Evidence The Fathers Taught Free Will

jckstraw72

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"For if He willeth not that one of His little ones should perish, how can we imagine without grievous blasphemy that He does not generally will all men, but only some instead of all to be saved? Those then who perish, perish against His will." St. John Cassian, Conferences, XIII, 7
 
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Cappadocious

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"We believe the most good God to have from eternity predestinated unto glory those whom He hath chosen, and to have consigned unto condemnation those whom He hath rejected; but not so that He would justify the one, and consign and condemn the other without cause. For that were contrary to the nature of God, who is the common Father of all, and no respecter of persons, and would have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth; but since He foreknew the one would make a right use of their free-will, and the other a wrong, He predestinated the one, or condemned the other. And we understand the use of free-will thus, that the Divine and illuminating grace, and which we call preventing grace, being, as a light to those in darkness, by the Divine goodness imparted to all, to those that are willing to obey this — for it is of use only to the willing, not to the unwilling — and co-operate with it, in what it requireth as necessary to salvation, there is consequently granted particular grace; which, co-operating with us, and enabling us, and making us perseverant in the love of God, that is to say, in performing those good things that God would have us to do, and which His preventing grace admonisheth us that we should do, justifieth us, and maketh us predestinated. But those who will not obey, and co-operate with grace; and, therefore, will not observe those things that God would have us perform, and that abuse in the service of Satan the free-will, which they have received of God to perform voluntarily what is good, are consigned to eternal condemnation. But to say, as the most wicked heretics do...that God, in predestinating, or condemning, had in no wise regard to the works of those predestinated, or condemned, we know to be profane and impious. For thus Scripture would be opposed to itself, since it promiseth the believer salvation through works, yet supposeth God to be its sole author, by His sole illuminating grace, which He bestoweth without preceding works, to shew to man the truth of divine things, and to teach him how he may co-operate therewith, if he will, and do what is good and acceptable, and so obtain salvation. He taketh not away the power to will — to will to obey, or not obey him.
But than to affirm that the Divine Will is thus solely and without cause the author of their condemnation, what greater calumny can be fixed upon God? and what greater injury and blasphemy can be offered to the Most High? For that the Deity is not tempted with evils, and that He equally willeth the salvation of all, since there is no respect of persons with Him, we do know; and that for those who through their own wicked choice, and their impenitent heart, have become vessels of dishonour, there is, as is just, decreed condemnation, we do confess. But of eternal punishment, of cruelty, of pitilessness, and of inhumanity, we never, never say God is the author, who telleth us that there is joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth. Far be it from us, while we have our senses, thus to believe, or to think; and we do subject to an eternal anathema those who say and think such things, and esteem them to be worse than any infidels."

-Synod of Jerusalem 1672
 
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Lukaris

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"The spiritual & noetic soul possesses life as essence, yet is can admit cotntraries, that is to say, good & evil. Thus it is evident that it does not have goodness as essence, not evil either; both are as it were qualities & when either is present it is because the soul has chosen it. They are present, not with respect to place, but whenever the noetic soul, having received free will from its Creator, inclines to one or the other & wills to live in accordance with it. Hence the spiritual & noetic soul is composite, but on account of the activity mentioned above; for this activity is related to something else, namely the body, and so does not by nature produce what is composite.Rather the soul is composite on account of its own essence & the presence in it of the two contrary qualities- good & evil - of which we have just spoken." St Gregory Palamas - Topics of Natural & Theological Science #33, Philokalia vol 4.
 
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truthseeker32

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"We believe the most good God to have from eternity predestinated unto glory those whom He hath chosen, and to have consigned unto condemnation those whom He hath rejected; but not so that He would justify the one, and consign and condemn the other without cause. For that were contrary to the nature of God, who is the common Father of all, and no respecter of persons, and would have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth; but since He foreknew the one would make a right use of their free-will, and the other a wrong, He predestinated the one, or condemned the other.
Is this Orthodox? It sounds Calvinistic. How does this work with the idea that our salvation is based on whether we choose to accept or reject God?
 
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Cappadocious

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Is this Orthodox? It sounds Calvinistic. How does this work with the idea that our salvation is based on whether we choose to accept or reject God?
The same way that God is able to hear our prayers and take them into account before the foundation of the world.

He is able to take our free will choices into account before the foundation of the world.

It is not Calvinistic. And this council pretty much lifted its theology from the RCC of the time.
 
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jckstraw72

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St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Romans
4:1 I write to all the churches, and I bid all men know, that of my own free will I die for God, unless ye should hinder me. I exhort you, be ye not an unseasonable kindness to me. Let me be given to the wild beasts, for through them I can attain unto God. I am God's wheat, and I am ground by the teeth of wild beasts that I may be found pure bread [of Christ].
 
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truthseeker32

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The same way that God is able to hear our prayers and take them into account before the foundation of the world.

He is able to take our free will choices into account before the foundation of the world.

It is not Calvinistic. And this council pretty much lifted its theology from the RCC of the time.
It just seems like the term "forsees" should be used in place in "predestines." The former gives the impression that God sees what we will freely choose, whereas the latter makes it sound as if God has a role in determining our fate.
 
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sdowney717

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not forsee, the word says those HE foreknew HE also did prdestinate to be Christians

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

forseeing implies more of your choices, foreknowing implies more of God's choosings.

4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction.


Even Peter says God choose whom he wil make a Christian
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.


guess what, exiles and scattered implies sojourning as in this world is not your home. the word of the Lord has so much meaning for all times. Quite a wonderful revealing of the love and power of God toward's his elect.
 
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Cappadocious

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It just seems like the term "forsees" should be used in place in "predestines." The former gives the impression that God sees what we will freely choose, whereas the latter makes it sound as if God has a role in determining our fate.
God does have a role. He has imputed to us what he knew we would want since before the foundation of the world, but he has done this in accordance with what we would freely desire. God is God; he can read a book and take into account the desires of the characters before that book is even written. He truly knows and truly gives according to true freedom, according to his Divine Humility. It's a paradox, but God is a God of paradoxes.

From a Semitic perspective, even to hate God, God has to give you that hateful heart you ask for. That's why he has to harden Pharaoh's heart for him.

That's why in the Prayer of Ephraim the Syrian during Lent, we pray "O Lord and Master of my life, do not give me the spirit of sloth, deceit, despair, lust of power, worthless talk..."
 
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sdowney717

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"Foreknew" is expressive not merely of foreseeing a thing, but implies in this place a previous purpose or plan.

Foreknow is also implying an involved active personal connection vs foreseeing.
To know something intimately like Adam knew Eve.
Foreknow as in God personally formed us in the womb to belong to him.


Jeremiah 1
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”



Barnes' Notes on the Bible

Which he foreknew - The word "foreknew" is expressive not merely of foreseeing a thing, but implies in this place a previous purpose or plan; see the note at Romans 8:29. The meaning of the passage is simply, God has not cast off those whom he had before purposed or designed to be his people. It is the declaration of a great principle of divine government that God is not changeable: and that he would not reject those whom he had purposed should be his people. Though the mass of the nation, therefore, should be cast off, yet it would not follow that God had violated any promise or compact; or that he had rejected any whom he had foreknown as his true people. God makes no covenant of salvation with those who are in their sins; and if the unbelieving and the wicked, however many external privileges they may have enjoyed, are rejected, it does not follow that he has been unfaithful to one whom he had foreknown or designated as an heir of salvation. It follows from this, also, that it is one principle of the divine government that God will not reject those who are foreknown or designated as his friends. It is a part of the plan, therefore, that those who are truly renewed shall persevere, and obtain eternal life.

Foreseeing is used in Gal 3:8 which is describing salvation in a less personal way
8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham:
 
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Lukaris

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St John Chrysostom end of Romans 8:28, all of 8:29 & beginning of 8:30:


For the calling was not forced upon them, nor compulsory. All then were called, but all did not obey the call.
Ver. 29. For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the Image of His Son.
See what superb honor! For what the Only-begotten was by Nature, this they also have become by grace. And still he was not satisfied with this calling of them conformed thereto, but even adds another point, that He might be the first-born. And even here he does not come to a pause, but again after this he proceeds to mention another point, Among many brethren. So wishing to use all means of setting the relationship in a clear light. Now all these things you are to take as said of the Incarnation. For according to the Godhead He is Only-begotten. See, what great things He has given unto us! Doubt not then about the future. For he shows even upon other grounds His concern for us by saying, that things were fore-ordered in this way from the beginning. For men have to derive from things their conceptions about them, but to God these things have been long determined upon, and from of old He bare good-will toward us (πρὸς ἡμἅς διέκειτο), he says.
Ver. 30. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified.
Now He justified them by the regeneration of the laver. And whom He justified, them He also glorified by the gift, by the adoption.
Ver. 31. What shall we then say to these things?
As if he should say, Let me then hear no more about the dangers and the malicious devices from every quarter. For even if some disbelieve the things to come, still they have not a word to say against the good things that have already taken place; as, for instance, the friendship of God towards you from the first, the justifying, the glory. And yet these things He gave you by means seemingly distressing. And those things which you thought to be disgracing, the Cross, scourges, bonds, these are what have set the whole world aright. As then by what Himself suffered, though of aspect forbidding in man's eye, even by these He effected the liberty and salvation of the whole race; so also is He wont to do in regard to those things which you endure, turning your sufferings unto glory and renown for you. If God be for us, who can be against us?

CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 15 on Romans (Chrysostom)
 
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sdowney717

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Of man did God say that men's heart were evil.
I you then being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, will not then the Father give the Holy Spirit to them which ask Him?

The heart is desperately wicked and beyond comprehension, who can understand it?

Of men did God say, His thoughts are only of evil continually from his youth
21 And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth.
men by their evil nature mostly choose wrongly and do it often.
so then while we were yet sinners, He loved us.

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
No one can come to him unless the Father draws him.

43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
and Jesus boldly proclaims this,
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

really a wonderful testimony to the goodness of God towards His elect.
God reaches out to men first, If God did not then no one would come to him. So by your evil nature, you will shrink back from God. And you will never find him by yourself.

After Adam sinned, Adam hid himself in the garden of God. God called out to Adam and God found Adam.
Adam would have rather fled away from the presence of God.

Paul wrote Romans 7
For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.

This is your free will in action, choosing wrongly.

So then Paul goes on and says

21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
 
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