Evidence that would falsify evolution

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It's simply you take variation (mutation) and then expect us to believe that magically becomes a different kind. When every experiment ever done shows merely different breeds (variations) of the same exact Kind.

Either define or stop using this word please. It's not a scientific term, it has no clearly defined contextual meaning, and I have no clue what you're talking about when you say "kind".
 
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DogmaHunter

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It's programmed to behave in a certain manner.

Well, yes... it's programmed to count and map matches...
To save humans the trouble of having to count billions of data points.

Again, it's not programmed to get to a specific result.

It's programmed to expose the underlying patterns. And those patterns happen to be exactly what we would expect if evolution is true.

I can't stress enough how futile and head-in-sand it is to ignore or dispute this.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Either define or stop using this word please. It's not a scientific term, it has no clearly defined contextual meaning, and I have no clue what you're talking about when you say "kind".

You don't want to understand.

Do you know what a breed is? It's not an accepted scientific term either, but you have no problem understanding and accepting it's contextual meaning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breed

"Despite the centrality of the idea of "breeds" to animal husbandry and agriculture, no single, scientifically accepted definition of the term exists."

So you know they are a central part in animal and plant husbandry - you just don't have a scientific definition of them. Just as you know Kinds are a central part of life itself - you also simply do not have a scientific definition of them.

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/4327.htm

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kind

I have no clear idea what you mean when you say species. Was the first form of life a species? Then would that not make everything after an infraspecific taxa according to evolution?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species

"Presence of specific locally adapted traits may further subdivide species into "infraspecific taxa" such as subspecies (and in botany other taxa are used, such as varieties, subvarieties, and formae)."

So how does one get separate species from a single species? They would all be merely infraspecific taxa.



Regardless, nor do you have a single set definition.

"While in many cases this definition is adequate, the difficulty of defining species is known as the species problem."

What - supposed to be easier to identify different Kinds than it is species????

I'll put it as plain as I can for you: All Felidae are of one Kind. All Canidae are of one Kind. All Suidae are of one Kind. There are just different breeds and variations - different formae - within that Kind. Be it a Lion or a Tiger - a English Mastiff or a Husky. All of the same Kind. Beyond that line there exists no evidence linking anything except viruses that bring foreign genomes to the host. And has nothing to do with any imaginary heredity except as that foreign genome is passed on and is used by the host.
 
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The Cadet

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You don't want to understand.

Do you know what a breed is? It's not an accepted scientific term either, but you have no problem understanding and accepting it's contextual meaning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breed

"Despite the centrality of the idea of "breeds" to animal husbandry and agriculture, no single, scientifically accepted definition of the term exists."

Yes, because breeds actually has a well-establish meaning. If I were to ask you what a "breed" of dog is, you could give me a pretty decent definition, and at least make it clear what you're talking about.

Just as you know Kinds are a central part of life itself - you also simply do not have a scientific definition of them.

Yeah, except that "kind" isn't anywhere near as narrowly defined as "breed".

I have no clear idea what you mean when you say species. Was the first form of life a species? Then would that not make everything after an infraspecific taxa according to evolution?

Say what you will about the problems of defining a species at the dawn of life, but the term at least has a fairly clear meaning in some regards. The term itself is defined, the problem is that in some cases, its meaning becomes rather problematic - for example, the discussion of species that can interbreed becomes rather problematic when talking about eukaryotes which do not reproduce sexually. But kind is simply undefined. It's not simply a matter of "we're trying to define it but nature doesn't fit into nice neat boxes the way we'd like it to".

Regardless, nor do you have a single set definition.

"While in many cases this definition is adequate, the difficulty of defining species is known as the species problem."

What - supposed to be easier to identify different Kinds than it is species????

See, the problem here is that when scientists talk about species, they typically use it in a way it makes sense. As the wikipedia article says: A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring.

I'll put it as plain as I can for you: All Felidae are of one Kind. All Canidae are of one Kind. All Suidae are of one Kind. There are just different breeds and variations - different formae - within that Kind. Be it a Lion or a Tiger - a English Mastiff or a Husky. All of the same Kind. Beyond that line there exists no evidence linking anything except viruses that bring foreign genomes to the host. And has nothing to do with any imaginary heredity except as that foreign genome is passed on and is used by the host.

Beyond that line there's genetic comparisons, the fossil record, endogenous retroviruses, comparative anatomy... Yes, if you ignore all of the evidence, then there's no evidence.

But coming back to "kinds", you just described three families. So does kind mean "family"? Because I've heard others describe it as far more analogous to species. You see my problem here?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Yes, because breeds actually has a well-establish meaning. If I were to ask you what a "breed" of dog is, you could give me a pretty decent definition, and at least make it clear what you're talking about.
I thought I did. Did I not say all Felidae were one Kind? All Canidae? All suidae? How much clearer do you need it to be?



Yeah, except that "kind" isn't anywhere near as narrowly defined as "breed".
neither are your Kindom, Phyla and domains - while ignoring the first life had to be a species unto itself.



Say what you will about the problems of defining a species at the dawn of life, but the term at least has a fairly clear meaning in some regards. The term itself is defined, the problem is that in some cases, its meaning becomes rather problematic - for example, the discussion of species that can interbreed becomes rather problematic when talking about eukaryotes which do not reproduce sexually. But kind is simply undefined. It's not simply a matter of "we're trying to define it but nature doesn't fit into nice neat boxes the way we'd like it to".

Have you ever seen two Kinds reproduce??? Then what are you complaining about - Have you ever seen anything above Kind reproduce with another anything or even crossed them in the lab? Then what are you complaining about a scientific definition that has fit all experimental data????



See, the problem here is that when scientists talk about species, they typically use it in a way it makes sense. As the wikipedia article says: A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring.

Kind after Kind doesn't make sense to you even though we have never observed anything else? I see now why you are confused about variation and different breeds of the same Kinds.

I see now why in the fossil record you confuse different breeds of the same animal as a separate species. If we had never seen a living dog you would be trying to tell me about how they were different species and proved your evolutionary tree. Too bad they ain't extinct huh.

It's understandable given that they can go from this and this to this in one generation. So it is not surprising in the fossil record you claim links when those links are nothing but breeds of the same exact Kind. But of course that means you first have to accept science and how we know reproduction works - not how people want it to be.


Beyond that line there's genetic comparisons, the fossil record, endogenous retroviruses, comparative anatomy... Yes, if you ignore all of the evidence, then there's no evidence.

But coming back to "kinds", you just described three families. So does kind mean "family"? Because I've heard others describe it as far more analogous to species. You see my problem here?

The genetic evidence only can be dated to a few hundred years - since you have no DNA samples of anything old. To claim you can tell that a gene has been in the tree for millions of years is pure wishful thinking. You do understand that even the finding of soft tissue contradicts your claims of age do you not? The fossil record shows nothing but Kind after Kind - all T-Rex are T-Rex from the first to the last.

The fossil record shows why they have incorrectly classified 2 of every 3 fossils found.


But the science suddenly isn't good enough anymore?

Sure I see your problem - species problem - so you should see ours as well. All cats - no matter what species you care to place them in are of one Kind. We know this because Lions and Tigers can mate and give birth to fertile offspring. Despite the fact science lists them as separate species - even if breeding and producing fertile offspring is the prime definition of species. So you see my problem????

So we got to use your definition when science clearly can't even get it right for two creatures capable of breeding and producing fertile offspring???
 
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The Cadet

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I thought I did. Did I not say all Felidae were one Kind? All Canidae? All suidae? How much clearer do you need it to be?

So a kind is a family. Gotcha. Why not just use the established term of "family"? See, the reason you get such a knee-jerk reaction to "kinds" is that creationists like Kent Hovind use it as a "get out of argument free card" by never clearly defining it, and thus never needing to defend their view that one "kind" cannot turn into another "kind".


I see now why in the fossil record you confuse different breeds of the same animal as a separate species. If we had never seen a living dog you would be trying to tell me about how they were different species and proved your evolutionary tree. Too bad they ain't extinct huh.

Given only the skulls? Yeah, classification errors could very well be made. I'm not entirely sure of the range of techniques paleontologists use to identify fossils, however, so I'd rather not make definitive statements on that subject.

The genetic evidence only can be dated to a few hundred years - since you have no DNA samples of anything old. To claim you can tell that a gene has been in the tree for millions of years is pure wishful thinking. You do understand that even the finding of soft tissue contradicts your claims of age do you not? The fossil record shows nothing but Kind after Kind - all T-Rex are T-Rex from the first to the last.

The point of genetic evidence is that it shows phenomenal homology. Again. Animals which, morphologically, are similar to each other, also have a clear genetic similarity. It confirms the same cladograms that essentially every other field of biology provides, the same cladograms which very heavily imply common descent.

The fossil record shows why they have incorrectly classified 2 of every 3 fossils found.


But the science suddenly isn't good enough anymore?

2/3? That's not a claim Horner makes in this video and I'd kind of appreciate a source on that.

Sure I see your problem - species problem - so you should see ours as well. All cats - no matter what species you care to place them in are of one Kind. We know this because Lions and Tigers can mate and give birth to fertile offspring. Despite the fact science lists them as separate species - even if breeding and producing fertile offspring is the prime definition of species. So you see my problem????

There are numerous definitions of species. It was believed until fairly recently that Ligers were sterile; as for the species problem, it's not for nothing that the NCSE lists 26 different definitions of the term.
 
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DogmaHunter

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So how does one get separate species from a single species? They would all be merely infraspecific taxa.

Species are dificult to define, ironically, because of gradual evolution.
Just like no latin speaking mother ever gave birth to an italian speaking baby.

In the long, gradual, evolution of latin into spanish, italian and french... at what point can we no longer speak of latin and should we start to speak about those other languages?

There is no single generation to be found anywhere that speaks italian while the previous generation spoke latin.

The same goes with species. At what point does a species turn into another species, when every newborn is of the same species as its direct ancestors?
Just like every newborn spoke the language of its direct ancestors. Nevertheless, the latin of old, evolved into the french, italian and spanish of today.

Having explained that, which definition of species is being used is apparant from context. "kind" however... not so much. It can mean anything and everything.
Whenever I see discussions centering around "kind", the only use of the word seems to be to move the goalpost.

I'll put it as plain as I can for you: All Felidae are of one Kind. All Canidae are of one Kind. All Suidae are of one Kind. There are just different breeds and variations - different formae - within that Kind. Be it a Lion or a Tiger - a English Mastiff or a Husky. All of the same Kind. Beyond that line there exists no evidence linking anything except viruses that bring foreign genomes to the host. And has nothing to do with any imaginary heredity except as that foreign genome is passed on and is used by the host.

Heredity is imaginary in your opinion?

No wonder you can't grasp a simple concept like evolution...
 
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Justatruthseeker

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So a kind is a family. Gotcha. Why not just use the established term of "family"? See, the reason you get such a knee-jerk reaction to "kinds" is that creationists like Kent Hovind use it as a "get out of argument free card" by never clearly defining it, and thus never needing to defend their view that one "kind" cannot turn into another "kind".

Because you are not consistent in your listing of families. Birds have no family listing at all. Instead the family is called "class."

If they were even partially consistent we might - but since Kind was used first - I see no reason to accept an inconsistent labeling system.


Given only the skulls? Yeah, classification errors could very well be made. I'm not entirely sure of the range of techniques paleontologists use to identify fossils, however, so I'd rather not make definitive statements on that subject.

Only skulls? Most classifications were made from mere fragments - so the chances of error are increased exponentially. But you don't mind relying on those who have chosen to make definitive statements on those mere fragments which are not enough evidence for you to make a definitive statement.


The point of genetic evidence is that it shows phenomenal homology. Again. Animals which, morphologically, are similar to each other, also have a clear genetic similarity. It confirms the same cladograms that essentially every other field of biology provides, the same cladograms which very heavily imply common descent.

Except those similarities are what one would expect being the same designer made them all. being all are made from the exact same protons, neutron and electrons that make up everything else. The genome contains foreign material from other Kinds because those viruses bring it with them and transfer it to the host. The host merely uses what the virus brings and propagates it to the next generation - with no lines of actual decent except when it may have been inserted by the virus into the host.



[quote2/3? That's not a claim Horner makes in this video and I'd kind of appreciate a source on that.[/quote]

Apparently you didn't count. For every one species - he found two incorrectly classified as a separate species. Watch it again. Count. It is quite evident - but then you were not bothering to count the number that was incorrectly classified were you, because you didn't want to have to accept the answer.



There are numerous definitions of species. It was believed until fairly recently that Ligers were sterile; as for the species problem, it's not for nothing that the NCSE lists 26 different definitions of the term.

So basically anytime evidence goes against you, you have 25 more backup definitions to put into play to keep the theory from falsification - even if it was the falsified one you relied on before? 26, and you insist we have one definition of Kind????? I fail to see how this supports your view that Kind is not adequately defined when you have 26 different ones of your own and so don't know which one to use except whatever sounds best at the time.
 
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lasthero

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Apparently you didn't count. For every one species - he found two incorrectly classified as a separate species. Watch it again. Count. It is quite evident - but then you were not bothering to count the number that was incorrectly classified were you, because you didn't want to have to accept the answer.
No, Justa, that's not what he says. This is what he says.

And there are 12 of themthat everyone recognizes --I mean the 12 primary dinosaursthat went extinct.And so we will evaluate them.And that's sort of what I've been doing.So my students, my staff,we've been cutting them open.Now as you can imagine,cutting open a leg bone is one thing,but when you go to a museumand say, "You don't mind if I cut openyour dinosaur's skull do you?"they say, "Go away."(Laughter)So here are 12 dinosaurs.

Twelve. Just twelve. That's all he went over. We've found way more than just twelve dinosaur fossils, and we've found WAY more fossils than just thousands. He, at no point in the video, makes the claim that 2 out of every 3 fossils are misindentified, nor could he - millions of fossils have been found, and he hasn't looked at them all.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Species are dificult to define, ironically, because of gradual evolution.

Except you see no gradualism anywhere in the fossil record. You do not even see it in current life where this Chinook comes from this Husky and this English Mastiff.

Your theory matches nothing observed.


Just like no latin speaking mother ever gave birth to an italian speaking baby.



In the long, gradual, evolution of latin into spanish, italian and french... at what point can we no longer speak of latin and should we start to speak about those other languages?

There is no single generation to be found anywhere that speaks italian while the previous generation spoke latin.

Now something that must be learned is equated to evolution? Strawman alert.


The same goes with species. At what point does a species turn into another species, when every newborn is of the same species as its direct ancestors?
Good question, so why do you claim it does - despite everything born is the same species as it's ancestor? So you believe despite the evidence?

Just like every newborn spoke the language of its direct ancestors. Nevertheless, the latin of old, evolved into the french, italian and spanish of today.

Strawman alert. So then shouldn't those newborns become something else as they grow up - even if we never see them doing so?

Having explained that, which definition of species is being used is apparant from context. "kind" however... not so much. It can mean anything and everything.

Says the guy with 26 definitions of species. Kind means only one thing.


Whenever I see discussions centering around "kind", the only use of the word seems to be to move the goalpost.

Says the guy with 26 definitions so he can pick and choose and move those goalposts whenever the evidence falsifies one. Got 25 more to go - move them posts.



Heredity is imaginary in your opinion?

No wonder you can't grasp a simple concept like evolution...

Hereditary is passing down genes that already exist. No genes that never existed in either parent is ever passed to the next generation. And as you noted all offspring are of the same species as the parents - despite your claim this process magically causes new species to pop into existence. What you claim matches none of the actual genetic experiments.

And like those dogs, you just misinterpret a new breed as a new species because you have no living examples in which to judge by because you ignore how life propagates in the here and now where it is observed. Using a completely unseen process to cause it in an unseen past, where even the fossil record fails to match that claim.
 
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- millions of fossils have been found, and he hasn't looked at them all.

If just a bone is found ... say a leg bone ... is that considered a fossil?

Or does the whole plant or animal have to be found?

If just a leg bone is found, then what happens if later they find the other leg bone (or the skull)?

Is that considered two fossils, or just one?

On the other hand, what if they find a whole dinosaur?

Is that considered finding 300 fossils?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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If just a bone is found ... say a leg bone ... is that considered a fossil?

Or does the whole plant or animal have to be found?

If just a leg bone is found, then what happens if later they find the other leg bone (or the skull)?

Is that considered two fossils, or just one?

On the other hand, what if they find a whole dinosaur?

Is that considered finding 300 fossils?

Yes, the fragments are considered fossils. The fossils can make up a creature. A creature consiting of 300 fossils would still be one creature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil

"are the preserved remains or traces of animals, plants, and other organisms from the remote past."

They are from the remote past because no cataclysmic event has occurred in the present to create fossilization. Only buried remains begin to fossilize. This is why we do not see thousands of buffalo fossils on the North American continent.
 
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Yes, the fragments are considered fossils.

So then someone who says we have found a million fossils really doesn't mean that much, does it?

It take it, it's just a way of trying to make the gap in the missing links sound like it's not so large.
 
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Subduction Zone

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So then someone who says we have found a million fossils really doesn't mean that much, does it?

It take it, it's just a way of trying to make the gap in the missing links sound like it's not so large.
That is mere foolishness on your part. Most fossils are complete. Yes, many land based fossils are partial, but we still have enough to more than "prove" the theory of evolution. And worse yet creationists have no explanation for the fossils at all. Every attempted explanation has been shown to be fatally wrong.
 
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Yes, many land based fossils are partial, but we still have enough to more than "prove" the theory of evolution.

Interesting comment.

Do you believe that, if we had no fossils at all, that biological evolution would still stand?
 
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Interesting comment.

Do you believe that, if we had no fossils at all, that biological evolution would still stand?
Of course. Fossils are merely the evidence for evolution that is most obvious to amateurs. There are several other sources of evidence and biologists will argue that the evidence given by them is stronger than that of the fossil record.

No real scientist has any doubts about the theory of evolution. Yes, you can find a few nuts and whackjobs, but you can find those in any subject that you care to bring up. Look at how many times specific dates were given by Christians that went to far in their beliefs for the end of the world. The fact that you can find a few nuts that disagree with the vast majority does not mean that the nuts have any validity in their beliefs at all.
 
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So then someone who says we have found a million fossils really doesn't mean that much, does it?

It take it, it's just a way of trying to make the gap in the missing links sound like it's not so large.


Interesting comment.

Do you believe that, if we had no fossils at all, that biological evolution would still stand?

Yes, and not in the least. And don't forget that 2 of every 3 is in all likelihood an incorrect classification of the fossils they do have. And when 3 are rolled into 1 species - the gaps begin to grow ever larger.
 
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Ye and not in the least. And don't forget that 2 of every 3 is in all likelihood an incorrect classification of the fossils they do have. And when 3 are rolled into 1 species - the gaps begin to grow ever larger.
It's just a game of connect the dots, and apparently evolutionists want us to think there are more dots than lines.
 
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It's just a game of connect the dots, and apparently evolutionists want us to think there are more dots than lines.

Yes, and then other dots are taking parts of other dots and inserting those parts into dots, but all the dots are related through hereditary. There's so many dots you can draw whatever you like.

EDIT: But yes in evolution the fossil record now takes away from the number of dots - so that dots inserting parts of other dots to other dots is the only thing left.
 
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