Evolution and christanity.

Do you believe in evolution.

  • Yes evolution is true.

    Votes: 15 50.0%
  • No evolution is false.

    Votes: 12 40.0%
  • Not sure.

    Votes: 3 10.0%

  • Total voters
    30

lesliedellow

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Basically modern science has found evidence of the cells can be aware of the stress :) And do you know why it is so controversial when it was first published? Because it clearly calls a conscientious evolution (something intelligence in it, when modern secular science tried their best to take out the intelligence part from evolution).

It will be controversial because, if the observations are correct, it begs the question of how crlls can become aware of their environment, and adjust their mutation rate accordingly. There is no intelligence implied. People sometimes talk loosely about a computer "knowing" something, or even more loosely about how a magnet can "know" that there is a lump of iron a couple of inches away from it, and so be attracted towards it.


So science will actually show the existence of God, or point us to that direction, when it advances enough, as in Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

Something pointing in the direction of God is just fine by me, but that has no relevance to the truth of Evolution.
 
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dcalling

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It will be controversial because, if the observations are correct, it begs the question of how crlls can become aware of their environment, and adjust their mutation rate accordingly. There is no intelligence implied. People sometimes talk loosely about a computer "knowing" something, or even more loosely about how a magnet can "know" that there is a lump of iron a couple of inches away from it, and so be attracted towards it.

It will be interesting as at what point they became "aware". If evolution is true, there will be a jump from "unaware" to "aware", when did that happen? A bounch of chemicals are not aware, and how does simple bacteria became aware?

And to make evolution whole, the jump must happen, to this day there is no experiment that can find it. And to the advantage of the cell, it will be beneficial to keep evolving even if there is no pressure, because natural mutation happens all the time, no matter under good or bad condition, so why did the e.coli evolution slow down to a craw?

Something pointing in the direction of God is just fine by me, but that has no relevance to the truth of Evolution.
It does. If God is doing part of evolution, that means there must be a creator, which modern scientists denies. That is why when some of the brights physicsis come up with the "Multiverse" theory, that they found our parameters in our world are so finely adjusted, just a slight change and our world will be in chaos or never come to be, and they refuse to believe God in in this, so they come up with the idea that there are multiple universes with random parameters, and our world only come to be in random.

See, it is either God, who created order, or it is just an accident in a random world :)
 
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lesliedellow

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It will be interesting as at what point they became "aware". If evolution is true, there will be a jump from "unaware" to "aware", when did that happen? A bounch of chemicals are not aware, and how does simple bacteria became aware?

Idon't know how consciousness is to be accounted for, but I am not prepared to say that it can have no physical explanation. Personally I think that there would need to be a paradigm shift before it could be explained.


And to make evolution whole, the jump must happen, to this day there is no experiment that can find it. And to the advantage of the cell, it will be beneficial to keep evolving even if there is no pressure, because natural mutation happens all the time, no matter under good or bad condition, so why did the e.coli evolution slow down to a crawl

I see you didn't get as far as googling natural selection (not mutation).


It does. If God is doing part of evolution, that means there must be a creator, which modern scientists denies.

Rubbish. Science per se has nothing to say on the subject of whether or not God exists, and there are both theists and atheists working as scientists. Richard Dawkins may believe in making himself heard, but he does not speak for the theists in the scientific community.
 
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DaisyDay

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bacterias change change, within their designed parameters. Checkout the real experiment that has been going on for decades, where we try to observe evolution of e.coli. It indeed plateaued, which indicates pre-set parameters of DNA (just like a program where we can set parameters to affect behavior).
e. coli is only one particular species of bacteria. Because oak trees are still oak trees, would you say that plants have plateaued?
 
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dcalling

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e. coli is only one particular species of bacteria. Because oak trees are still oak trees, would you say that plants have plateaued?
That is the only real experiments that has been going on for years, the best one so far. If you happened to known some other experiments that shows none plateaued evolution, let me know :)
 
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DaisyDay

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That is the only real experiments that has been going on for years, the best one so far. If you happened to known some other experiments that shows none plateaued evolution, let me know :)
What do you mean by "plateaued"? The bacteria did demonstrably evolve new traits if it's the same experiment I'm aware of.
 
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dcalling

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What do you mean by "plateaued"? The bacteria did demonstrably evolve new traits if it's the same experiment I'm aware of.
Did you see the report? Their measure against ancestor strain increased rapidly at first but leveled off after 20k generations. The new traits might well be differences of what the cell is designed to do (i.e. parameter changes), and that is why you see the changes plateau, instead of a exponential diversification, as expected by traditional theory of evolution, because mutations occur and with a good environment, there is almost no selection and we should expect to see all sorts of different stuff, due to all the different mutation combinations that survived on good environment.
 
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dcalling

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I see you didn't get as far as googling natural selection (not mutation).

That is rather arrogant, for a man keep insisting Mutation is not random.
Sometimes I don't understand your position, because you firmly believe in evolution, yet on the topics that atheists will fight tooth and nails for, i.e. random or designed mutation, you seems to stand on the designed side. But I am pretty sure you will disagree on that God make the mutation and natural do selection.

Natural selection is only secondary (only shaking off the unfit mutations), Mutation is the one that caused all this diversity (according to the theory). Without natural selection mutation will create a much diversified world, don't you agree?

Rubbish. Science per se has nothing to say on the subject of whether or not God exists, and there are both theists and atheists working as scientists. Richard Dawkins may believe in making himself heard, but he does not speak for the theists in the scientific community.
You should read my post careful. I didn't say science can prove or disprove God (which I believe is impossible), what I said is the more advanced we are in science, the more science will show all this is impossible without God.
 
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lesliedellow

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That is rather arrogant, for a man keep insisting Mutation is not random.
Sometimes I don't understand your position, because you firmly believe in evolution, yet on the topics that atheists will fight tooth and nails for, i.e. random or designed mutation, you seems to stand on the designed side. But I am pretty sure you will disagree on that God make the mutation and natural do selection.

I am a Calvinist, so I believe that God foreordains whatsoever comes to pass. I am less than happy with the word "design", because it sounds more like an activity undertaken by creatures with limited intellects, rather than by an omnipotent being who can instantaneously conceive in its completeness, and instantaneously bring about, whatsoever he desires.


Natural selection is only secondary (only shaking off the unfit mutations), Mutation is the one that caused all this diversity (according to the theory). Without natural selection mutation will create a much diversified world, don't you agree?
It is difficult to see how natural selection could fail to operate in a world where organisms reproduce and genes mutate. I am not sure the question even makes logical sense.
 
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dcalling

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I am a Calvinist, so I believe that God foreordains whatsoever comes to pass. I am less than happy with the word "design", because it sounds more like an activity undertaken by creatures with limited intellects, rather than by an omnipotent being who can instantaneously conceive in its completeness, and instantaneously bring about, whatsoever he desires.

It is my believe that all those takes time, as it is recorded in the Bible there are at least 6 days (stages). But I could be wrong, because those days could mean milliseconds or billions of years. Of course I could be wrong and this didn't take time at all, but it is not important as it does not affect the Bible's message.

It is difficult to see how natural selection could fail to operate in a world where organisms reproduce and genes mutate. I am not sure the question even makes logical sense.

My problem is not with natural selection, as the evidence of natural selection is clear. My problem is there is no evidence at all how the first RNA is formed, or that one bacteria can mutate to something that is outside of the designed bounds (i.e. as shown in the e.coli mutation example, the plateau of mutation instead of an exponential increase).
 
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As I was saying

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If your world view excludes God, yes then evolution is true. If your world view does not exclude God, then evolution is the creation of man to get God out of the picture.

Since I have been studying evolution I have read about 10 books on the subject and hundreds of articles on the internet. The latest book is "The Death of Evolution" and reading that does seem to prove that evolution is on the way out as more and more scientists are ditching it as viable.

If your world view includes God you will notice that in Genesis it says that He created whatever it was after its own kind. This precludes evolution because it means that dog begets dog. Cat begets cat. Fish begets fish. Humans beget humans. Monkeys beget monkeys. Trees beget trees. Flowers beget flowers. And so on and so on.

That being the case, an amoeba cannot beget a fish which begets a lizard which begets a dinosaur which begets a monkey which begets a human.

To make matters worse, those who promote evolution do so with a lot of uncertainty. In the books I have read I am told that humans descended from monkeys. Last year I watched a programme on TV which featured an excited atheist who said that he had discovered that mankind evolved from a sand worm no bigger than his thumb nail.

Of late the idea that man descended from monkeys seems to have fallen by the wayside and now we are told that evolution is adaptation as in a finches beak changes shape and a dogs hair gets longer in a cold climate.

Evolutionists do drop some almighty clangers along the way. I lived in England when the Piltdown man was anointed as the one that filled in the gaps and proved evolution. 50 years later it was announced that it was a complete hoax and turned out to be some animal skull. I cannot understand how such experts could make such a ghastly mistake.

Another evolutionists who was doing some digging found a tooth. From that tooth, he constructed what the man looked like whom it came from, what his wife looked like, what his children looked like, what the village he came from looked like and what the people in that village did.

One could be forgiven for saying to that evolutionist "Of course you are joking."

When I started studying evolution the world was 20 million years old. This advanced to 80 million. Then to 200 million. Then to 1.3 billion and ended up at 13.5 billion courtesy of Christopher Hitchens.

One could read into that and say the evolutionists seem to grab at anything that will advance their cause.

Then there is the evolutionist/s who claim no one evolutionist speaks for another. What that means is that you can say what you want and it is true unless someone comes along and proves that what he said wasn't true. What it also means is that evolution is something that is in the eye of the beholder that blows with the wind and the latest fad.

When it come to faith, the evolutionist has much more faith than the christian as he has to believe that life is all about from goo to you via the zoo. No evidence. Just speculation. I admit I don't have enough faith to believe that.

So all in all, the fact that in the beginning God created...is much more rational than up jumped a little amoeba and turned itself into a fish which turned itself into a...which turned itself into....which turned it self into...and so on.

And of course the big blockbuster which has all atheists and evolutionists stumped is the question "How did life begin?" So far I haven't received one plausible answer to this question.
 
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Cuddles333

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I have found that Theistic evolution is the only answer as to how living things have come to be as they are. However, the only Theistic being that would have used such a horrendous method with that given power, time, and elements, could only have been Lucifer and his cohorts. The Creation story from the book of Genesis was an Apologetic told and written for a primitive people to counter the Egyptian version/s. I have read that people in that part of world back then were not concerned about logic in their stories. Seems that things haven't changed much ^_^

One cannot defend the position of natural evolution in public debate. The proof and impact of this can be experienced by viewing the very short segment in the Craig-Hitchens debate. We can see that Lucifer was the culprit in implementing evolution by seeing how creatures operate in nature and of how natural disasters cause such damage and suffering. I will never get over seeing on tv how a tarantula climbed a cactus in order to feed on the baby birds that were in the nest on top and how valiantly the mother fought to keep the spider from doing so...but failed. Also when the komodo dragon was able to bite an animal and then track it for days until it was too sick to stay on it's feet and then a whole herd of komodo dragons came in to tear it apart and it wasn't even dead yet. When I see a boa constrictor kill it's prey, and the poisonous snakes, etc., etc. All of these and so many other things are against God's nature. This is why He said that He is going to roll up this entire universe like a scroll and bring about what was originally intended. We are not in a position to know why the only Change He made to this universe was to sacrifice His own Son when He came into time and found this beautiful but deadly earth.
 
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Dr.J0sh

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If your world view excludes God, yes then evolution is true. If your world view does not exclude God, then evolution is the creation of man to get God out of the picture.

Since I have been studying evolution I have read about 10 books on the subject and hundreds of articles on the internet. The latest book is "The Death of Evolution" and reading that does seem to prove that evolution is on the way out as more and more scientists are ditching it as viable.

If your world view includes God you will notice that in Genesis it says that He created whatever it was after its own kind. This precludes evolution because it means that dog begets dog. Cat begets cat. Fish begets fish. Humans beget humans. Monkeys beget monkeys. Trees beget trees. Flowers beget flowers. And so on and so on.

That being the case, an amoeba cannot beget a fish which begets a lizard which begets a dinosaur which begets a monkey which begets a human.

To make matters worse, those who promote evolution do so with a lot of uncertainty. In the books I have read I am told that humans descended from monkeys. Last year I watched a programme on TV which featured an excited atheist who said that he had discovered that mankind evolved from a sand worm no bigger than his thumb nail.

Of late the idea that man descended from monkeys seems to have fallen by the wayside and now we are told that evolution is adaptation as in a finches beak changes shape and a dogs hair gets longer in a cold climate.

Evolutionists do drop some almighty clangers along the way. I lived in England when the Piltdown man was anointed as the one that filled in the gaps and proved evolution. 50 years later it was announced that it was a complete hoax and turned out to be some animal skull. I cannot understand how such experts could make such a ghastly mistake.

Another evolutionists who was doing some digging found a tooth. From that tooth, he constructed what the man looked like whom it came from, what his wife looked like, what his children looked like, what the village he came from looked like and what the people in that village did.

One could be forgiven for saying to that evolutionist "Of course you are joking."

When I started studying evolution the world was 20 million years old. This advanced to 80 million. Then to 200 million. Then to 1.3 billion and ended up at 13.5 billion courtesy of Christopher Hitchens.

One could read into that and say the evolutionists seem to grab at anything that will advance their cause.

Then there is the evolutionist/s who claim no one evolutionist speaks for another. What that means is that you can say what you want and it is true unless someone comes along and proves that what he said wasn't true. What it also means is that evolution is something that is in the eye of the beholder that blows with the wind and the latest fad.

When it come to faith, the evolutionist has much more faith than the christian as he has to believe that life is all about from goo to you via the zoo. No evidence. Just speculation. I admit I don't have enough faith to believe that.

So all in all, the fact that in the beginning God created...is much more rational than up jumped a little amoeba and turned itself into a fish which turned itself into a...which turned itself into....which turned it self into...and so on.

And of course the big blockbuster which has all atheists and evolutionists stumped is the question "How did life begin?" So far I haven't received one plausible answer to this question.

If you believe in creation then how do you explains a tree that is 10-15000 years old or light hitting our planet from billions of light years away...
 
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As I was saying

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As I have never seen a tree 10,000—15,000 years old, I will give it a pass. One has to factor in the flood which in all probability changed the nature of things but we are not told the details. A tree that is pronounced as 10,000 years old may have been no more than 5,000 years old because of the flood.

The same with the light scenario. No doubt the flood affected the way light operated. Again we are not told. All we can do is speculate like the evolutionists do. With the earth being covered totally by water, it is not going to be the same afterward.

When you leave out a piece of the puzzle like the flood, you are not going to comprehend the whole picture. I know you believe what you said but I have no evidence that what is happening is contrary to how things panned out as a result of the flood.

You have to believe something and in my case I believe what God said. You believe what you said or have been told. Only a spiritual revelation can change that.
 
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dcalling

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If you believe in creation then how do you explains a tree that is 10-15000 years old or light hitting our planet from billions of light years away...

not sure where the 15000 year old tree come from, but why is billions year away light have anything to do with evolution?
 
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ViaCrucis

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If your world view excludes God, yes then evolution is true. If your world view does not exclude God, then evolution is the creation of man to get God out of the picture.

False.

Since I have been studying evolution

I doubt it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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not sure where the 15000 year old tree come from, but why is billions year away light have anything to do with evolution?

It doesn't have anything to do with evolution itself, but it does have to do with the age of the universe and the earth.

The speed of light in a vacuum is a constant. This constant is known as c. c = 299,792,458 meters per second. Things can certainly affect light, gravity for example, light passing through a medium is likewise different if only fractionally. But passing through a vacuum light always remains c. This means that we can be rather confident that if you, an earthbound observer, peer through a telescope and see stars shining in our next door galactic neighbor, Andromeda, you are seeing light that left that galaxy 2.5 million years ago. Because the light that came from those stars has had to travel the entire distance from its origin to your eyes, and while the journey to your eyes may have been a bumpy one, cosmically speaking, it could not arrive any faster than 2.5 million years.

And most arguments against old age largely hinge either on insisting that the speed of light is not constant (which throws out special relativity which consistently has held true) or else offer some variant of the Omphalos Argument, thereby accusing God of being some kind of cosmic jester or fraudster.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Do you believe that evolution is accurate and true yes or no and why? I for one see evolution as true because of scientific evidence.

Hi Josh,

Yes, it seems the concept of biological evolution is an accurate explanation of what has transpired in the natural history of our planet. As you've said, there is evidence for it.

2PhiloVoid
 
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