect. Why are you stating falsehoods? Where are you getting this information?
3 Fossils of ancient animals are found alive, they aren't even extinct, let alone the first of all living matter billions of years ago.
Um, so?
4 Petrification is actually a very fast process, and they don't want to acknowledge that fact.
The speed of petrifaction is completely irrelevant to the reality of evolution.
They call evolution fact, and know not that they have a terrible religion.
I have a religion: it's called "Christianity". Evolution is what I study for a living.
 
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